Re: Zerg were better off with the Overmind
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I'm saying her opinion could go two ways. Against the overminds ideals, or towards it. (Or stay the same, hence, no character development).
You have a very narrow interpretation of character development and story.
A King orders one of his Knights to take part of his army and subjugate a country. There is immense story potential in this, depending on how the Knight goes about the task.
It could be a direct conquest. It could be more subtle subversion, playing different factions in the enemy country off against one another to weaken them. He could instigate a civil war. Perhaps he is a budding Chessmaster, honing his skills.
His own subordinates could have different ideas about how to do this, sometimes in conflict. The Knight could try to keep the peace between them. Or perhaps he has to work with people he doesn't like or care for. Maybe some of his fellows are more or less bloodthirsty than he his, and he has to try to work against them.
And this is just what I came up with off the top of my head. All of these end in the same way: the Knight is still loyal to the King. But they all tell entirely different stories, with entirely different character arcs for the Knight.
Re: Zerg were better off with the Overmind
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Originally Posted by
Nicol Bolas
And this is just what I came up with off the top of my head. All of these end in the same way: the Knight is still loyal to the King. But they all tell entirely different stories, with entirely different character arcs for the Knight.
That's not character development arcs, that's plot arcs you're describing. That we get to see some of the Knight's traits come to light is not developing anything, it's simply giving us insight into his nature. Which may be enough for some secondary characters and all tertiary ones, but we expect better than that from our protagonists.
NC has implied the biggest core issue with this set-up but hasn't stated it outright: it's not JUST that these characters aren't capable of development, it's that they are fundamentally all the same character.
Gabriel Tosh, Tychus Findlay, Matt Horner, Ariel Hanson, James Raynor. What do these characters have in common? Anything and everything but their motivations for being aboard the Hyperion, and that's what makes them interesting.
Are the 10 different Zerg going to each have their own motivations for sticking with Kerrigan? I highly doubt that those motivations are going to be any more nuanced than "they got infested." Your on-the-job conflicts are absolutely inconsequential. Compare that to the situation aboard the Hyperion... Matt Horner's trying to play the good guy all these four years while Jim's making love to the bottle, suddenly Tychus and Gabe come aboard and are able to exert all this influence over Jimmy. 10 missions into this campaign, Matt Horner says "When you told me how Mengsk betrayed you for personal gain, I felt for you. But now I really know what that must have been like. I'm outta here." Up and leaves. That's it, no more Matt Horner on the Hyperion.
Sounds like an emotional turning point for Raynor, right? A turning point achieved through the execution of Matt Horner's free will as a character. Just the sort of thing Zerg characters are unable to do. If Stukov or Ethan Stewart are any indication, free will -- the sort of free will that Kerrigan is oh-so-known for exhibiting -- just isn't an option for other Zerg. Now you say "Well why don't we MAKE it an option?!"
Cause you can't. The Zerg, Kerrigan being the VERY notable sole exception here, got to where they are by plot magic and not character development. Stukov's infestation didn't come at a turning point for himself, where he realized that interpersonal relationships were just not the way to go, that forming more was just asking to have people take advantage of you, and so decided to join this greater collective where he can never be emotionally damaged again.
Nuh-uh. He got acid goo sprayed on him. That did it. And unless we're willing to go through the fairly extensive process of ensuring every Zerg character's backstory supports their transformation into their respective Zerg character as part of their natural arc, something that is true of Kerrigan but likely as much through accident as through deliberate intent, these guys and gals are just going to be carbon copies of one another. And then we have to be OK with the Zerg suddenly having free will on such a scope that they can do anything. They can de-infest themselves. They can up and leave to spread the good word through non-violent means. They can become heroes as well as villains. They can become... well... not Zerg at all.
And that's not a problem if we stick to Brood War's model of having a single Zerg character for every 10 non-Zerg characters that the player interacts with in the campaign, but the whole point of this thread is to suggest we don't, to suggest we have a whole roster headed up by the Overmind, just like in the good ol' days. Can you imagine writing such arcs for a whole roster of characters JUST to ensure they're not carbon copies of one another?
Those good ol' days just aren't. They're the bad ol' days. Good riddance.
edit: I should clarify that I'd absolutely LOVE for the Zerg to get a shitton of characters THAT interesting. And if that's Blizz's plan, I'm 300% for it. But that's decidedly not what this thread is suggesting.
Re: Zerg were better off with the Overmind
I just hope you guys realize that Heart of the Swarm will be dealing with Kerrigan's Queens, and possibly other infested subordinates. But since there's no way that there could be character development here, some of you guys might want to skip out on that expansion. :rolleyes:
Re: Zerg were better off with the Overmind
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
I just hope you guys realize that Heart of the Swarm will be dealing with Kerrigan's Queens, and possibly other infested subordinates. But since there's no way that there could be character development here, some of you guys might want to skip out on that expansion. :rolleyes:
"I should clarify that I'd absolutely LOVE for the Zerg to get a shitton of characters THAT interesting. And if that's Blizz's plan, I'm 300% for it. But that's decidedly not what this thread is suggesting."
