Zerg were better off with the Overmind

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Originally Posted by Gradius

"For upon this world of Aiur shall we incorporate the strongest known species into our fold. Then shall we be the greatest of creation's children. We shall be... Perfect.".

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Hello there guys.

Maybe i will be a little off-topic here, but i noticed that in the StarCraft lore it is really important to analyse certain "quotes" from the game itself.

What i am curious about here, is the word "CREATION". The Overmind used this word as a noun, not as a verb. If it is a noun, then i wonder if it refers to the Xel'Naga itself. Because Zeratul mentions the word "CREATION" himself when he visits Raynor on the Hyperion in the Wings of Liberty cinematic (the one that just recently became available for the public). Zeratul said : "The fate of CREATION hangs in the balance."

I wonder if he was just being mystical in his choice of words, or he actually refers to the Xel'Naga with the vord CREATION.

I speculate that CREATION = Xel'Naga

I just wanted to know what you guys think about this.

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You guys have little imagination. Kerrigan following the commands of the Overmind doesn't have to result in the story been boring. It has absolutely nothing to do.
For example: if the Overmind were alive, could order Kerrigan to do exactly what she's doing, having absolutely no impact on Kerrigan, except that the Overmind could still be around. I mean, she doesn't need to be as inconsequential as in vainilla SC by any means.

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You missed my point. I'm not talking about minor things. I'm talking about the huge central plot points like "Invading Auir" or "Making a Hybrid", which ultimately, would be in the jurisdiction of the Overlord.

What this means is that Kerrigan's personality cannot ever deviate from what the Overlord wishes of her. The overlord will ultimately order her to do things, and she would either do them or rebel. Now you're severely limiting any character development on the main character's character. Kerrigan starts out aligned to the Overlord and the story ends with her aligned to the Overlord. Because he is psychically bonded to the Overlord, and cannot rebel.

How on earth do you expect to create a dynamic character out of this? At best, you can express a nuanced character, but she can't change in any meaningful way. And even if she is left to her own volition for most of the campaign, it wouldn't even matter because any character development she would experience would ultimately have to keeper her within the boundaries of "following the overmind". Which doesn't even make sense given her rebellious personality.

Not only that, but by a)Removing the overmind from interacting with anyone b)Making Cerebrates who conflict with each other (Which doesn't even make any sense because they have a hive mind, and Cerebrates are just manifestations of the overlords will), you've removed much of the purpose of having the Overlord in there the first place.

I mean, thats terrible writing. "The only way this character works is if it doesn't interact with the plot in any meaningful way, but managing to negate any potential character development on the behalf of the protagonist?". wtf?

The ONLY way you could have Kerrigan experience development is through internal development that makes her agree with the overmind, change of mindsets against the overmind would ultimately lead to rebellion. Perhaps, since her service for the Overmind is resentful in SCvanilla, you might think she could experience development to be more like a zerg? Even that would be completely stupid, because the only way that could work is if the Overminds rationale were explained in a way that Kerrigan, and by proxy, us, would understand, which would humanize the overmind with (very vaguely) sympathetic motives, as opposed to utterly alien, Lovecraftian monologueing. Now not only have you made the current catalyst for the Zerg definable and human, you've made the entirety of the zerg and all its history and origins reducible to human definition. Which is far worse then the problem you originally set out to solve.

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Originally Posted by RolleR_RATM

Hello there guys.

Maybe i will be a little off-topic here, but i noticed that in the StarCraft lore it is really important to analyse certain "quotes" from the game itself.

What i am curious about here, is the word "CREATION". The Overmind used this word as a noun, not as a verb. If it is a noun, then i wonder if it refers to the Xel'Naga itself. Because Zeratul mentions the word "CREATION" himself when he visits Raynor on the Hyperion in the Wings of Liberty cinematic (the one that just recently became available for the public). Zeratul said : "The fate of CREATION hangs in the balance."

I wonder if he was just being mystical in his choice of words, or he actually refers to the Xel'Naga with the vord CREATION.

I speculate that CREATION = Xel'Naga

I just wanted to know what you guys think about this.

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This is currently the leading fantheory.

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Originally Posted by newcomplex

And even if she is left to her own volition for most of the campaign, it wouldn't even matter because any character development she would experience would ultimately have to keeper her within the boundaries of "following the overmind".

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I still don't see any good reasons for why this is bad, other than you don't like how it was done in SC. You're basically saying that it's impossible to have good character development if the character would be allied to the same force he was at the end as he was in the beginning? That doesn't make any sense.

Also:
being part of a hive mind =/= having no opinions

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Originally Posted by TWD

The zerg was better off under the overmind simply because that new shrill voice commanding "we require more minerals" is just plain irritating. Before it was like "ok overmind I understand". Now it's like "shut up witch, I know what I'm doing!"

