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How about "the Zerg Campaign in SC1 is by far the least interesting of all StarCraft campaigns."Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Still reasonable? Cause it is exactly that. All three vanilla campaigns could be tremendously improved upon. But that doesn't mean 'The Overmind' isn't also fundamentally, irreversibly flawed.
I am stilling not bought on the idea of Kerrigan not having her free will. Zasz was constantly suspicious of her and while she could do nothing to hurt the Overmind directly, that doesn't mean she could hurt it indirectly. For example not going to Aiur and distracting Raynor while the Overmind reinforced its position.
Another aspect of it is that I can not see why you are so obsessed with the Overmind being incapable of anything interesting, it made Kerrigan for one. That action goes against the nature which is the Zerg, the single mind, the pure essence. To me, it shows that the Overmind begins to deviate from the Xel'naga's original design.
Let's go over some of the "irrelevant" decisions Kerrigan made while "brainwashed" in the vanilla zerg campaign:Quote:
Originally Posted by newcomplex
1) Spared Jim Raynor's life against the Overmind's command that all Terrans should be destroyed.
2) Disobeyed Daggoth's directive to destroy the Garm Brood and went to hunt Tassadar and the Dark Templar instead.
3) Went to increase her powers instead of humbly serving the Overmind, to Zasz's chagrin.
4) In Queen of Blades, she flat out told the Overmind that no, she does not want to go Aiur to lead the battles like the Overmind originally planned, and would rather stay to hunt down the Protoss.
5) In the original game, she effectively got Zasz killed because she fell for Tassadar's diversion (though that was retconned out of queen of blades).
Sure, the Overmind gets to pick what planets to invade, but there's alot more to a StarCraft plot than that. Anything Kerrigan did in Brood War could have been done with the Overmind had the Overmind given Kerrigan control of her own brood and enough freedom, which he already did.
Nobody is saying to make a campaign centered exclusively around the Overmind, just that it would be cool if he were back. There are endless possibilities to make the story interesting by showing interactions between the Overmind's subordinates.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonjunkie
No, I still don't buy this idea that just because of one requirement that characters need to be loyal to a cause will make the story "predictably uninteresting". Nobody has presented any evidence that this is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by pure.Wasted
The Zerg campaign was one of my favorites. :) We should do a poll.Quote:
Originally Posted by pure.Wasted
2: Obedience to the Overmind does not mean obedience to the Overmind's flunkies.Quote:
Let's go over some of the "irrelevant" decisions Kerrigan made while "brainwashed" in the vanilla zerg campaign:
1) Spared Jim Raynor's life against the Overmind's command that all Terrans should be destroyed.
2) Disobeyed Daggoth's directive to destroy the Garm Brood and went to hunt Tassadar and the Dark Templar instead.
3) Went to increase her powers instead of humbly serving the Overmind, to Zasz's chagrin.
4) In Queen of Blades, she flat out told the Overmind that no, she does not want to go Aiur to lead the battles like the Overmind originally planned, and would rather stay to hunt down the Protoss.
5) In the original game, she effectively got Zasz killed because she fell for Tassadar's diversion (though that was retconned out of queen of blades).
3: This is what the Overmind wanted, as he said.
4: Not presented in the game.
5: There is at best a tenuous connection between what Kerrigan was doing with Tassadar and Zasz's death. Maybe there was a stronger connection in the book, but it certainly wasn't mentioned in the game.
And even if there was a connection, Kerrigan, like everyone else, thought Cerebrates couldn't die.
You know what's the most dissapointing of the Zerg campaign: Kerrigan. All the work to protect the crysalis, just to have her emerge. Well, at least that would serve to improve the psionic potential of the swarm. Nope, you have to wait to SC2 for that to happend.Quote:
Originally Posted by pure.Wasted
Kerrigan pre-infestation is a kinda retarded character. She needs psionics to bitch about Raynor wanting to fuck her (with that ass, she should be used to that, anyways), yet still thrusted Mengsk even when he is going to use a Psi Emitter in Tarsonis, while she's holding the Protoss from engaging the Zerg?
Whatever is she after infestation, it's obviously not what her used to be.
The only way i see to justify her sudden change in BW, is to think that the Overmind foreseen his own fate and that of the Swarm, possibly doing all the Aiur stuff to buy time, and put a lot of "locked" knowledge inside Kerrigan's mind, in an attempt for everyone to overlook her until it was too late, and to give the Swarm time to evolve some psionics, which was the original plan when going against the Terrans.
Nicol - your rebuttals can all be dismissed since they don't show how any of Kerrigan's decisions don't have an affect on the plot, which is what I was actually replying to. But let's go through them anyway.
Daggoth is the Overmind's right hand, and often shares the same mind as him. Now it depends on what your definition of flunky is, but it was made clear in the Overmind's first speech that Daggoth and Zasz are more than menial servants:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
"Behold that I shall set you amongst the greatest of my Cerebrates, that you might benefit from their wisdom and experience."