:)
Re: Zerg were better off with the Overmind
Well the Overmind is definitely better in term of epicness, but not in terms of character development..... unless
The overmind is the end point of Zerg "character development"
If Kerrigan essentially becomes a new overmind, finally getting over her desires for revenge to pursue power and perfection for its own sake.
If becoming the overmind is Kerrigan's "final epiphany" in HotS, where she perhaps has to deal with Zerg that she lost control of. (Queens/Intelligent Infested Terrans that somehow got 'broken off') then you have the character development, while returning to the standard epic impersonality.
Since I think what they did with the Undead in TFT is good... the undead started off as a tool of the legion, and then splintered and became a 'wild' form under sylvannus and a 'legion' form under arthas. Having the Zerg follow the same pathway permits for Zerg character development in SC2. And Character development in SC3 can pick up with the wild Zerg... (or possibly follow the same arch as the 'legion' Kerriganovermind falls and a 'wild' member in her ranks takes over.....and then slowly develops into an overmind of its own)
Re: Zerg were better off with the Overmind
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Gabriel Tosh, Tychus Findlay, Matt Horner, Ariel Hanson, James Raynor. What do these characters have in common? Anything and everything but their motivations for being aboard the Hyperion, and that's what makes them interesting.
Motivation for doing what you do is not the only facet of a character. How you do something, and why you do it that way, are interesting in and of themselves. This is the difference between the Overmind and Kerrigan.
The Overmind's tactics are simple, direct, and overwhelming. Kerrigan's tactics are subtle and manipulative, weaving plots and playing on their enemy's weakness rather than direct force. Why the difference? Because of where they came from. Kerrigan was a Ghost, a Special Forces operative. She's used to having to avoid direct force. That's how she thinks.
How you do something shows character. And if how you do things changes, then that shows how your character is changing.
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Just the sort of thing Zerg characters are unable to do.
Except that this has nothing to do with the Overmind. This is the fundamental nature of the Zerg; this is what makes them Zerg.
Kerrigan replaced the Overmind; that doesn't mean that her subordinates are now somehow capable of insubordination or having a particular motivation. If they are, then they must have given Kerrigan the Idiot Ball, big-time. And it fundamentally breaks the concept of the Zerg.
Re: Zerg were better off with the Overmind
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Originally Posted by
Nicol Bolas
Motivation for doing what you do is not the only facet of a character. How you do something, and why you do it that way, are interesting in and of themselves. This is the difference between the Overmind and Kerrigan.
Right, but the problem is: if the character's motivation isn't interesting, I'm not going to care about their development.
I'm only indirectly arguing against the Overmind's existence here. Directly, I'm arguing against a continuation of what the Overmind represents -- a hierarchy of single-minded characters that are incapable of forming genuine personal relationships we can empathize with and care about.
The problem is it's a little hard to imagine the Overmind co-existing with a large number of free agents such as Kerrigan. What if in their development and maturation, one of these agents decides he doesn't like being Zerg, and doesn't like what he's turned into? Is the Overmind just going to let him leave? I doubt that.
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Except that this has nothing to do with the Overmind. This is the fundamental nature of the Zerg; this is what makes them Zerg
Then that is what makes the Zerg unfit for being a playable campaign race.
Blizzard is under no obligation to feature a campaign for every single multiplayer race. Featuring a racial campaign is not a duty, it's an opportunity to tell stories of a personal, traditionally dramatic nature. If there are no/few such stories to tell, then they shouldn't waste time on it, period. If we want to preserve the fundamental nature of the Zerg then all we need to do is not feature them as a playable faction, but instead a malevolent, truly alien force lurking in the background, scaring the living daylights out of the characters we DO care about -- and are playing as.
If this is fundamentally Zerg, then either there should be no Zerg campaign, OR there should be very few Zerg characters in the Zerg campaign (Brood War), OR we need to accept that changes to the fundamental nature of the Zerg are necessary if they're going to continue playing a playable role in the campaigns (also to an extent Brood War).
Re: Zerg were better off with the Overmind
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nicol Bolas
You have a very narrow interpretation of character development and story.
A King orders one of his Knights to take part of his army and subjugate a country. There is immense story potential in this, depending on how the Knight goes about the task.
It could be a direct conquest. It could be more subtle subversion, playing different factions in the enemy country off against one another to weaken them. He could instigate a civil war. Perhaps he is a budding
Chessmaster, honing his skills.
His own subordinates could have different ideas about how to do this, sometimes in conflict. The Knight could try to keep the peace between them. Or perhaps he has to work with people he doesn't like or care for. Maybe some of his fellows are more or less bloodthirsty than he his, and he has to try to work against them.
