Im not gonna lie. I miss this ability. What does everyone think about giving the Nexus an "Emergency Ability" like calldown supply and transfusion is for terran and zerg?
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Im not gonna lie. I miss this ability. What does everyone think about giving the Nexus an "Emergency Ability" like calldown supply and transfusion is for terran and zerg?
So... many... Hallucinations...
At the expense of Chrono Boost? Would you honestly trade additional real units for fake ones? I'd be more concerned with overly stormy weather.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
So here's the question:
Would it be worth spending the negligible amount of energy in all of your Nexuses to charge up 1 of them for the sake of casting Chrono Boost?
Thats the idea behind the "Emergency Abilities" (Calldown Supply, Transfusion).Quote:
Originally Posted by n00bonicPlague
These are abilities that give immidiate benefit with situational appropriateness. They arnt the defualt perfered but rather for emergency's.
Transfusion is still not an 'emergency ability'... =S If it was it'd be a horrible one because the Queen is so slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Argus Ling would be far too powerful to be an innate ability on the Nexus.
I disagree. One Chrono boost vs 50 or 25 energy sounds just right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
I still think that making Chrono Boost a channeling ability would help out big time.
Combining that with a channeling Argus Link on the Nexus could prove interesting.
The Protoss currently only have 4 units which use energy.
Sentry
High Templar
Phoenix
Mothership
Only 1 of those is a really viable unit right now. One is situational tech, but could be much more viable with Argus Link. One is the worst of all the cheap AtA units with a horrible ability. One is never ever seen because its a 400/400 Arbiter.
If Protoss had more uses for Argus Link, I'd support it. But they just... don't.
You still have the same definition for argus link? Transfer energy from nexus to a unit with energy like High Templar or sentry.
If it is this, it could be a good idea. Some build could include saving E in the nexus for when your HT come out you can storm the shit out of everything, at the cost of latter tech or poor econ.
Protoss will definatly get more spell casters in future expansions.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
I'm totally behind this - 'All-you-can-eat' Psi-Storm ftw...!
But that doesn't exactly help us NOW does it?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Quite frankly I don't feel the Protoss need any more units. Fix the Archon, Phoenix, and Mothership and they're set.
They might not need new units now, but they will if they want to combat the Terratron: coming in one year to a Terran line-up near you!Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
Expansions adding units is like an arms race. P might not lack anything now, but once we get "New Unit Type X" (ie, anti-caster in TFT) we're going to need something to take care of that type of unit type.... and so on, and so forth.
True, I guess I should have been more clear in that I meant I don't think any of the races need more units. Tweaks, yes. Replacements, maybe. But certainly not more. Hell, there are several units for each race which could be scrapped without affecting the balance at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by pure.Wasted
Phoenix are good, but Argus Link wouldn't help them. Because you kinda mass them so they get lots of energy very quickly.
It'd be useful with High Templar, and they're certainly very powerful. And that's my main concern.
The Mothership could certainly use it, being able to instantly cast Vortex when spawned, and such.
Anyway, come to think of it, I think the Khaydarin Amulet upgrades and such were intended as a substitute for Argus Link. The spells main purpose struck me as being able to cast these spells immediately upon spawning.
Yeah, we don't really need Argue Link. We could maybe use it if they ever fix the Scou... I MEAN Phoenix!
Seriously. The Phoenix has ZILCH in common with the Scout.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asfastasican
Mmmm that sounds nice..... More user fiendly. This way you dont have to check your nexus every 30 seconds, and you save unnecesary extra clicksQuote:
Originally Posted by n00bonicPlague
While at the same time defeating the entire purpose of the mechanic...Quote:
Originally Posted by KadajSouba
I don't think the protoss really need an emergency ability because the warpgate IS like their emergency ability.
Geez Archer — you make it sound like adding channeling will make it have zero clicks or something. It's not like CB will automatically stop when the process at the targeted building is done. You will have to stop it yourself. It will actually take about the same number of clicks that a one-shot boost would. Plus you will actually have to pay more attention to it so that you don't waste a single drop of energy. In some ways, making CB a channeling ability will actually require more macro than its current incarnation.