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/thread

lol maybe they could reintroduce the overmind and they could have a cameo appearance of kratos from god of war and u could have a massive epic boss battle. well thats the direction alot of games are going atm. btw i know and am glad that would never happen since blizzard actually has class.

but anyway Overmind was badass while kerrigan was a spoilt rich chick who pissed me off. they should just make the overmind a building that gives some + once its built such as added group damage or something when focusing down an enemy with more then like 5 zerg or something (if they could balance it)

Also i still cant figure out how a massive brain the size of a small country could be out smarted by a single person i reckon it must have Dyslexia or ADHD and must have been to busy playing World Of Warcraft in the basement to notice her lol. even if it was a young overmind still a massive brain. (Broodwar overmind)

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Originally Posted by Gradius

I still don't see any good reasons for why this is bad, other than you don't like how it was done in SC. You're basically saying that it's impossible to have good character development if the character would be allied to the same force he was at the end as he was in the beginning? That doesn't make any sense.

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I'm saying her opinion could go two ways. Against the overminds ideals, or towards it. (Or stay the same, hence, no character development). If she goes against the overminds ideals and establishes her own, this could only be represented in the game as a rebellion of some sort, or alternatively, converging with the overmind, thus humanizing the overminds motives, the entire reason we liked the overlord.

Also, the way it was done in SC would be terrible...Its pretty clear by Kerrigan's attitude right on the outset of the campaign that she just hates all the cerebrates, and probably even the overmind, but she was under his control. The second that control breaks she starts murdering all the cerebrates and the new overmind.

That would mean that doing it the same way would be a Kerrigan who was hated the overmind yet was controlled by him directly so she couldn't disobey. Thus, everything really plot crucial your character is doing is not of her own free will. For the entire game. With no epiphany or anything at the end.

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Originally Posted by newcomplex

I'm saying her opinion could go two ways. Against the overminds ideals, or towards it. (Or stay the same, hence, no character development). If she goes against the overminds ideals and establishes her own, this could only be represented in the game as a rebellion of some sort, or alternatively, converging with the overmind, thus humanizing the overminds motives, the entire reason we liked the overlord.

Also, the way it was done in SC would be terrible...Its pretty clear by Kerrigan's attitude right on the outset of the campaign that she just hates all the cerebrates, and probably even the overmind, but she was under his control. The second that control breaks she starts murdering all the cerebrates and the new overmind.

That would mean that doing it the same way would be a Kerrigan who was hated the overmind yet was controlled by him directly so she couldn't disobey. Thus, everything really plot crucial your character is doing is not of her own free will. For the entire game. With no epiphany or anything at the end.

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I agree in that the way it was done in SC1 leaved something to be desired, but there's a lot more in character development that to define if it does follow orders, or rebel.
Intelligent infested terrans have intelligence. They cannot go against the Overmind, but they can be as good as any other character without disobeying the Overmind. Not every story in the world must be about some betrayal.
Right now, we can assume that Kerrigan is going to have her own agents, like the Cerebrates were for the Overmind, likely intelligent infested terrans. Would this mean that this characters are going to suck because they must follow orders? No, most evil organizations have someone ruling them, yet that doesn't makes the other characters suck.
If betrayal is not an option, it's not an option, but it's only 1 option that you're losing, and it isn't the only one.

What if the Overmind actually created Kerrigan for he knew that his end was near. I mean actually you don't share power with someone else unless you are in perril and you have more reasons not to when you are the absolute ruler of an entire race. Kerrigan was a great subordinate, but what if the demands of the swarm asked for a secure transion between rulers, when one of them was meant to die sooner or later.

Said transition was anything but secure.

The Overmind could simply have ordered Daggoth to hand over the reigns to Kerrigan if it somehow died.

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I'm saying her opinion could go two ways. Against the overminds ideals, or towards it. (Or stay the same, hence, no character development).

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You have a very narrow interpretation of character development and story.

A King orders one of his Knights to take part of his army and subjugate a country. There is immense story potential in this, depending on how the Knight goes about the task.

It could be a direct conquest. It could be more subtle subversion, playing different factions in the enemy country off against one another to weaken them. He could instigate a civil war. Perhaps he is a budding Chessmaster, honing his skills.

His own subordinates could have different ideas about how to do this, sometimes in conflict. The Knight could try to keep the peace between them. Or perhaps he has to work with people he doesn't like or care for. Maybe some of his fellows are more or less bloodthirsty than he his, and he has to try to work against them.

And this is just what I came up with off the top of my head. All of these end in the same way: the Knight is still loyal to the King. But they all tell entirely different stories, with entirely different character arcs for the Knight.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

And this is just what I came up with off the top of my head. All of these end in the same way: the Knight is still loyal to the King. But they all tell entirely different stories, with entirely different character arcs for the Knight.

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That's not character development arcs, that's plot arcs you're describing. That we get to see some of the Knight's traits come to light is not developing anything, it's simply giving us insight into his nature. Which may be enough for some secondary characters and all tertiary ones, but we expect better than that from our protagonists.

NC has implied the biggest core issue with this set-up but hasn't stated it outright: it's not JUST that these characters aren't capable of development, it's that they are fundamentally all the same character.