No. The Overmind simply said that Kerrigan can do what she wants. And Zasz said:Quote:
3: This is what the Overmind wanted, as he said.
"You know of our grand mission, Kerrigan. Would you put your personal whims before the will of the Overmind?"
Not the kind of behavior you'd expect from a standard "brainwashed" minion who can't make decisions that impact the plot or go against the will of the swarm.
Hence why I said "In Queen of Blades." =/Quote:
4: Not presented in the game.
But that's not even the point; this kind of stuff could easily be added to the game to work around the Overmind's existence if people decide to bring him back.
Again, if Kerrigan was a good infested minion that had no brain of her own, she would have held off. Zasz, actually being one of these good minions, warned Kerrigan against it.Quote:
5: There is at best a tenuous connection between what Kerrigan was doing with Tassadar and Zasz's death. Maybe there was a stronger connection in the book, but it certainly wasn't mentioned in the game.
And even if there was a connection, Kerrigan, like everyone else, thought Cerebrates couldn't die.
Yeah, the Brood War Zerg campaign seemed contrived to me, almost just like the writers wanted to make Kerrigan look as good as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norfindel
Contrived? Hardly, the original campaign was just dumb. What exactly did you accomplish as a player for the first seven missions within the context of those seven missions.Quote:
Yeah, the Brood War Zerg campaign seemed contrived to me, almost just like the writers wanted to make Kerrigan look as good as possible.
You managed the Overlords affair back home on a character who at the time, held no greater significance at the time until the very last mission, in which case the character you revolved around was ditched.
Do you think Kerrigan wanted to sit home babysitting some zerg nests while the invasion commenced at auir? Doubtful, she was ordered to, and she couldn't disobey. She still has personality, but she doesn't have free will.
Applying this to Starcraft 2, the only possible development of Kerrigan as a character under this framework would be a)She continues to be a reluctant servant of the overmind, ultimately, obeying his orders more or less, in other words, no character development, b)She comes to terms with the overmind of her own accord, which as I said, cheapens the overminds motives, or c)She rebels against the overmind, aka brood war.
I'm pretty serious. I don't think he holds true to any of them, but I believe he has certain ethics that he refuses to compromise. Until he has to anyway. Which is... often.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
He has morals. The demonstration wasn't to show off their new weapon, it was to convince Stukov that they were dealing with unstoppable monstrosities, and the thing they were doing required responsibility and effort, and respect. Stukov had kind of a laid back, apathetic attitude about the whole thing. He'd seen all of this in theory.Quote:
Yeah, he's totally a moral guy :rolleyes:
So Dugalle isn't going 'hey look at these awesome new Zerg things we're going to be controlling'. He's going 'look at these horrible new Zerg things we're going to unleash on fellow human beings'.
And yes, then he flies off without raising a finger to help anybody. He's a hypocrite... but a MORAL hypocrite! Who's bark is more powerful than his bite. Which is probably why he committed suicide.
What evidence does he have besides conjecture? Besides that, Stukov is the one who's disobeyed orders. He didn't destroy the Psi Disruptor. It's his word against Duran's basically, and Duran has solid proof that Stukov's done something treacherous. Or he would.Quote:
Ya know, there's someone who might want to know about a Zerg spy in their midst. Maybe the Admiral?! He hates traitors, and you've got plenty of evidence of a traitor in your midst.
I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, I don't think they gave very good reasons for Stukov not to go to Dugalle with this information (especially considering their friendship), but I can believe that there were reasons he didn't go to him.
He didn't have evidence! What evidence did he have? That Duran let the Zerg through on Aiur? There's no proof of that. That Duran convinced Dugalle to destroy the Psi Disruptor? How is that treasonous? It was Dugalle's decision.Quote:
I'm sorry, but there's no logical way to explain why Stukov didn't go to the Admiral with evidence of Duran's duplicity. The state of the Psi Disruptor wouldn't matter if DuGaulle put a bullet in Duran's head. Going to the Psi Disruptor was Stukov picking up the idiot ball and running a touchdown.
There is proof however that Stukov rebuilt the psi disruptor on braxis despite direct orders to destroy it.
Hell, actually, the reason Stukov DIDN'T go to the Admiral was probably because he actually trusted him (unlike Dugalle apparently). He didn't think he'd send an assassin after him. I guess he underestimated the moral delusion that Dugalle was under.
What Aldaris did wasn't stupid either. It was presumptuous. He didn't trust Zeratul or Artanis to do the right thing (or believe that Raszagal was infested) or maybe he believed that they were infested as well.Quote:
It was almost as stupid as what Aldaris did. Almost.
Or maybe he just hated the Dark Templar and this was the perfect excuse to wipe them out.
There are a hundred reasons Aldaris would not go straight to Zeratul and Artanis to tell them what happened. (Most of them involve Aldaris being a dick) It's pretty unreasonable, but hardly stupid.
