Early game Scouting, an issue or intended?
I made this suggestion in a topic pertaining to Zerg lacking T1 AA options, and it occurred to me, this suggest affects more then just that, as well more then just Zerg.
Scouting your opponent should not come with out cost/risk - but the option should always be available. This concept is perfectly up Blizzards train of thought. They want you to make choices, but at the moment, it feels like if you can't scout your enemy, you aren't making a choice as much as you are making a gamble/risk they go the way you think they might.
Currently, aside of sending a worker into your enemy's base before they wall it off (Zerg can't wall of clearly) can yield you a vast amount of knowledge, if you know what to make of it all. The issue is a player can quickly change plans after being scouted early game pre-wall off, and if you have to wait till T2(Terran's being the only race capable pre-T2 with Scan) to scout again, then you play not so much a competitive early game as a gambling early game.
Why would Blizzard not want you to, again, at a cost...scout your enemy despite what point the game is at?
Until T2 and fast air units, what options past early worker scout do each race have?
Terran again, at a cost, can scan. Protoss and Zerg have to fast tech - and fast tech leaves one vulnerable to heavy early game attack - sure players take that risk...but why can we not have other options?
As far as Overlords go, in regards to T1(aka slow) they are an option, and indeed they are perhaps most useful at the moment vs Protoss very early, being they are actually the slowest to get to AA... or at least it comes at a different build; yet the issue remains that the cost is too heavy to scout early game with a Overlord once AA is out, because you truly must sacrifice that overlord...which is not the issue as the lack of information you can gather before that overlord dies with out getting the information you craved.
Currently, in my honest opinion, I think Terran are fine with scan. It's certainly not free, but it's there as an option as well a risk if they scan where the army isn't there.
I can't truly vouch for Protoss, but I want to say they are in the same boat as Zerg.
[This is only a suggestion, I'm not debating this as a balanced idea/suggestion as much as to give a idea as to how one could help pre-T2 scouting]At least as far as Zerg go, I think the Overlord speed upgrade dropping to T1 is an option. Adjust the cost so it's not cheap, as well consider that's 100mins and supply we risk sending out to spot enemy information. It's hard to truly compare it to Scan, and I'm just tossing it out there to see how people react to said train of thought, not per-say to state an unbalanced idea.
Edit: Another option of making Overseers available T1 without Changling till T2 a viable option - for that cost you get a fast overlord.
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I'm only 1 player however, and the common mistake we make is that we think we know best...yet if others agree scouting pre-T1 is an issue overall to how the game currently is, and offer reasonable suggestions, then we can go from there...and just maybe convince Blizzard of said issue...if one even exists.
Re: Early game Scouting, an issue or intended?
Nice fresh take on the scouting situation. I would like to add something on Zerg's behalf. It is possible for a Zerg to wall off, but they cannot do so as quickly as Terran or Toss. Pylons and Sups are at the very bottom of the tech tree. Zerg could use spine crawlers to wall off, after a fashion, but would need to sacrifice larvae for creep tumors early to keep them healthier, which may be too heavy a cost, for weaker Zerg players especially. Just a thought for anti-scouting measures. :)
As for aiding Zerg in scouting, I got nothing, alas, unless someone wants to discuss using the nydus network to hatch a few lings into an opponent's base, but again the tech-up issue is there. Also, if you're gonna go through all that to scout, you might as well send some roaches or hydras to remove some workers and maybe a few suppys/pylons at the same time. This is what is called the aggressive scouting play, in some circles. You just need to bear in mind that you can scout with any unit or combo thereof.
Re: Early game Scouting, an issue or intended?
One Overseer can scout an opponents base. Particularly with the Changeling.
Or a speed overlord. It's not that high up the tech-tree.
Before that, Zerglings are easy to make and can run around the map easily enough. Okay, you won't be able to see INTO his base. But you'll know when he's pushing out. If he pushes out. If he doesn't... just tech, expand, etc. etc.
Re: Early game Scouting, an issue or intended?
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this is what is called the aggressive scouting play, in some circles
That's an interesting counter point, yet I'll be honest...this sort of play is more common in advanced play styles. I'm going to state without proof that a high % of people who will play SC2 will not be in constant attack mode to scout their enemy.
Yet again, the reason this idea even came to mind was in regards to Zerg's lacking in early AA - so if they don't tech blindly in hopes to deal with early air harass, they get exposed...or if they tech fast instead...it can leave them open to a heavy T1 attack force that even a few mutas/hyrdas wont change the fate of that attack.
I'm fine with taking risks, that your build will fail vs the enemy's, but I'm not fine with being exposed to scouts by my enemy, and not* be able to scout them if I want too....knowing what your enemy has/is going is a big part of this game...so giving the option to know at a cost is what I'm disputing.
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Originally Posted by
Aldrius
One Overseer can scout an opponents base. Particularly with the Changeling.
