Re: Oh Micro, Where Art Thou?
Phoenix, Corruptor, Viking, Banshee, Battlecruiser, Carrier, Brood Lord. He also brings up a few ground units, such as Hellions and Archons.
If you want to bring the conversation around the Phoenix exclusively, I already said I'm 100% for changes to this unit. And the Corruptor, too. They're both gimmicky and inelegant and have a thing or two to learn from the Viking.
That said, where I disagree with the OP is the very crux of his argument. He SAYS that what made BW air great is that it had superb risk vs. reward, but then goes on to provide examples of units like Corsairs "cheaply" -- IN HIS OWN WORDS! -- picking off aggressive enemy air units thanks to their instant reaction time. There IS no risk, only reward.
SC2 introduces substantial risk via "slow" air units, and he doesn't like that. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want maneuverability just say so, but don't drag high concepts like "risk vs. rewards" into an argument where it makes no fucking sense.
That's directed at the author, of course. ;) Again, I agree with him on specific points, but lots of people agree with him about the Phoenix and the Corruptor. It's not really him they agree with, that's just common opinion. His article isn't about those two units, it's about some huge glaring issue with all of SC2. And it isn't there.
Re: Oh Micro, Where Art Thou?
I couldnt get past the first paragraph. This is beyond my reading capacity. I dont read that much in a year... I wont start now...
Re: Oh Micro, Where Art Thou?
The problem I see with phoenix in the air isnt so much the glide attack, its that there seems to be a rather large delay in the attack actually beginning. For some reason or another, they turn around, aim at the target, then attack instead of turning and attacking at the same time.
Trying to demonstrate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBUMGw9ayWo
Meanwhile, units that dont have to turn to target (ie: a force charging in) seem to have no delay and get the added benefit of the glide to put them even closer.
Re: Oh Micro, Where Art Thou?
OP said the game's missing micro units like the vulture/muta/corsair instant attacks.
Don't reapers shoot like that? They can be microed like mad to kill zealots.
I agree somewhat that damage inflation is a big issue, where they're giving units higher bonus damage to make up for their weaknesses, creating a defined Rock-Paper-Scissors scenario rather than allowing micro to define the outcomes (Colossus ez-mode mass killing vs out-microing a reaver scarab to have it explode harmlessly)
I've had scenarios where I've made certain hard counters and still got overwhelmed by pure numbers. 10 void rays couldn't stop 30+ roaches burrow-moving towards my peon lines. Hellions need to be made in huge numbers to be effective hydra counters. Some of the current mechanics just don't seem to be tuned right.
Re: Oh Micro, Where Art Thou?
interesting read. i generally agree that it'd be cool with some move/shoot micro capabilities, esp for the phoenix.
someone should try to temper with these things on a custom map and see what happens. Autor impels he doesn't think ts possible for the engine... i highly doubt that.
Re: Oh Micro, Where Art Thou?
Hmmm. Maybe this is a little off topic, but I have noticed that the Phoenix is actually rather superb against Zerg in small numbers (of course, the attack animation is horrendous with their delay in actual firing) if there are no mutas to chase them down. Four phoenixes can hunt overlords, lure a ground army away from a queen, then zoom in, grav beam a queen and snipe it out, killing an important macro unit. However this is only against Zerg, not against any other race. For instance, Terran has no central ground unit that really warrants the use of grav beam. Maybe Thor, but that is blocked because of the Thor's massive status. Terran's units, although more expensive than Zerg, are cheap enough that generally the loss of a unit through grav isn't a significant loss (barring the odd Ghost). Against Toss...immortals maybe? It's weird because Protoss's units are supposed to be expensive and powerful, resulting in fewer numbers but with power creep via chrono boost and warp gate Protoss numbers have swelled, again leading to insignificant ground losses.
One major problem that arose from the switch from corsair to phoenix is the splash loss. Light air units are generally massed correct? Especially mutas (which phoenixes just cannot counter). It is a step back to SC, but the addition of a minisplash to air would greatly benefit the phoenix in its role against -light- units. This would also render grav beam less effective in phoenix-only attacks to make up for the addition of minisplash, as the lower damage (and usually a single target is chosen for grav) would result in harder to kill grav'd units.
Unique ability? Remember overload? Good times. This would actually make up for the lack of splash in its normal attack. Also encourages micro for both sides, phoenix controller deciding when and where to use overload (as if I recall correctly phoenix would lose all shields and be "disabled" for a short moment after overload) and enemy dancing away.
Short message for phoenix?
The way that phoenix deals with light units is troublesome, no effective way to kill masses of light air (like mutas, or even vikings. Which seem to kill off phoenixes well enough). Attack animation is a serious problem (gone are the days of even Wraith/Scout missiles), rather slow turning radius, limited use of grav beam (can't seem to use in only phoenix groups, has to be used as disable support for main army), mehs all around.
Re: Oh Micro, Where Art Thou?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Todie
Autor impels he doesn't think ts possible for the engine... i highly doubt that.
Yes. I remember, you could tweak animation cast points, cooldowns, acceleration, deceleration etc. in WC3.. It may be a matter of just tweaking it for the air units.
Re: Oh Micro, Where Art Thou?
I don't agree entirely but I see his point.
It's about making units be able to do more when one gives them attention. From that long read I realized that counters don't have to be damage vs. armor/unittype thing. It can also be about utilizing certain things like maneuverability for one.
Say, if the banshee were given more range for target acquisition, longer channeling time for missile fire, more time to decelerate, then you can say "glide" a missile towards a target in just about the right range.
Now, add a condition that if the banshee's range to the target is > attack range when channeling is done == cancel attack.
Then add to that condition an area range, so that firing doesn't have to be always <= range of banshee to it's target, and we get a good system to allow micro for banshees.
What I'm saying is that, I'm quite curious as to how this could make things more exciting.
What's burning inside his heart somehow has some merit to it, regardless his seemingly over-zealous disposition.
Re: Oh Micro, Where Art Thou?
Re: Oh Micro, Where Art Thou?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pure.Wasted
It becomes a pure army unit. Base harassment becomes almost impossible.
his suggestions were to make it able to base harass
and maybe we are looking at this wrong, maybe hellions are an upgrade of firebats, and reapers are the vultures (exept vultures shoot soda cans)