And this is just what I came up with off the top of my head. All of these end in the same way: the Knight is still loyal to the King. But they all tell entirely different stories, with entirely different character arcs for the Knight.
But that isn't a decision. Yes, Kerrigan can go about her conquest as she desires, in her own fashion, but ultimately, what this means is that Kerrigan can't make any plot relevant decisions.
If she is in a position to make a decision that is truly hers, and is relevant to "The end of all things" or w/e, she would either be obeying the overmind, or rebelling. Sure, if she obeyed the overmind, she could carry out that decision as her personality dicated, but ultimately, as I said, she wouldn't be an agent character.
If she rebelled, chose a position contrary to the overmind, confliction would result, which would place us in the same position. Or it would end with a dead protagonist.
If she aligned with the overmind, the only room for development would be her motives. The only motive that could be would be she saw reason in allying with the overmind of her own agency. Which would mean she would be able to rationalize the motive of the overmind into a form that we, the audience, would understand. Which would bring us back to the problem of a humanized zerg. Oh ok, I'll ally with you Theovermind, you had father issues. That was a joke, but you get the gist of that line of thought.
If the Overminds motives were to continue to be alien, there would be no way to create a plot where kerrigan gets it, but we, as the audience, watching everything she does from a 3rd person adventure game style cam, would not
"Hey Zasz why is the overmind a meanie"
"qwewwzzqwwetqttqwsfqwwyywahhsrass"
"Oh ok"
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Kerrigan replaced the Overmind; that doesn't mean that her subordinates are now somehow capable of insubordination or having a particular motivation. If they are, then they must have given Kerrigan the Idiot Ball, big-time. And it fundamentally breaks the concept of the Zerg.
From the info we have, Kerrigans powers are still "young", she doesn't have control of all the zerg on the Koprulu sector. As a result, we know that they're are other emergent zerg intelligences vying for control, like that sapient ultralisk, other sapient infested terrans with there own small warbands and the rogue broods killing shit on auir. Chances are a cerebrates may have even emerged. This is the direct result of the overmind not existing anymore, and it gives us a lot of potential characters in the Zerg campaign, and creates a lot of interesting plot oppurtunities. I'd like to have a conversation with that talking Torrasque :p http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Wise_Old_Torrasque
As for zerg she already controls rebelling, well, we don't have any cases of that happening, but not all zerg are under her control. Not even close.
Also, I'm pretty sure a lot of higher up zerg have independent thoughts within the Hive mind. Specifically, Queens appear to do so due to there ability to telepathically bitch for more minnneraalls and the above strains seem to possess self emergent intelligence.
Re: Zerg were better off with the Overmind
I feel somewhat redundant after all this in-depth debate, but I'd have to say that some of Kerrigan's quotes were as good as the Overmind's, in their own way.
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Originally Posted by
ArcherofAiur
Awaken my child, and embrace the glory that is your birthright. Know that I am the Overmind; the eternal will of the Swarm, and that you have been created to serve me.
Gerard DuGalle: "You vastly underestimate me, my dear."
Infested Kerrigan: "I don't think so, Admiral. You see, at this point... I'm pretty much the Queen Bitch of the Universe. And not all of your little soldiers or space ships will stand in my way again."
And DuGalle's reaction to seeing Kerrigan was priceless.
"Who the... what the Hell are you?"
I like this quote because it reflects what a lot of people probably think of her. A monster, true, but moreso because she was once human.
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Originally Posted by
ArcherofAiur
Best video game villian...............ever.
Nein, Kerrigan and GLaDOS are much better.
And filling out the "Cosmic Janitor with a sociopathic work ethic" we have 343 Guilty Spark.
The Overmind worked good as a sort of Cthulhu character, the cosmic force giving you orders though...
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Originally Posted by
ArcherofAiur
And a damn good rapper.
True. It's almost as good as "Still Alive".
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Originally Posted by
newcomplex
From the info we have, Kerrigans powers are still "young", she doesn't have control of all the zerg on the Koprulu sector. As a result, we know that they're are other emergent zerg intelligences vying for control, like that sapient ultralisk, other sapient infested terrans with there own small warbands and the rogue broods killing shit on auir. Chances are a cerebrates may have even emerged. This is the direct result of the overmind not existing anymore, and it gives us a lot of potential characters in the Zerg campaign, and creates a lot of interesting plot oppurtunities. I'd like to have a conversation with that talking Torrasque :p
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Wise_Old_Torrasque
Meh...
I preferred the rebelling Defiler, even if it was a fairly silly Christmas map.
Re: Zerg were better off with the Overmind
If the overmind was strong enough to survive, it would have.
but Kerrigan represents cleverness, deceptive, and ability to interact.
and the Overmind is supposed be mysterious, flawless, and distant.
