Zerg were better off with the Overmind

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Originally Posted by Hawki

Obviously a matter of personal opinion, but how are those bad things? Tosh strikes me as one of the more interesting members of Raynor's crew and the removal of second person is a definate plus in my books.

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Tosh is getting interesting now that we're learning more about him, but for a long, long time he was just a randomly Rastafarian black guy all about "da voodoo an' da curses mon." And coming immediately off of WC3 and WoW, that gets a bit trite.

The artifacts are pretty bleh, because I'm not really (yet) invested in the story surrounding them. "Team up to save the galaxy from an evil beyond comprehension" has sort of been done before (WC3), and it wasn't great the first time around, so I'm a little concerned here. So Blizz better have something more interesting up their sleeves on this one.

The only area where I disagree -- strongly -- is the unnamed second person character. Good riddance.

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

He has this raging hard on for accusing Blizzard of Racism because Tosh + Voodoo doll = racism. He's been crying out about it ever since he the dawn of time.

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It's not racist; not any more racist than the Battlecruiser captain being drunk is racist. It's just that bit too far over the top. But we'll see. Unlike the BC cap, he's got plot lines and such surrounding him, so he might be interesting despite this stuff. :)

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

She acts like it.

Here she's been given world-conquering power, the genetic legacy of a sizable portion of the galaxy, and untold knowledge. And what does she want to do?

Settle her daddy issues with Mengsk and screw random people over for no reason in particular.

She's not interested in plumbing the infinite knowledge that the Zerg have at their disposal. She's not interested in seeing what she can do with the Zerg's genetic makeup. She's not interested in anything even remotely productive.

She's a child with a new toy, seeing whatever she can throw her Zerg at.

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Okay, now let's acknowledge the thing you're completely ignoring:

She wiped out every other powerful faction in the Korpurulu Sector. Because she didn't JUST want revenge on Mengsk and to screw over a bunch of random people for no reason. (Imagine, a bastard character sadistically screwing people over for no reason.)

She also wanted CONTROL. Which is why she killed the Overmind and wiped out the UED and crushed Mengsk. (Screwing him over was just a nice bonus.) So while she might not be exploring the genetic potential and knowledge of the Swarm, she's not just 'resolving her daddy issues'. And even if she were, that doesn't make it a bad story.

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She acts like it.

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People act pretty childish. How is this any more childish then any Dictators living out there fantasy lives toying with the lives of there subjects without any real political motive beyond power and control? Your idea of how people would act is totally romanticized and idealistic.

You know, your going to find so many more dictators and tyrants who pathetically just play around and collectively fuck with there powers for no ultimate meaning or purpose. There are so many more Caligula's and Nero's and Jim Jongs then there are Hitlers. Except you'd probably say something like "Hitler was just a child and decided to kill jews because he got flunked out of a predominantly jewish art school". Which is completely stupid, though it undoubtedly shaped his personality and bias, just like Mengsks betrayal shaped kerrigan.


How is blizzard doing anything wrong by realistically portraying a villain like a actual human being with motives and complex personalities? Not all villains have to be http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ain.DoctorDoom.

The only argument you could make would be that through humanizing them, they cannot play there role as non-human representations of pure evil, which case thats the entire freaking point because you are suppose to at some point, sympathize with Kerrigan considering she is going to be the protagonist of a 25 something length campaign. Moreover, your not even against that because the bulk of your previous argument was that how she COULD BE a sympathetic and complex character even with the overmind, in which you subsequently call childish and stupid.

She's a far more complex character then "angsty teen"

Also, your entirely wrong in on

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She's not interested in plumbing the infinite knowledge that the Zerg have at their disposal. She's not interested in seeing what she can do with the Zerg's genetic makeup. She's not interested in anything even remotely productive.

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Wtf do you think she's been doing between brood war and SC2?

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Originally Posted by Taoo

People rise to power all the time that make, in hindsight, genuinely stupid decisions; George W. Bush - Invading Iraq on one faulty intelligence report?

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One faulty intelligence report?
How about the other way around.