Gabriel Tosh, Tychus Findlay, Matt Horner, Ariel Hanson, James Raynor. What do these characters have in common? Anything and everything but their motivations for being aboard the Hyperion, and that's what makes them interesting.

Are the 10 different Zerg going to each have their own motivations for sticking with Kerrigan? I highly doubt that those motivations are going to be any more nuanced than "they got infested." Your on-the-job conflicts are absolutely inconsequential. Compare that to the situation aboard the Hyperion... Matt Horner's trying to play the good guy all these four years while Jim's making love to the bottle, suddenly Tychus and Gabe come aboard and are able to exert all this influence over Jimmy. 10 missions into this campaign, Matt Horner says "When you told me how Mengsk betrayed you for personal gain, I felt for you. But now I really know what that must have been like. I'm outta here." Up and leaves. That's it, no more Matt Horner on the Hyperion.

Sounds like an emotional turning point for Raynor, right? A turning point achieved through the execution of Matt Horner's free will as a character. Just the sort of thing Zerg characters are unable to do. If Stukov or Ethan Stewart are any indication, free will -- the sort of free will that Kerrigan is oh-so-known for exhibiting -- just isn't an option for other Zerg. Now you say "Well why don't we MAKE it an option?!"

Cause you can't. The Zerg, Kerrigan being the VERY notable sole exception here, got to where they are by plot magic and not character development. Stukov's infestation didn't come at a turning point for himself, where he realized that interpersonal relationships were just not the way to go, that forming more was just asking to have people take advantage of you, and so decided to join this greater collective where he can never be emotionally damaged again.

Nuh-uh. He got acid goo sprayed on him. That did it. And unless we're willing to go through the fairly extensive process of ensuring every Zerg character's backstory supports their transformation into their respective Zerg character as part of their natural arc, something that is true of Kerrigan but likely as much through accident as through deliberate intent, these guys and gals are just going to be carbon copies of one another. And then we have to be OK with the Zerg suddenly having free will on such a scope that they can do anything. They can de-infest themselves. They can up and leave to spread the good word through non-violent means. They can become heroes as well as villains. They can become... well... not Zerg at all.

And that's not a problem if we stick to Brood War's model of having a single Zerg character for every 10 non-Zerg characters that the player interacts with in the campaign, but the whole point of this thread is to suggest we don't, to suggest we have a whole roster headed up by the Overmind, just like in the good ol' days. Can you imagine writing such arcs for a whole roster of characters JUST to ensure they're not carbon copies of one another?

Those good ol' days just aren't. They're the bad ol' days. Good riddance.


edit: I should clarify that I'd absolutely LOVE for the Zerg to get a shitton of characters THAT interesting. And if that's Blizz's plan, I'm 300% for it. But that's decidedly not what this thread is suggesting.

I just hope you guys realize that Heart of the Swarm will be dealing with Kerrigan's Queens, and possibly other infested subordinates. But since there's no way that there could be character development here, some of you guys might want to skip out on that expansion. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Gradius

I just hope you guys realize that Heart of the Swarm will be dealing with Kerrigan's Queens, and possibly other infested subordinates. But since there's no way that there could be character development here, some of you guys might want to skip out on that expansion. :rolleyes:

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"I should clarify that I'd absolutely LOVE for the Zerg to get a shitton of characters THAT interesting. And if that's Blizz's plan, I'm 300% for it. But that's decidedly not what this thread is suggesting."

:)

Well the Overmind is definitely better in term of epicness, but not in terms of character development..... unless

The overmind is the end point of Zerg "character development"

If Kerrigan essentially becomes a new overmind, finally getting over her desires for revenge to pursue power and perfection for its own sake.

If becoming the overmind is Kerrigan's "final epiphany" in HotS, where she perhaps has to deal with Zerg that she lost control of. (Queens/Intelligent Infested Terrans that somehow got 'broken off') then you have the character development, while returning to the standard epic impersonality.

Since I think what they did with the Undead in TFT is good... the undead started off as a tool of the legion, and then splintered and became a 'wild' form under sylvannus and a 'legion' form under arthas. Having the Zerg follow the same pathway permits for Zerg character development in SC2. And Character development in SC3 can pick up with the wild Zerg... (or possibly follow the same arch as the 'legion' Kerriganovermind falls and a 'wild' member in her ranks takes over.....and then slowly develops into an overmind of its own)

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Gabriel Tosh, Tychus Findlay, Matt Horner, Ariel Hanson, James Raynor. What do these characters have in common? Anything and everything but their motivations for being aboard the Hyperion, and that's what makes them interesting.

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Motivation for doing what you do is not the only facet of a character. How you do something, and why you do it that way, are interesting in and of themselves. This is the difference between the Overmind and Kerrigan.

The Overmind's tactics are simple, direct, and overwhelming. Kerrigan's tactics are subtle and manipulative, weaving plots and playing on their enemy's weakness rather than direct force. Why the difference? Because of where they came from. Kerrigan was a Ghost, a Special Forces operative. She's used to having to avoid direct force. That's how she thinks.