Well... her face is on the front cover. And I don't think it's all that contrived. I think Raynor, Zeratul, Fenix and Mengsk all have perfectly good reasons and motivations for working with her.Quote:
Yeah, the Brood War Zerg campaign seemed contrived to me, almost just like the writers wanted to make Kerrigan look as good as possible.
Doing this while you're planet is under attack by giant space aliens is kind of the definition of stupid.Quote:
Or maybe he just hated the Dark Templar and this was the perfect excuse to wipe them out.
Perhaps, but I wouldn't describe it as stupid so much as selfish and near-sighted.Quote:
Originally Posted by newcomplex
Agreed!Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
I'm about as close to asexual as you can get, so your accusation is rather unfounded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Ah, you're a troper too! = DQuote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
And you're wrong. GLaDOS failed one of the major requirements for an Orcus: She wasn't powerful enough to go after you. She was doing what she could: Create insurmountable obstacles and screwing with your head.
And walking through Aperture Science, realizing that the scientists who were presumably watching your every move weren't just hidden but gone was creepy as Hell.
And hey, GLaDOS wasn't just putting you through the maze. She was putting a lot of test subjects through...
For Science!
Haven't played it. On my list now, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Which was why the Overmind was such a lousy villain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
So, Aldaris and the rest of the Conclave wanted Tassadar, far-off Tassadar, dead when the Zerg are mowing through their forces like a school bus through a crowd of kindergartners?
And then, in the final level (Which I've recently replayed) just about nothing happens. Slaughtering the Overmind with two ragtag bunches of Protoss and Terrans when he's had God knows how many weeks to build up his defenses, and it's a cakewalk. Hell, the Second Overmind was tougher to kill, and he was a fledgling weakened by the Psi Disruptor.
Was coding waves upon waves of Zerg forces, designing lousy defensive positions for your troops to use, and creating insane defenses for the Zerg really too much work?
Calling Gladdos a poor villain for being Sauron then deridding the Kerrigan as a poor villain in favor of the Overmind is the most ridiculous assertion you could ever make.
GlaDDOS isn't a Orcus. She is present for every second of the game, constantly interacting with the protagonist. It is this interaction that won Portals acclaim. she's playing with the protagonist. The juxtaposition of a presumed safe testing environment with the malicious nature of GladdoS "tests", and her monotone voice guiding you through it, ultimately to a big pit of fire, that isn't "waiting" for you to come, that's actively driving you forward.
The overmind is the epitome of "orcus". He doesn't do ANYTHING prior to his invasion of Auir, in which all of a sudden he just, literally, teleports onto auir into his next natural progression.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MobileMenace
Then when you mention Kreia, she is the exact role the Overmind could never play, but is exceptionally well suited for Kerrigan. She is exactly the kind of human character that could cause personal tensions and the questioning of moralities.
Why is this stupid?. I want a talking giantsharkelephantQuote:
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No, it creates a lot of stupid. Like a talking Torrasque, for example.
http://sclegacy.com/images/uploaded/...ait_static.jpg
;o
Yes, and it's hard to describe someone as "moral" who will unleash "these horrible new Zerg things" on people.Quote:
He's going 'look at these horrible new Zerg things we're going to unleash on fellow human beings'.
Except, of course, the records of the battle. And the records of his communication logs with Duran. And the player. And pretty much every Terran who was participating in the battle at the time.Quote:
He didn't have evidence!
It may not be enough to get Duran shot on the spot, but it would certainly be enough to have Duran stripped of command and rank pending a formal investigation.
Proof that doesn't exist until Stukov leaves and activates the thing. So it would still have been Stukov's secret had he stayed around.Quote:
There is proof however that Stukov rebuilt the psi disruptor on braxis despite direct orders to destroy it.
No, it's stupid. It may also be selfish and near-sighted, but it's also undeniably stupid.Quote:
Perhaps, but I wouldn't describe it as stupid so much as selfish and near-sighted.
The Overmind is supposed to be everywhere. It is a part of all of the Zerg. The actions of the Swarm are the action of the Overmind, just as the actions of your arm are your actions.Quote:
The overmind is the epitome of "orcus". He doesn't do ANYTHING prior to his invasion of Auir, in which all of a sudden he just, literally, teleports onto auir into his next natural progression.
That's why the whole "talking with the Overmind" stuff was a big, fat load of fail.
Not really. Had he been able to capture Raszagal before Zeratul and Artanis returned, they would have demanded to know the meaning of it and he would have been able to simply tell them of his findings (assuming he's determined that they were simply fools who had been duped as opposed to being controlled by Kerrigan as well) in a peaceful if somewhat arrogant manner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Besides, you have to look at it from his perspective. Shakuras, the Protoss' then last stronghold, was being invaded by Zerg. Raszagal was under the influence of Kerrigan, who was a Zerg. So, as far as he knew, all of this could be some elaborate Zerg trap. Waiting to let it all play out would have been even more foolish.