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Originally Posted by Taoo

Or General Custer getting himself slaughtered when the Gatling gun had just been developed and was readily at hand?

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He was a Lieutenant Colonel.
Nobody is saying that Custer was a tactical genius, though.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

She acts like it.

Here she's been given world-conquering power, the genetic legacy of a sizable portion of the galaxy, and untold knowledge. And what does she want to do?

Settle her daddy issues with Mengsk and screw random people over for no reason in particular.

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Random people?

It was established that she needed Mengsk's Psi Emitters, and possibly the troops he, Raynor, and Fenix had at their disposal.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

She's not interested in plumbing the infinite knowledge that the Zerg have at their disposal. She's not interested in seeing what she can do with the Zerg's genetic makeup. She's not interested in anything even remotely productive.

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Hey, all in a day's work, man. It's been established that she's investigating how to properly infest Terrans, she's building up her Broods to combat the Xel Naga threat...

And you're forgetting that she wasn't in control of the Zerg during Brood War!
This took place days, if not weeks after the fall of the Overmind. The other Cerebrates were in control, she only had a fraction of the Swarm under her claws. Using, abusing, and backstabbing her enemies was her way of getting control over the Swarms. And she was only successful At the third-to-last level in the game.

I mean, come ON! You're expecting someone who was practically the underdog the whole time to be unraveling the secrets of the universe?

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

I have this book called "How not to write a novel." It's basically a list of horrible writing techniques, why they're horrible, and how to avoid them.

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Heh, I searched through all of Hastings and Barnes&Noble for that book. Are you reading it (And cruising through TvTropes and possibly Limyaael's rants) because you're a hopeful writer, or because you like picking stories apart?

Just out of curiosity.

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

He has this raging hard on for accusing Blizzard of Racism because Tosh + Voodoo doll = racism. He's been crying out about it ever since he the dawn of time.

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ah pandontheo, as usual you have nothing meaningful or correct to offer the discussion. it's not tosh + voodoo doll= racism, it's mindless conflation of reggae + rastafarianism + "voodoo"= racism. if you weren't so complacent and obtuse you might notice it as well, but whatever. obviously it's not quite as bad as some racist depictions (no shit!) so don't try to paint me with the "zomg he's taking offence at nothing" brush.

i find it depressing that blizzard are so willing to use questionable archetypes nowadays and a lot of people don't even notice :)

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

She's not interested in plumbing the infinite knowledge that the Zerg have at their disposal. She's not interested in seeing what she can do with the Zerg's genetic makeup. She's not interested in anything even remotely productive.

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exactly, and that's good. infinite knowledge and genetic makeup aren't interesting. who cares about all that, really? that's why the sc1 terran campaign was so good, because it was a simple story about human characters told well. that was before blizzard felt the need to make absolutely everything they create into a boring mythology about ancient powers and magic artifacts.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

I have this book called "How not to write a novel." It's basically a list of horrible writing techniques, why they're horrible, and how to avoid them.

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i bet that every single technique this guy tells his readers not to use has been used brilliantly in an acclaimed masterpiece. :)

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i bet that every single technique this guy tells his readers not to use has been used brilliantly in an acclaimed masterpiece.

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It does lol, I also read it. Its merit though isn't in citing it in debates and saying "this book says x plot convention is retarded", but rather, reading about why it is conventionally retarded, and thinking for yourself how artists who have used it made it work.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

And Kerrigan isn't 16... and she didn't angst about Mengsk, she just teamed up with him, betrayed him, wiped out what was left of his entire empire, and then marooned him on his ruined planet. I fail to see how that's 'angsting'.

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Yeah she did. Read the opening of Shadow Hunters (the excerpt). Angst galore against Mengsk, and the Overmind. Do I need to post that excerpt from Shadow Hunters again?

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Originally Posted by Kimera757

Yeah she did. Read the opening of Shadow Hunters (the excerpt). Angst galore against Mengsk, and the Overmind. Do I need to post that excerpt from Shadow Hunters again?

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I don't care. :P

She didn't do it in Brood War, and that's what we're arguing the merits of.