How you do something shows character. And if how you do things changes, then that shows how your character is changing.

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Just the sort of thing Zerg characters are unable to do.

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Except that this has nothing to do with the Overmind. This is the fundamental nature of the Zerg; this is what makes them Zerg.

Kerrigan replaced the Overmind; that doesn't mean that her subordinates are now somehow capable of insubordination or having a particular motivation. If they are, then they must have given Kerrigan the Idiot Ball, big-time. And it fundamentally breaks the concept of the Zerg.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Motivation for doing what you do is not the only facet of a character. How you do something, and why you do it that way, are interesting in and of themselves. This is the difference between the Overmind and Kerrigan.

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Right, but the problem is: if the character's motivation isn't interesting, I'm not going to care about their development.

I'm only indirectly arguing against the Overmind's existence here. Directly, I'm arguing against a continuation of what the Overmind represents -- a hierarchy of single-minded characters that are incapable of forming genuine personal relationships we can empathize with and care about.

The problem is it's a little hard to imagine the Overmind co-existing with a large number of free agents such as Kerrigan. What if in their development and maturation, one of these agents decides he doesn't like being Zerg, and doesn't like what he's turned into? Is the Overmind just going to let him leave? I doubt that.

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Except that this has nothing to do with the Overmind. This is the fundamental nature of the Zerg; this is what makes them Zerg

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Then that is what makes the Zerg unfit for being a playable campaign race.

Blizzard is under no obligation to feature a campaign for every single multiplayer race. Featuring a racial campaign is not a duty, it's an opportunity to tell stories of a personal, traditionally dramatic nature. If there are no/few such stories to tell, then they shouldn't waste time on it, period. If we want to preserve the fundamental nature of the Zerg then all we need to do is not feature them as a playable faction, but instead a malevolent, truly alien force lurking in the background, scaring the living daylights out of the characters we DO care about -- and are playing as.

If this is fundamentally Zerg, then either there should be no Zerg campaign, OR there should be very few Zerg characters in the Zerg campaign (Brood War), OR we need to accept that changes to the fundamental nature of the Zerg are necessary if they're going to continue playing a playable role in the campaigns (also to an extent Brood War).

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

You have a very narrow interpretation of character development and story.

A King orders one of his Knights to take part of his army and subjugate a country. There is immense story potential in this, depending on how the Knight goes about the task.

It could be a direct conquest. It could be more subtle subversion, playing different factions in the enemy country off against one another to weaken them. He could instigate a civil war. Perhaps he is a budding Chessmaster, honing his skills.

His own subordinates could have different ideas about how to do this, sometimes in conflict. The Knight could try to keep the peace between them. Or perhaps he has to work with people he doesn't like or care for. Maybe some of his fellows are more or less bloodthirsty than he his, and he has to try to work against them.

And this is just what I came up with off the top of my head. All of these end in the same way: the Knight is still loyal to the King. But they all tell entirely different stories, with entirely different character arcs for the Knight.

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But that isn't a decision. Yes, Kerrigan can go about her conquest as she desires, in her own fashion, but ultimately, what this means is that Kerrigan can't make any plot relevant decisions.

If she is in a position to make a decision that is truly hers, and is relevant to "The end of all things" or w/e, she would either be obeying the overmind, or rebelling. Sure, if she obeyed the overmind, she could carry out that decision as her personality dicated, but ultimately, as I said, she wouldn't be an agent character.

If she rebelled, chose a position contrary to the overmind, confliction would result, which would place us in the same position. Or it would end with a dead protagonist.

If she aligned with the overmind, the only room for development would be her motives. The only motive that could be would be she saw reason in allying with the overmind of her own agency. Which would mean she would be able to rationalize the motive of the overmind into a form that we, the audience, would understand. Which would bring us back to the problem of a humanized zerg. Oh ok, I'll ally with you Theovermind, you had father issues. That was a joke, but you get the gist of that line of thought.


If the Overminds motives were to continue to be alien, there would be no way to create a plot where kerrigan gets it, but we, as the audience, watching everything she does from a 3rd person adventure game style cam, would not

"Hey Zasz why is the overmind a meanie"
"qwewwzzqwwetqttqwsfqwwyywahhsrass"
"Oh ok"

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Kerrigan replaced the Overmind; that doesn't mean that her subordinates are now somehow capable of insubordination or having a particular motivation. If they are, then they must have given Kerrigan the Idiot Ball, big-time. And it fundamentally breaks the concept of the Zerg.

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From the info we have, Kerrigans powers are still "young", she doesn't have control of all the zerg on the Koprulu sector. As a result, we know that they're are other emergent zerg intelligences vying for control, like that sapient ultralisk, other sapient infested terrans with there own small warbands and the rogue broods killing shit on auir. Chances are a cerebrates may have even emerged. This is the direct result of the overmind not existing anymore, and it gives us a lot of potential characters in the Zerg campaign, and creates a lot of interesting plot oppurtunities. I'd like to have a conversation with that talking Torrasque :p http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Wise_Old_Torrasque

As for zerg she already controls rebelling, well, we don't have any cases of that happening, but not all zerg are under her control. Not even close.