He has his orders. He's trying to take control of the sector and release it from the hold of aliens and errant dictators.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
I don't think he's a saint, but he certainly has his ethics. Misguided and hypocritical he may be.
I must have missed the scene where they told us Stukov was an omniscient god. With a zerg spy in his ranks Stukov took his garrison to go and protect the one thing he believes is their best shot at defeating the Zerg.Quote:
Proof that doesn't exist until Stukov leaves and activates the thing. So it would still have been Stukov's secret had he stayed around.
I don't have proof of that, but I still don't think Stukov was being an idiot. I doubt he thought that Dugalle would brand him a traitor and go after him, he was just looking to make sure they were ready to deal with the Zerg and his plan backfired.
That's my take on the scene in any case.
Maybe, but I don't think it's the 'bad writing' kind of stupid. More the 'one-dimensional asshole' kind of stupid. It's not his mental capacity that's preventing him from just going to Artanis and Zeratul and telling them their matriarch is under the effects of Kerrigan's control. It's his mustrustful nature and the fact that he was practically BEGGING for an excuse to wipe them out.Quote:
No, it's stupid. It may also be selfish and near-sighted, but it's also undeniably stupid.
Plus there's the fact that they've already agreed to allow Kerrigan into their ranks, despite his warnings.
I wouldn't call it 'an idiot ball' in any case.
Let's assume this is 100% true, and he needed to make sure that the Psi Disruptor was safe ASAP.Quote:
I must have missed the scene where they told us Stukov was an omniscient god. With a zerg spy in his ranks Stukov took his garrison to go and protect the one thing he believes is their best shot at defeating the Zerg.
How long would it have taken to compose an e-mail or a written document package outlining the evidence against Duran before leaving? Or maybe Stukov could have ordered one of his subordinates, like may be the player who knows all of the evidence, to tell DuGalle what's going on. Or, better yet, maybe the player or someone who knew could have taken the initiative and told DuGalle.
Simply disappearing is not a legitimate way of handling the discovery of a traitor.
How is a one-dimensional character not bad writing? And why was he a one-dimensional character? Because there was no other way for the writers to have happen what they wanted to have happen.Quote:
Maybe, but I don't think it's the 'bad writing' kind of stupid. More the 'one-dimensional asshole' kind of stupid.
That's pretty much the definition of the idiot ball: when your plot only works when someone acts like an idiot.
To be honest... the player might not be exactly the best "informer."
Let's take a look at this from a realistic perspective. You are the player, you don't actually see or hear everything that's going on. The LAST thing you heard was that Duran seemed to have pulled out his forces and that Stukov had personal business to take care of.
You aren't Stukov's friend. In fact, you're just a subordinate. Duran is just as likely to be telling the truth to you as is Stukov with such sudden information flooding in. It would probably be best to stay out of the situation until the higher ups decide what to do.
Plenty of good well-written characters are one dimensional. Caricature can be very effective in fiction when it's done properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Because that's how he was established. He was a butthead in Vanilla, he was a butthead in Brood War. If anything they were being consistent.Quote:
And why was he a one-dimensional character? Because there was no other way for the writers to have happen what they wanted to have happen.
No, the definition of an idiot ball is when somebody does something idiotic... FOR NO REASON. Other than just sheer stupidity.Quote:
That's pretty much the definition of the idiot ball: when your plot only works when someone acts like an idiot.
There are plenty of reasons and explanations for at least Aldaris' behaviour. And I can think of some reasonable ones for Stukov...
Let's also look at the fact that YOU go to kill Stukov. Despite having all the same evidence that he does.Quote:
To be honest... the player might not be exactly the best "informer."
The last thing you "heard" was that your forces had to abandon the pursuit of Mengsk because Zerg forces had walked through Duran's position and you had to respond. You know Zerg forces got through; you didn't "hear" it from anyone because you have to stop chasing Mengsk to deal with it.Quote:
Let's take a look at this from a realistic perspective. You are the player, you don't actually see or hear everything that's going on. The LAST thing you heard was that Duran seemed to have pulled out his forces and that Stukov had personal business to take care of.
The Idiot Ball is a plot device. It is used when you need something to happen that would only happen if one or more persons act like idiots.Quote:
No, the definition of an idiot ball is when somebody does something idiotic... FOR NO REASON. Other than just sheer stupidity.
Perhaps, but it has no place in anything you want to be taken seriously.Quote:
Plenty of good well-written characters are one dimensional. Caricature can be very effective in fiction when it's done properly.
That definition is correct. However, when you get right down to it, Starcraft itself is more or less an idiot plot. A lot of the things that happen happened simply in order to move the story in the way Blizzard needed it to despite there being no sense behind it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
For instance, what did the Overmind gain by being on Aiur before conquering it? Why expose itself, especially since it knew that the Protoss had access to methods of permanently killing it and its Cerebrates? Or what about the whole Protoss civil war? Even if the Conclave was a bunch of racist whackjobs, how did they convince the legions of Protoss warriors to go after Tassadar in the midst of an invasion of their home planet? And what about how Fenix and Raynor got caught with no contingency plan when Kerrigan betrayed them despite having previously discussed amongst themselves that Kerrigan could not be trusted and was bound to betray them once they served their purpose?