Aldrius: She destroyed Mengsk's military, killed his CiC, devastated Korhal, and admitted to lying to Mengsk and said, in fact, that it was because she was being petty and wanted to get even with him. That's... angsty.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

Aldrius: She destroyed Mengsk's military, killed his CiC, devastated Korhal, and admitted to lying to Mengsk and said, in fact, that it was because she was being petty and wanted to get even with him. That's... angsty.

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No it's not. =|

It's not like she's sitting around whining about how Mengsk screwed her over. She's just beaten him at his own game, and now she's telling him why.

Therefore it's proactive. Therefore it's not angsty.

I mean isn't one of the reasons so many people dislike her is that she's smug? Smug is practically the polar opposite of angst.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

No it's not. =|

It's not like she's sitting around whining about how Mengsk screwed her over. She's just beaten him at his own game, and now she's telling him why.

Therefore it's proactive. Therefore it's not angsty.

I mean isn't one of the reasons so many people dislike her is that she's smug? Smug is practically the polar opposite of angst.

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She didn't seem so smug when she said she was tired of slaughter. Also, leaving Mengsk alive... that was just stupid, an obviously emotional response.

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Originally Posted by Kimera757

She didn't seem so smug when she said she was tired of slaughter. Also, leaving Mengsk alive... that was just stupid, an obviously emotional response.

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There's a difference between angst and issues. Kerrigan is like a yarn of issues; you start examining any single one and you get tangled inside and there ain't no comin' out. :p But that's not really angst. Angst is when you're whining, but your bite's louder than your bark is tough.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

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I mean isn't one of the reasons so many people dislike her is that she's smug? Smug is practically the polar opposite of angst.

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Nah, because she is a smug woman.

Dudes that are smug are cool and awesome, but when someone with lady parts is smug they are emotional and angsty. ( So far she has such parts left. )

To be honest emo and angsty are way overused terms these days. It applies to everything that has a shred of emotion it seems? Raynor is an emo drinker, Zeratul was emo after slaying his own matriarch, and so on. Its a rather dull and boring point of view in my perspective. And too selectively used.

I do have the creeping feeling they going to WOTLK lich king her in starcraft 2 tho. The "Oh damn!, Im going to get you next time raynor, NEXT TIME!" kind of thing. Would still have more character then the Overmind of course. Since it doesnt have any. It only had the best voice in all of starcraft.

Also, why are characters only questionable archetypes when they arent white? Is that one of those american PC things?

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Originally Posted by hiru

Its a rather dull and boring point of view in my perspective. And too selectively used.

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I think you mean "not used selectively enough." ;) And I agree. Which leads to page-long debates over semantics, when everyone actually agrees on the particulars.

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Originally Posted by hiru

Nah, because she is a smug woman.

Dudes that are smug are cool and awesome, but when someone with lady parts is smug they are emotional and angsty. ( So far she has such parts left. )

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But yet people call Zeratul and Raynor angsty and emo, too... including yourself.

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Also, why are characters only questionable archetypes when they arent white? Is that one of those american PC things?

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The Overmind isn't even human, while Kerrigan and Raynor are both white.

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Originally Posted by Kimera757

But yet people call Zeratul and Raynor angsty and emo, too... including yourself.

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I think he was being ironic. Trying to emphasize how people use the term 'emo' and 'angsty' too loosely.

And Raynor is neither emo nor angsty. He's more like the classic example of: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ghtInSourArmor

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The Overmind isn't even human, while Kerrigan and Raynor are both white.

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No she isnt! :mad: It's obvious she's a light-skinned black woman. Where else would she get an ass like that!?

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Originally Posted by phazonjunkie

No she isnt! :mad: It's obvious she's a light-skinned black woman. Where else would she get an ass like that!?

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And she got her green eyes and red hair from her father, who has the most Irish name you could come up with...

Also, Nova's white (probably Italian), and she's got a nice-looking ass.

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Also, Nova's white (probably Italian), and she's got a nice-looking ass.