Also, I'm pretty sure a lot of higher up zerg have independent thoughts within the Hive mind. Specifically, Queens appear to do so due to there ability to telepathically bitch for more minnneraalls and the above strains seem to possess self emergent intelligence.

I feel somewhat redundant after all this in-depth debate, but I'd have to say that some of Kerrigan's quotes were as good as the Overmind's, in their own way.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Awaken my child, and embrace the glory that is your birthright. Know that I am the Overmind; the eternal will of the Swarm, and that you have been created to serve me.

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Gerard DuGalle: "You vastly underestimate me, my dear."
Infested Kerrigan: "I don't think so, Admiral. You see, at this point... I'm pretty much the Queen Bitch of the Universe. And not all of your little soldiers or space ships will stand in my way again."

And DuGalle's reaction to seeing Kerrigan was priceless.
"Who the... what the Hell are you?"

I like this quote because it reflects what a lot of people probably think of her. A monster, true, but moreso because she was once human.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Best video game villian...............ever.

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Nein, Kerrigan and GLaDOS are much better.

And filling out the "Cosmic Janitor with a sociopathic work ethic" we have 343 Guilty Spark.

The Overmind worked good as a sort of Cthulhu character, the cosmic force giving you orders though...

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

And a damn good rapper.

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True. It's almost as good as "Still Alive".

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Originally Posted by newcomplex

From the info we have, Kerrigans powers are still "young", she doesn't have control of all the zerg on the Koprulu sector. As a result, we know that they're are other emergent zerg intelligences vying for control, like that sapient ultralisk, other sapient infested terrans with there own small warbands and the rogue broods killing shit on auir. Chances are a cerebrates may have even emerged. This is the direct result of the overmind not existing anymore, and it gives us a lot of potential characters in the Zerg campaign, and creates a lot of interesting plot oppurtunities. I'd like to have a conversation with that talking Torrasque :p http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Wise_Old_Torrasque

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Meh...

I preferred the rebelling Defiler, even if it was a fairly silly Christmas map.

If the overmind was strong enough to survive, it would have.

but Kerrigan represents cleverness, deceptive, and ability to interact.

and the Overmind is supposed be mysterious, flawless, and distant.

The Overmind would have worked well hidden in a distant world, controlling everything telephatically but without revealing his position (sorta like Lich Kng in WC3)

Kerrigan's part in the campaign doesn't even have to involve her talking with lots of other zerg characters. Because she is mobile she can talk with any other character during her campaign. We have already seen her talking with Zeratul.

On a side topic, do you think Kerrigan will suffer a big reversal to reduce her forces for the Heart of the Swarm? I only ask that because for all other campaigns you start with just a subset of the forces you can get and I have trouble seeing how they could justify that for Kerrigan without having her face massive losses.

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Originally Posted by Rake

On a side topic, do you think Kerrigan will suffer a big reversal to reduce her forces for the Heart of the Swarm? I only ask that because for all other campaigns you start with just a subset of the forces you can get and I have trouble seeing how they could justify that for Kerrigan without having her face massive losses.

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Actually, precedent already exists for Blizz starting a race off strong, then making them weak afterwards: Undead campaign in TFT.

Either that, or they can give the first missions more of an RPG slant, so by the time you really get into base building it makes sense to have access to... well, everything. So there's definitely options for keeping Kerrigan at full power.

I'd say she suffers losses by the end of Wings of Liberty-as each campaign leads directly into the next, that sets the stage for her having to rebuild the zerg.

Honestly, I've seen brainwashed Kerrigan. And while I enjoyed the character, I think they moved on at the right time. Because really, she was brainwashed in Uprising, she was brainwashed in Rebel Yell, she was brainwashed in the Overmind.

And what does she do when she's not brainwashed? She lies, she kills, and she makes everybody but herself feel guilty about it.

It's that kind of vicious, villainous bastardy that I just love. It's the kind of spiteful, bitter bastardy behaviour that brainwashed Kerrigan could never give us, because brainwashed Kerrigan is a puppet following orders. She may say the words, but the intention behind them is not her own.

Brainwashed Kerrigan wouldn't have killed Aldaris and told Zeratul and Artanis how they were playing straight into her hands, knowing full well that they would continue to do so anyway, because it was the best course of action.

One of the most beautiful things about the Brood War campaign, in my opinion, is how Kerrigan constantly manages to make herself the lesser evil. The acceptable risk. She's bad, but the UED is worse, the Overmind is worse. And both of those threats are far more imminent than she is.

And that's the kind of subtelty that I don't think brainwashed Kerrigan could ever give us. She's just a puppet, or an unfeeling monster, or a guilt-ridden young woman with identity issues.

Brood War Kerrigan on the other hand is just one, nice, complete, messed up ball of deadly. And that's so much more appealing to me.