I'm not specifically denying this, but how can you claim this while deriding Gladdos, who plays the same role?Quote:
The Overmind is supposed to be everywhere. It is a part of all of the Zerg. The actions of the Swarm are the action of the Overmind, just as the actions of your arm are your actions.
That's why the whole "talking with the Overmind" stuff was a big, fat load of fail.
I know what you meant by idiot ball, but honestly, that's one of those pages on TV Tropes I hate. "oh no, a character is acting stupid, and even though what he's actually doing is completely consistent with his pattern of behaviour, and completely consistent with how he was established... THIS IS BAD WRITING. Because he's not acting like an unfeeling, pragmatic robot."Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Plenty of good plotlines involve somebody being an idiot and it NOT being bad writing. I take issue with a lot of examples on that page.
Plenty of famous well-respect movies and literature have exaggerated caricatures in the story. Usually in supporting or villainous roles, but they still exist none-the-less.Quote:
Perhaps, but it has no place in anything you want to be taken seriously.
Usually in comedies, though, come to think of it. But in some more dramatic productions as well. Darth Malak for example, is 90% caricature, but I think he's a pretty well-written one as well.
It was something that involved the process of assimilating the Protoss into the swarm. We don't specifically know what.Quote:
For instance, what did the Overmind gain by being on Aiur before conquering it?
Propaganda? The usual government tools one uses to convince their population of doing something stupid?Quote:
Or what about the whole Protoss civil war? Even if the Conclave was a bunch of racist whackjobs, how did they convince the legions of Protoss warriors to go after Tassadar in the midst of an invasion of their home planet?
Plus Aldaris tells you that the war against the Zerg is going well. And until Tassadar comes back, you don't hear any differently.
They didn't count on her betraying them on Korhal. They figured they were safe until Char. They were obviously wrong, and I'm sure on some level they expected that, but honestly, what COULD they do about it? They want to take out the UED. Teaming up with Kerrigan is the best way of doing that.Quote:
And what about how Fenix and Raynor got caught with no contingency plan when Kerrigan betrayed them despite having previously discussed amongst themselves that Kerrigan could not be trusted and was bound to betray them once they served their purpose?
Calculated risk that backfired.
There is a difference between character-induced idiocy and plot-induced idiocy. With characters, it flows naturally from who they are. With plots, it doesn't.Quote:
Plenty of good plotlines involve somebody being an idiot and it NOT being bad writing. I take issue with a lot of examples on that page.
I might be able to accept that Aldaris is just a massive bigot and idiot. But the things he does are so off-the-wall brain-dead that it strains credibility that he could ever rise to a position of power, let alone to the head of the Conclave.
For example, I could buy that Aldaris, once detecting Kerrigan's influence over the Matriarch, decided to rebel rather than peacefully waiting for Artanis's return. However, what I don't buy is that he doesn't even bother to talk to Artanis once they return. Artanis is one of his guys. And while he's certainly been hanging around Kerrigan far too much, I can't imagine a reason why he wouldn't check for her influence at least, rather than just shooting on sight.
Why? That makes no sense at all. They should have considered their alliance terminated the instant that Kerrigan no longer needed them.Quote:
They didn't count on her betraying them on Korhal. They figured they were safe until Char.
What could they do about it? How about leave immediately after? How about turn their guns on Kerrigan the second that they no longer need her?Quote:
They were obviously wrong, and I'm sure on some level they expected that, but honestly, what COULD they do about it? They want to take out the UED. Teaming up with Kerrigan is the best way of doing that.
I could see Raynor not wanting to do that, but Mengsk? Come on; he's already kicked her to the curb once.
I think lore-wise, Artanis shot first, upon being ordered to by Raszagal. Either way, the question remains why didn't whoever started the fight at least try to talk first?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
What difference would it have made between charging alongside the first wave and hanging back until most of the fighting was over? The fact that no real, substantial reason was given is what's making it seem like the Overmind was carrying the idiot ball on that part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
The whole point about betraying someone is to get them when they least suspect it. And the point of preparing for one is to be able to pull said fail safe at any point. Moreover, they didn't need to ally with Kerrigan in the first place. They could have easily laid low for awhile while reestablishing contact with the Protoss fleets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Nicol, they have no real precedent for terminating there relationship, sure, theres right to be suspicious, but she claims she is free of the Overminds influences. Why Kerrigan would decide to betray them all of her own volition isn't something they would have predicted.
I think the case here is really because the missions themselves were an over exaggeration of the events that transpired. We know gameplay are not actually what happened, but rather representations of what happened. If you look at it from this light, Aldarus probably wasn't engaged in an all out war, which would make sense, but rather he seized control of the warbands loyal to him and sought to capture Zeratul and Artanis when they were returning, who would naturally resist arrest.Quote:
And while he's certainly been hanging around Kerrigan far too much, I can't imagine a reason why he wouldn't check for her influence at least, rather than just shooting on sight.