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Lot's of women with Mediterranean descent do, so that's not really saying much.:D

But back on topic. It should also be noted that Kerrigan actually has, to an extent continued the Overmind's 'prime directive' of evolving and advancing the swarm. But that is only one objective among many, and only on her terms.

Kerrigan's human side makes her, if nothing else, much less predictable, which I think makes for a much more dynamic campaign.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

There's a difference between angst and issues. Kerrigan is like a yarn of issues; you start examining any single one and you get tangled inside and there ain't no comin' out. :p But that's not really angst. Angst is when you're whining, but your bite's louder than your bark is tough.

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That would be teenage angst, or emoretard angst.

Angst just means persistent internal suffering. Kerrigan is probably Angsty, but its incredibly repressed.

So, she's depressed and repressed. Wouldn't that just make her pressed? ;)

Hey, hey. If you're going to talk about an ass, you must mention mine (lol). I have the Epic Black AssTM.

And as to why they have good asses, it's because games generally cater to guys and since white woman (people) tend to be the majority, you get white woman with epic asses and bewbs.

Need for hot women + white majority - most minorities = white women with epic asses and bewbs.

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Originally Posted by mr. peasant

So, she's depressed and repressed. Wouldn't that just make her pressed? ;)

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Lol.

As for Kerrigan, she is like a little kid with toys. She toys around with people and doesn't really do anything beyond that (so far). I bet you that, somewhere, there is an Overlord that is doing the "Overlord Drill" out of frustration.

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As for Kerrigan, she is like a little kid with toys. She toys around with people and doesn't really do anything beyond that (so far). I bet you that, somewhere, there is an Overlord that is doing the "Overlord Drill" out of frustration.

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Except destroying everybody's forces and taking over the entire sector, sure. :P

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

Except destroying everybody's forces and taking over the entire sector, sure. :P

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Lol. She destroyed everyone's forces out of retaliation and self defense (I'm thinking of when the three fleets came to destroy her). She left Mengsk a bit of 'scraps' so that she could probably toy with him again. She's still playing - toying - with them, at least to me.

Although even to this day, I still find it hilarious when Duran ditched her just before the massive attack. Classic betrayal. :D

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Originally Posted by Sarov

Lol. She destroyed everyone's forces out of retaliation and self defense (I'm thinking of when the three fleets came to destroy her). She left Mengsk a bit of 'scraps' so that she could probably toy with him again. She's still playing - toying - with them, at least to me.

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Or... she knows that Mengsk, Raynor and the Protoss are currently of no threat to her (and that she can squash them before they do) and realises that they might be of use to her in the future. They could be made into allies, fodder or at the very least diversions.

We're sorting ethnic groups by the geometry of their badonkadonk.
Plus one for Humanity.

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Originally Posted by mr. peasant

Or... she knows that Mengsk, Raynor and the Protoss are currently of no threat to her (and that she can squash them before they do) and realises that they might be of use to her in the future. They could be made into allies, fodder or at the very least diversions.

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Eh, same principle as Russia and Poland? "Any invasion that comes through is going to have to wade through those guys first, giving me time to get my armies alerted."

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They could be made into allies

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It'll be a sad day indeed when she can convince her enemies to ally with her again after her epic betrayal that left them all in ruins, a day they are likely never to forget.

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

It'll be a sad day indeed when she can convince her enemies to ally with her again after her epic betrayal that left them all in ruins, a day they are likely never to forget.

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Yeah; 'fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.':mad:

Well it'll probably be like what happened the first time, except they'll have even less of a choice.

Or she'll just use them in some way that doesn't involve teaming up with them.

Why she has been quiet for 4 years is something that has me intrigued. I hope they don’t just hand wave it but have a good reason for it.

Probably the "threat on the horizon" thing mentioned at the end of the Brood War. A threat that, judging by her warnings to Zeratul and Raynor, she has some insight into.

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Originally Posted by Rake

Why she has been quiet for 4 years is something that has me intrigued. I hope they don’t just hand wave it but have a good reason for it.

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Theres a whole trilogy of books set for the 4 year gap inbetween the games.