Overmind on the other hand is just too competent, too powerful, too driven. It's never going to give up, and if you have people showing it up, it stops being this deadly, mysterious, powerful thing. That's one of the things that made Tassadar's sacrifice so strong, just how INTIMIDATING the Overmind was.

But the Overmind served it's purpose. Unfortunately, it has little more to offer other than more of the same. And for a unit in such a key, PROTAGONIST role, that's not good.

Also, another good Kerrigan quote:

"Kerrigan: Ah yes, you're referring to your vaunted Psi Disrupter. It won't last you forever. Sooner or later, I'll destroy it. Then I'll show you what the Zerg are really capable of. Oh, and by the way Admiral, your friend Stukov was twice the man you were. I'm glad you saved me the trouble of killing him. "

Just like... "Yeah, you killed your friend, you bastard." but in such a deliciously bitter way. And I like the layers there, that one could look at it as Kerrigan enforcing herself on Dugalle, in a negative way. Guilt being a big part of her motivation in Rebel Yell.

It's like the comparison between Mengsk and Dugalle. Sure Mengsk made an intimidating, passionate, imperialistic schemer. But Dugalle was just such a broken, flawed, weak man. So moral, and yet so weak. So different from Mengsk and yet so the same.

She was not brainwashed under the command of the Overmind. She just cannot go against the Overmind. Hell, she even looked as she would go against a Cerebrate. That's plenty of free will.

The character was just stupid at that stage. I don't know why, probably Blizzard wasn't too sure about what to do with her (and they said it themselves, she was going to be there just to be Raynor's girl on the beginning).

She used to pursue her own goals, also. Remember that some Cerebrate was suspicion on her as she seemed more worried about unlocking her full psi powers than following orders, then the Overmind says that she's an agent of the swam, and all that.

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Originally Posted by Arkalis

The Overmind would have worked well hidden in a distant world, controlling everything telephatically but without revealing his position (sorta like Lich Kng in WC3)

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The Lich King had lots of mobile, intelligent and interactive minions. Eg not cerebrates. No, it doesn't work.

Now that you mention WC3 though Kerrigan really just seems like a Sylvanas clone, or I suppose it's the other way around since WC3s story was highly derivative of SC

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Originally Posted by Kimera757

The Lich King had lots of mobile, intelligent and interactive minions. Eg not cerebrates. No, it doesn't work.

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Nobody says they have to be exclusively Cerebrates. If Kerrigan can make intelligent infested terrans, the Overmind surely could.

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

She was not brainwashed under the command of the Overmind. She just cannot go against the Overmind.

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She was brainwashed.

She still had a personality, but she was brainwashed.

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She used to pursue her own goals, also. Remember that some Cerebrate was suspicion on her as she seemed more worried about unlocking her full psi powers than following orders, then the Overmind says that she's an agent of the swam, and all that..

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And then he said she was as bound to him as any Cerebrate.

I.e.: Brainwashed.

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Now that you mention WC3 though Kerrigan really just seems like a Sylvanas clone, or I suppose it's the other way around since WC3s story was highly derivative of SC

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Kinda... there are a lot of differences.

The 'hero turned villain by torture' is hardly a device that StarCraft invented. Sylvanas has a bit more tunnel vision than Kerrigan for one thing.

Actually, Sylvanas is just really poorly defined in general.

How much brainwashing do you need to seek vengeance on the people who left you alone on a planet to die? :/

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It's that kind of vicious, villainous bastardy that I just love. It's the kind of spiteful, bitter bastardy behaviour that brainwashed Kerrigan could never give us, because brainwashed Kerrigan is a puppet following orders. She may say the words, but the intention behind them is not her own.

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She wasn't brainwashed under the Overmind. She remembered exactly everything that happened, the Overmind even said that he had left her her spirit so that all other Zerg may learn from her. Like Norfindel said, she just couldn't go against the will of the Overmind, even though she constantly disagreed with him and the cerebrates. You think if the Overmind brainwashed her that she would really disagree and argue with the Cerebrates all the time?

Learn the definition of Brainwash, or don't use it. Brainwash means to persuade/coerce Kerrigan to change her ideals and agree with what the Overmind thinks so that she would want to do them according to her own will. Being forced to do something because she's bound to it does not mean Brainwash. Notice she had the EXACT same personality after the Overmind died. She just had the freedom to do what she wanted after.

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

Nobody says they have to be exclusively Cerebrates. If Kerrigan can make intelligent infested terrans, the Overmind surely could.

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The Overmind would have no reason to make more sentient Infested Terrans. 1 was good enough, because it captured the collected knowledge and genetics of all the best the Terran Race has to offer.

The creation of Infested Terrans as lieutenants are a manifestation of Kerrigan's humanity. They aren't necessarily objectively better then the cerebrates, in fact, I bet she sacrificed raw psionic power by choosing Infested Terrans as lieutenants. She prefers them.