The gameplay itself portrays it as an epic battle that could have lasted days, but we've seen repeatedly that the gameplay of a mission does not match up with scale it actually happened on. In actuality it could have been a battle that lasted a few hours, where neither side could communicate due to the chaos, quickly ending once Zeratuls forced were able to break the line and talk to Aldaris.
Because Aldaris is a jerk. He rebelled against the Dark Templar knowing that their matriarch was mind controlled. He's never been one for diplomacy, I don't know if you've noticed.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. peasant
It was so he could be made manifest upon the world. Why? Because it made him more powerful and it was a key step in assimilating the Protoss. He says as much in Zerg missions 9 and 10.Quote:
What difference would it have made between charging alongside the first wave and hanging back until most of the fighting was over? The fact that no real, substantial reason was given is what's making it seem like the Overmind was carrying the idiot ball on that part.
Why doesn't he wait? Maybe he can't. Or maybe he doesn't want to wait.
What's your point? They'd just finished wiping out a key UED staging point. They believe Kerrigan's being pragmatic. Mengsk and Raynor both think Kerrigan has no reason to betray them just yet. Even though Korhals out of the way, Char is still a powerful UED stronghold, and both Mengsk and Raynor believe Kerrigan is practical to the point that she won't be so wasteful as to betray them before Char's been dealt with.Quote:
The whole point about betraying someone is to get them when they least suspect it. And the point of preparing for one is to be able to pull said fail safe at any point.
The Protoss armada was in TOTAL disarray. They could not 'lay low for a while'. The UED was there and cracking down on the sector. They didn't really have time to wait.Quote:
Moreover, they didn't need to ally with Kerrigan in the first place. They could have easily laid low for awhile while reestablishing contact with the Protoss fleets.
He thinks Artanis is a naive child. It's got nothing to do with him fearing that he might be mind-controlled by Kerrigan so much as he's bitter and thinks they're all morons for trusting her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
They sort of did. Because the point she no longer needed them was on Braxis. (Mission 2) Not on Korhal (Mission 5). Once she got her broods back upon the Psi Disruptor's destruction. She was just being opportunistic by keeping them around for Korhal.Quote:
Why? That makes no sense at all. They should have considered their alliance terminated the instant that Kerrigan no longer needed them.
He's just restablished his own base of operations. And as established by "True Colours" even with Fenix's help, he didn't have the armada to take on Kerrigan's broods. A preemptive strike would not serve him that well.Quote:
What could they do about it? How about leave immediately after? How about turn their guns on Kerrigan the second that they no longer need her?
I could see Raynor not wanting to do that, but Mengsk? Come on; he's already kicked her to the curb once.
Kerrigan just caught them all at a moment of vulnerability. And Mengsk couldn't just leave. It's HIS planet. The only reason he even associated himself with Kerrigan at all was to retake it.
Precisely. In other words, while it does move the plot as needed, Aldaris was not struck with plot-induced stupidity (a.k.a. he's not holding the Idiot Ball) since his actions were perfectly in keeping with his character.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
So, a timeless, seemingly all-knowing entity who had been on a quest lasting hundreds of years couldn't wait a couple more months? Even if it can be justified by one of us, the lack of in-game explanation for a strategically stupid though awesome development in the plot is a classic example of using the rule of cool over common sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
The UED did not seem aware of Shakuras. Moreover, teaming up with your allies, even if slightly weaker, is a far more sensible thing to do than teaming up with the person who you know will at some point decide to kill you. Teaming up with your sworn enemy is classically only done when you've exhausted all other options and have no more allies to turn to. It's not supposed to be the first course of action.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
I believe I've at least made the attempt:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Let's say Ethan Stewart and Stukov get in a fight over how best to do Kerrigan's bidding. Stukov ends up becoming a calculating, manipulative bastard, while Stewart becomes a completely up-front psychopath.Quote:
Are the 10 different Zerg going to each have their own motivations for sticking with Kerrigan? I highly doubt that those motivations are going to be any more nuanced than "they got infested." [Nicol's proposed] on-the-job conflicts are absolutely inconsequential. Compare that to the situation aboard the Hyperion... Matt Horner's trying to play the good guy all these four years while Jim's making love to the bottle, suddenly Tychus and Gabe come aboard and are able to exert all this influence over Jimmy. 10 missions into this campaign, Matt Horner says "When you told me how Mengsk betrayed you for personal gain, I felt for you. But now I really know what that must have been like. I'm outta here." Up and leaves. That's it, no more Matt Horner on the Hyperion.
Sounds like an emotional turning point for Raynor, right? A turning point achieved through the execution of Matt Horner's free will as a character. Just the sort of thing Zerg characters are unable to do. If Stukov or Ethan Stewart are any indication, free will -- the sort of free will that Kerrigan is oh-so-known for exhibiting -- just isn't an option for other Zerg.