Or a speed overlord. It's not that high up the tech-tree.
Before that, Zerglings are easy to make and can run around the map easily enough. Okay, you won't be able to see INTO his base. But you'll know when he's pushing out. If he pushes out. If he doesn't... just tech, expand, etc. etc.
To be more specific, I'm talking in regards to a terran/Protoss player that walls/chokes off his base and leaves you guessing if he is teching, massing T1, or even going air.
You have to guess at that, where as for the Zerg's case, we feel a bit more exposed and it seems much easier to see/predict what that player is going...where as aside of attacking them to see what they have atm is our only option. I like that option being there, but I don't like it being my only option, aside of taking a gamble at guessing what strat they are going.
The fact you mention T2 scouting tools again goes hand in hand with the issue that every second can matter if that player is going fast tech to Air or a S tank, and you won't know till you tech to T2 or get hit by it...again, the only other option is to attack first vs the wall; again, I'm for that option, but I'd like scouting to be anther option if I want to take that cost/route instead.
Re: Early game Scouting, an issue or intended?
Um, Bnet, Zerg tier 1 AA consists of Spore Crawlers (and who manages to get any real air units in tier 1-1.5 anyway?).
Re: Early game Scouting, an issue or intended?
Zerg can wall off against worker scout with 3 zerglings (some cases 2) at a choke. Or they can leave zerglings relatively close to the enemy base to pick it off before it even comes close. Also, sacrificing an overlord is a lower cost than a terran using scan.
A mule returns around 270 minerals per use, so using a scan over a mule effectively costs 270 minerals. An overlord costs 100 minerals. So, in effect, the zerg equivalent to terran scan is cheaper and can be more effective.
Zerg has some of the best scouting abilities in the game, 2nd only to toss in midgame with observers. Terran is dead last for scouting, but it has been that way for a long time.
Re: Early game Scouting, an issue or intended?
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To be more specific, I'm talking in regards to a terran/Protoss player that walls/chokes off his base and leaves you guessing if he is teching, massing T1, or even going air.
That's what Overlords are for.
Re: Early game Scouting, an issue or intended?
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Originally Posted by
Nicol Bolas
That's what Overlords are for.
This.
Re: Early game Scouting, an issue or intended?
@ MattII
The issue I have with Spore crawlers is tied into all static defenses. You are limited with what you can do with them as opposed to unit based Anti-Air - and queens are fine to a small extent...but if you don't tech fast and get hit by early voidray/banshee - spore crawlers will ether not cover enough of your base, or they'll be hampering your ability if they didn't get air...and you guessed wrong.
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Originally Posted by
TheRabidDeer
A mule returns around 270 minerals per use, so using a scan over a mule effectively costs 270 minerals. An overlord costs 100 minerals. So, in effect, the zerg equivalent to terran scan is cheaper and can be more effective.
Zerg has some of the best scouting abilities in the game, 2nd only to toss in midgame with observers. Terran is dead last for scouting, but it has been that way for a long time.
A Mule doesn't aid you in getting the proper attack force for what your enemy has or is planning to get. Scanning isn't cheap - yet knowing for sure if your enemy is teching or building a new construction can greatly aid you in making the proper adjustments to your force.
For all you guys referring to Overlords...first note in T1 they are slow. Second Note they die easily to even 1 marine. Also note that prior to early expand, every larava/mineral adds up - and would be well worth the cost if it's information gathered was more secure.
Are those that play Zerg seriously telling me that their enemy's are letting the overlord in T1 into their base to the point of spotting structure set-ups before they die off?
Ether I'm oblivious to just how much information they can gather vs an AA protected base at such slow speed, or those commenting their value are unaware of how lucky you'd have to be to get that information from said unit prior to T2 speed upgrade.
Re: Early game Scouting, an issue or intended?
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Originally Posted by
BnetGamer77
A Mule doesn't aid you in getting the proper attack force for what your enemy has or is planning to get. Scanning isn't cheap - yet knowing for sure if your enemy is teching or building a new construction can greatly aid you in making the proper adjustments to your force.
I never said it does, I was merely pointing out the cost of a scan to a terran. Scan can also miss very key things depending on the timing or location. Do you scan his main? What if he had key tech hidden? Scan is only one area and there are things that can be all over.
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For all you guys referring to Overlords...first note in T1 they are slow. Second Note they die easily to even 1 marine. Also note that prior to early expand, every larava/mineral adds up - and would be well worth the cost if it's information gathered was more secure.
Overlords dont just scout the base, they scout the entire map. If the enemy is getting an expansion SOMEWHERE on the map, you should know about it. If they are moving their army, you should know about it. And yes, you can scout into a base with an overlord and get just as much info as a scan depending on his base setup. Up to mid game most bases have holes somewhere on the sides that you can sneak in on to sacrifice an OL. I am not saying that losing an overlord is cheap, but it is an EXTREMELY good scout.