Stewart isn't just a omnipresent helper, he's also a person Kerrigan can talk to. It isn't incidental that while the Cerebrates personal relations to the Overmind were as advisors of undying loyalty, Ethan Stewart's relationship with Kerrigan is moreso a fanatical infatuated lover.

In terms of overall epicness the Overmind takes the cake to be sure, but in terms of overall plot relevance, evolution (both in terms of character and biologically speaking) it was essentially a dead end. It's motives and objectives were clear. It had advanced intellect and a level of awareness far beyond most other sentient beings, but in the end, it was simply a force of nature, a personified hunger. It had a single mandate that dictated everything it did and how it went about it. That and as was mentioned earlier, was more or less unable to directly interact with it's environment and it's enemies on a personal level, and didn't display any particular nuances in it's personality that that would make it easier to relate to. There's only so much you can do with a villain like that.

That being said, would the Zerg be better off with the Overmind? Perhaps, if the Zerg continued to be the primary antagonists; primal, unknowable, sinister. But that is no longer the case. It's now known more or less who and what they are, what they're capable of, what their primary imperative is, and more importantly, what their weakness is and how to fight them. As such the Overmind looses much of it's mystique, and what made it so ominous and sinister in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

She wasn't brainwashed under the Overmind. She remembered exactly everything that happened, the Overmind even said that he had left her her spirit so that all other Zerg may learn from her.

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Just because she had a personality doesn't mean she had free will. She couldn't go against the Overmind or it's interests. She was as bound to him as any of his Cerebrates. Do you really think the Kerrigan of Rebel Yell would serve the Zerg?

I mean why else would she go ahead and kill the fledgling Overmind and betray Daggoth otherwise? If she served the Zerg WILLING in Vanilla what reason would she have to betray them in Brood War?

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Like Norfindel said, she just couldn't go against the will of the Overmind, even though she constantly disagreed with him and the cerebrates.

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She constantly butted heads with Zasz. She never disagreed with him his motives or methods, she just couldn't stand how he was forever doubting her. That doesn't mean she had the free will to do as she pleased.

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You think if the Overmind brainwashed her that she would really disagree and argue with the Cerebrates all the time?

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We seem to be disagreeing on the definition of brainwashing here. To me it means that she was coersed into doing things she didn't want to through mind control of some sort. That altered her brain chemistry.

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Notice she had the EXACT same personality after the Overmind died. She just had the freedom to do what she wanted after.

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I don't think she had the same personality at all. She shared some traits with her "The Overmind" counterpart, but there are some VERY clear differences. The Kerrigan of "The Overmind" was brutish, dismissive and aggressive, instead of subtle, cunning and sadistic.

The Kerrigan of Brood War was wiser, more patient, more charismatic.

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If this is fundamentally Zerg, then either there should be no Zerg campaign, OR there should be very few Zerg characters in the Zerg campaign (Brood War), OR we need to accept that changes to the fundamental nature of the Zerg are necessary if they're going to continue playing a playable role in the campaigns (also to an extent Brood War).

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Or, you accept it as a fundamental limitation of the writing and work around it. Skilled writers do that.

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If she is in a position to make a decision that is truly hers, and is relevant to "The end of all things" or w/e, she would either be obeying the overmind, or rebelling. Sure, if she obeyed the overmind, she could carry out that decision as her personality dicated, but ultimately, as I said, she wouldn't be an agent character.

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Again, we have a failure of imagination.

The Overmind wants X. Kerrigan goes to do X. While doing X however, Y happens and she has to choose how to deal with it.

See? Plot-relevant decision making. All very simple.

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This is the direct result of the overmind not existing anymore, and it gives us a lot of potential characters in the Zerg campaign, and creates a lot of interesting plot oppurtunities.

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No, it creates a lot of stupid. Like a talking Torrasque, for example.

The Zerg have always been better off as being an utterly alien force. Here's what I mean.

Being a reasonable gamer, I read the instruction manual before playing SC1. My mental conception of the Zerg after reading that didn't exactly jive with what Blizzard presented. As cool as the Overmind was and as nice as his voice was, the Overmind should never have spoken.

The Overmind is eternal. The Overmind is the will of the swarm. The Overmind Is.

Intelligent agents of the Overmind should never have communicated with it in any direct way that could be even conceptually translated into "speech." They simply understand the Overmind's desires, because it's desires are their desires intrinsically. They do what it wants because they want it because they are all a part of the Overmind.

Once you take this away from the Zerg, they just become a bunch of raving animals. Now under the command of a goddamned human. For all her infested-ness, for all her supposed cunning, Kerrigan is just a petulant woman-child lashing out at whomever she wants because she can.

She doesn't care about anything. If she improves the Zerg, it is only to make them more effective tools to exercise her will. For her, improving the Zerg is at best a means to an end; for the Overmind, it is the end. Kerrigan has all this power, but not one scrap of an idea of what to do with it.

Being ruled by her diminishes the Zerg to being nothing more than her army. Kerrigan may as well be the leader of a futuristic Mongolian hoard, not an unknowable and unstoppable alien force.