Do either of these things mean anything for anyone else? No. Stukov's development has no way of affecting anyone but himself. Likewise for Stewart's. Kerrigan isn't going to look at the two of them and say to herself, "My God, what have I done? I need to become a good person!"
That's what I meant when I said that on-the-job conflicts are inconsequential. They are completely, wholly limited to affecting the character that is being "developed." That's just piss-poor drama.
If you have examples on how this could be handled differently... taking into account that the Overmind is supposedly back, overseeing everything from the very top... I'd love to hear them. :)
Well, they kinda shift their language a lot in those scenes. Sometimes the Overmind says "I will manifest upon this world" and other times he says "I will be made manifest."Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. peasant
If it's truly the former, then he's just moving planets. Going from Char (where he's more vulnerable) to Aiur. (Where he's... not as vulnerable.) Otherwise, the Overmind manifesting itself probably increased the power of the Zerg Swarm. (He mentions the Khaydarin Crystal possesses power unimagined by the Protoss) It was probably part of the reason they had such an easy time taking over Aiur.
It's always been kinda vague whether or not the Overmind took physical form for the first time on Aiur or not. I tend to think he didn't just because they grew a new one in Brood War.
So what? Raynor and Fenix are just going to go and hide? They don't even know where Shakuras is either. (And I refuse to buy the new lore that they've went hiding out there in between the Brood War Protoss and Terran campaigns. That doesn't make any sense.)Quote:
The UED did not seem aware of Shakuras.
They don't KNOW that she's going to kill them. Initially she probably gave them the same spiel she gave the Shakuras Protoss. And eventually Raynor and Fenix probably just got warier and warier of her, the more power she got. (I mean before Braxis they probably are on about even footing, hell, Kerrigan's probably at a disadvantage.)Quote:
Moreover, teaming up with your allies, even if slightly weaker, is a far more sensible thing to do than teaming up with the person who you know will at some point decide to kill you.
Besides that, who says the Shakuras Protoss want to wage a war on the UED? They're a young, fractured nation at the moment, they don't really have the manpower to fight them and why would they REALLY want to?
Mengsk agrees to it because he wants his planet back. Raynor want to get rid of the big scary dictators (And Fenix is kinda going along for the ride, I suppose). What reason would the Shakuras Protoss have to fight them?
On the other hand, we have Kerrigan, who while more untrustworthy to be sure, has the resources, has the manpower, and furthermore... HAS A PLAN.
She wasn't so untrustworthy that they were terrified for their lives every moment they were allied with her. At least until she got her broods back, but by then I think they were probably too far in to pull up ship then.
I gotta say that even though I started this furball, after reading this quote from her SCwiki page it made me a little sympathetic towards Kerrigan. In the end she's really just a victim I suppose, of the Confederacy at first, then the Zerg. Still, in the perfect universe, she's a terran again and the overmind is kicking ass in it's psychic horror way that it does.
Quote:
Chris Metzen has described Kerrigan as (alongside Jim Raynor) the "loneliest person in the universe." In his mind, the possibility of her redemption and her rocky relationship with Raynor makes up the heart of the StarCraft universe.
The 100% perfect summary of everything that is wrong with the StarCraft universe. If the "heart" of your universe is a pathetic 16 year-old angsting about how her daddy Mengsk didn't love her enough and how she can't get a man anymore, then your universe sucks.Quote:
Chris Metzen has described Kerrigan as (alongside Jim Raynor) the "loneliest person in the universe." In his mind, the possibility of her redemption and her rocky relationship with Raynor makes up the heart of the StarCraft universe.
The redemption of Kerrigan would be a good thing only if it lead directly to the return of the Overmind or a concept equally as interesting.
Desmond and Penelope's romance on Lost is often hailed as one of the greatest romances to ever grace TV screens. Yet Desmond could just as easily be called a pathetic coward who angsts over how he doesn't deserve all the good things that he already has. That's not BAD. That's GOLDEN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
You fail drama 101 forever.
Ugh, more of this tired old "i hate starcraft lore" tripe? We get it, StarCraft is poorly written and hackneyed as far as you're concerned. Though you post in the StarCraft lore forum anyway, you like real villains, such as Dr. Breen (lol), and Kreia, who make you question your morality. I bow down before your superior taste in gaming writing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Only problem is that I think Kreia is boring and dull, and that the Overmind is infinitely more complex and interesting as a villain. See how this works?
In all honesty, I expected to keep them around until you were assaulting the Overmind. I guess they might have expected that too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
"The Enemy of My Enemy Is My Friend" is a real-life diplomacy blunder, and it's amazing how often it's been used. America and Russia versus Germany, Russia and China versus America, Germany and Italy and Japan versus the World, America and Iraq versus Iran, America and the South Vietnamese Junta versus North 'Nam, and those are all just off the top of my head.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. peasant
Whereas some of those, like Germany and Japan, didn't or wouldn't result in complete backstabbing, it was hardly to the benefit of the aggressors. Hell, if Germany wasn't allied with Japan, the American entry into WWII would have come much later.
And don't get me started on Russia and China.
And who said it was their last course of action? Who says that Kerrigan didn't have them surrounded and battered before offering them a choice between being Zergling kibble and joining with her against the Terror of the Korprulu Sector?
I haven't played the game, but didn't Kreia's betrayal force you to go BACK THROUGH the last half of the game (essentially) and fight your way in reverse?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Just what I've heard. If so, a good villain, lousy game design.
now that's just false. so many one-dimensional characters are hugely interesting. heathcliff from wuthering heights, for instance, or marlo from the wire (see my picture)--he's an unqualified sociopath but he's easily as compelling as stringer bell or omar little, who both have far more "depth".Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
in fact, many great writers (who are taken very seriously) don't bother creating multi-dimensional characters. william s burroughs is an example of this.
edit: i think that "you always need complex characters" is just another phony dictum, like "show don't tell."
i disagree. i think it's pretty cool that the universe is at the mercy of a depressed child's neuroses. it's pretty realistic, actually. of course, blizzard shouldn't even toy with the idea of "redeeming" kerrigan. as always, success lies in the execution :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
we all know the real problems with starcraft 2's story are Gabriel Tosh and the artifacts. and no second-person character.
...this is such a subjective statement it's ridiculous. I mean seriously, if this were objectively true, William Shakespere should come back from the dead and go re-write King Lear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
I'm not saying Kerrigan is of the same caliber as Edmund, but the principle is the same. (The bastard archetype.)
And Kerrigan isn't 16... and she didn't angst about Mengsk, she just teamed up with him, betrayed him, wiped out what was left of his entire empire, and then marooned him on his ruined planet. I fail to see how that's 'angsting'.
And she doesn't even mention her relationship with Raynor. Personally I always found her relationships with Dugalle and Zeratul more interesting than her relationship with Raynor.
No. You just go back to the second level briefly.Quote:
I haven't played the game, but didn't Kreia's betrayal force you to go BACK THROUGH the last half of the game (essentially) and fight your way in reverse?
The game is horribly designed for a lot of other reasons. Mostly that it drags like crazy and the concepts are a bit too cerebral for a Star Wars game. And the plot is incredibly labyrinthine and occasionally a bit too... cryptic.
...and there's way too much dialogue. Even for an RPG.
Kreia was a fairly cool villain, though. And Sara Kestelman was great as the voice.
People rise to power all the time that make, in hindsight, genuinely stupid decisions; Georg W. Bush - Invading Iraq on one faulty intelligence report? Or General Custer getting himself slaughtered when the Gatling gun had just been developed and was readily at hand?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
But, what people often forget is under which circumstances the decision was made and much more importantly, which circumstances are apparent to the decider.
Does it strain the credibility of Aldaris to go after Tassadar? No, if that side of Aldaris has not been developed to say anything to the contrary and the circumstances show Aldaris that the Zerg are not a big enough threat to ignore the rule of law (Tassadar meddling with the outcasts), then it is not bad writing, it is just personal opinion. i.e. "what would I have done?" and, at that, with knowledge that Aldaris does not have.
Obviously a matter of personal opinion, but how are those bad things? Tosh strikes me as one of the more interesting members of Raynor's crew and the removal of second person is a definate plus in my books.Quote:
Originally Posted by deadlock
She acts like it.Quote:
And Kerrigan isn't 16...
Here she's been given world-conquering power, the genetic legacy of a sizable portion of the galaxy, and untold knowledge. And what does she want to do?
Settle her daddy issues with Mengsk and screw random people over for no reason in particular.
She's not interested in plumbing the infinite knowledge that the Zerg have at their disposal. She's not interested in seeing what she can do with the Zerg's genetic makeup. She's not interested in anything even remotely productive.
She's a child with a new toy, seeing whatever she can throw her Zerg at.
I have this book called "How not to write a novel." It's basically a list of horrible writing techniques, why they're horrible, and how to avoid them. I don't agree with everything the book states, but there's one section entitled "Why your job is harder than God's."Quote:
But, what people often forget is under which circumstances the decision was made and much more importantly, which circumstances are apparent to the decider.
What it basically says is that history is history; no one questions it because it did happen. Thus, freak occurrences and arbitrary insanity are perfectly acceptable. In history. The salient quote is this, "When a writer proposes an unlikely event, we buy it or not based on whether the writer has managed to create a world in which the event is interrelated with everything around it, so it appears to the reader something that might naturally happen."
He has this raging hard on for accusing Blizzard of Racism because Tosh + Voodoo doll = racism. He's been crying out about it ever since he the dawn of time.Quote:
Obviously a matter of personal opinion, but how are those bad things? Tosh strikes me as one of the more interesting members of Raynor's crew and the removal of second person is a definate plus in my books.