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Nein, Kerrigan and GLaDOS are much better.

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<off-topic> Oh Jesus Christ, can we please stop furiously masturbating to Portal yet? Is that allowed? Please?

I am so sick of the love this game gets. Yes, it's a good game. Yes, it's worthy of praise, for both gameplay and writing. And voice acting. But calling GLaDOS a villain? And a good one, at that? Please.

She's Orcus, on his throne. She doesn't do anything.

She, like Kerrigan, is a child, only GLaDOS has some ridiculous obsession with putting some random woman through a maze.

You want a great videogame villain? Kreia. From Knights of the Old Republic 2. That's a great villain. When you can make the player question his morality, then you've got something compelling.

The Overmind is not a great villain. But it is a great concept. One that should not simply be cast aside.

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Just like... "Yeah, you killed your friend, you bastard."

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Yeah, that line would have been a lot more powerful if not for the scores of idiot balls that it took to make that work.

I'm sorry, but you don't get to be a chessmaster when other people have to be made stupid for your plots to work.

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That and as was mentioned earlier, was more or less unable to directly interact with it's environment and it's enemies on a personal level, and didn't display any particular nuances in it's personality that that would make it easier to relate to.

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Relate to? You're not supposed to relate to it; it's the Overmind!

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Yeah, that line would have been a lot more powerful if not for the scores of idiot balls that it took to make that work.

I'm sorry, but you don't get to be a chessmaster when other people have to be made stupid for your plots to work.

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I don't really see any idiot balls. And there was no real Xanatos gambit-esque plan. Duran and Kerrigan were obviously improvising to me. Making it up as they went along. At least all the stuff that happened after Aiur.

I mean pretty much one of the first things we find out about Dugalle is that he can't STAND traitors. (You know, ubermoral french general and all that.) Disobeying direct orders and abandoning an important battle is treacherous behaviour. Dugalle can't really deny the evidence.

At the same time, Stukov needed to get to the Psi Disruptor immediately. There's a potentially infested spy and traitor in their midst. He can't waste any time getting it operational.

I don't think that comes across as well as it should, but I think it's a pretty emotionally powerful sequence of events regardless.

Besides that, I think Kerrigan has a few pretty brilliant plots through out the campaign, and none of those involve any idiot balls whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Or, you accept it as a fundamental limitation of the writing and work around it. Skilled writers do that.

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Why should the writers "work around" a fundamental limitation if the resulting story is going to be predictably uninteresting? The SC1 Zerg Campaign is not interesting. It's no coincidence that its most memorable plot moments are the encounters with Raynor, Zeratul, and Tassadar.

The Overmind is a brilliant concept, but it is a concept that is fundamentally at odds with the goals Blizz has explicitly set for themselves with the campaigns. The campaigns are about the relationships between different characters. If we can't empathize with a character, we're not going to care about him. If he's not free to develop, we can't empathize with him. And if he's Zerg, he's not free to develop. Not in any meaningful way that counts.

We're not completely at odds NB. I love what the Overmind represents, and I really miss that element from the Zerg. But the answer is not to "stick it into the Zerg campaign" and "work around" the limitations that ensue. The answer is to play to its strengths, not weaknesses. The Overmind works best as a threat that looms in the darkness. If they bring it back, that's what it needs to be. Not the perspective character, but an unstoppable force of nature that the perspective characters have to contend with.

I would be 100% fine with SC3 having no Zerg campaign, so that we could bring the Overmind back in the action.

kinda off topic but I think it would be really awesome if they put some awesome new lacky for Kerrigan like an infested DT or something.

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You know, ubermoral french general and all that.

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... Did you use the word "moral" in connection with DuGalle? Are you serious? Did we even play the same game?

Because I seem to recall that our first introduction to the character was him taking his BC down to look over the carnage of Zerg assaulting a human outpost, then just leave. Nope, not lifting a finger to help. Not dropping a relief force or ordering naval fire support. Or anything. He just watched, then left.

And why did he watch? So that he could show his XO exactly what they were planning to do! You know, their entire strategy for ending the Zerg threat and taking over humanity? The strategy that involved using the Zerg as a biological weapon.

Yeah, he's totally a moral guy :rolleyes:

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At the same time, Stukov needed to get to the Psi Disruptor immediately. There's a potentially infested spy and traitor in their midst.

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Ya know, there's someone who might want to know about a Zerg spy in their midst. Maybe the Admiral?! He hates traitors, and you've got plenty of evidence of a traitor in your midst.

I'm sorry, but there's no logical way to explain why Stukov didn't go to the Admiral with evidence of Duran's duplicity. The state of the Psi Disruptor wouldn't matter if DuGaulle put a bullet in Duran's head. Going to the Psi Disruptor was Stukov picking up the idiot ball and running a touchdown.

It was almost as stupid as what Aldaris did. Almost.

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The SC1 Zerg Campaign is not interesting.

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Remember: as far as I'm concerned, you could remove the word "Zerg" from that sentence and get a reasonable statement.