Your right n00b it wouldnt make it zero clicks. But it would decrease the clicks and focus required to macro.Quote:
Originally Posted by n00bonicPlague
It would make it a "change only when your decision change". Weve approached this from a unit production angle when we talked about autocasting workers/units. There is no default "only click when changing decision" convention in Starcraft.
Yeah. The Scout acctually did ok AtA damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
All the Phoenix does is poke at Mutalisks.
On that matter, wondering if people have tried Void Rays vs Battlecruiser. BC's have 3 armor naturally, so at the start your beam only does 2/s until it ramps up to lvl 2. Since the change, lvl1 beam lasts longer (since there is no lvl2) and it does VERY WEAK damage to BC's. Void Rays are supposed to be Protoss' counter to Armored Air units, but it seems they got really nerfed in this way.
Void Rays can be countered by Vikings as well, so a BC there to take hits and Vikings taking down protoss Air seems to be a pretty rough combo.
I faced this off on Twilight Fortress, the massive 2v2 turtle map (I hate is so much) and I couldn't figure any way to beat this other than mass stalkers; which is really dumb since the opponent had mass marauder early on swapping tech to viking/BC support. I had Zealot/Sentry/Void Ray to counter this, but even 8 Void Rays were unable to really put a dent on 2 BC's with viking support. I was able to take out 1 BC at the cost of way too many VRays.
If someone sat at their gateway and made nothing but Zealots, yeah, he/she would only have to click like once per Nexus. But that's not how the game goes, is it? Players are constantly switching between buildings making all sorts of units and doing all sorts of research. The number of clicks needed for a channeling version of CB would fluctuate from nearly nothing at the beginning of the game to far more than the one-shot CB could ever hope to come near to.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
And focus? What focus? People are using TIMERS so that they know EXACTLY when to go back to cast CB again. If it was a channeling ability, the time would always change according to whatever was being trained or researched — and everything has a different amount of time. If that unit or upgrade finishes before you go back to switch CB to something else, you waste valuable energy. The focus required would be ridiculously high.
Also, channeling CB could only be used on one thing at a time. The current version is literally fire-and-forget. You drop a few CBs and go right back to what you were doing — rinse and repeat. If something stupid happens, you start up a few units and hit the training buildings with CB. With channeling, players would have to regularly go back and either target something else or turn it off. Also, if crap happens, they'll have to move CB to something else in order to get those reinforcements faster, while the special research will have to wait.
All around, channeling CB will require MORE macro, focus-wise and click-wise. The catch is that it will actually make more sense than what we have now and will thus be more comprehensible and less annoying.
Decisions can change in less than a second — far more often and far more random than every 30 seconds. Are you sure you actually support more challenging macro?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
There also is no default "must click every 30 seconds" convention.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Cost-for-cost Phoenix do quadruple the damage that the Scout did to Mutalisks in SC1.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
So no. Killing Mutalisks is something the Phoenix does well.
Sorta... they're not going to spend much time NOT charged up against a unit with 600 health.Quote:
Since the change, lvl1 beam lasts longer (since there is no lvl2) and it does VERY WEAK damage to BC's. Void Rays are supposed to be Protoss' counter to Armored Air units, but it seems they got really nerfed in this way.
Its the ONLY thing it does well. Its completely useless outside ZvP. Its a piece of shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Actually the amount of Time a Void ray spends 'not charged up' has little to do with the units health....Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
the unit's health has to do with whether the Void Rays charge up at all.
Basically if you have a group of Void rays it will be X seconds before they can be charged up.
IF they get charged up, they can only do that if they fail to kill a unit in that time.
so basically Void rays are a "Battle time limit" They are only Really useful if they survive for X Seconds.
So if you are Fighting Void Rays, you want to Focus Fire as much as you can, to kill as much as you can before the Time limit.
If You have Void Rays, you Don't want to kill Anything before the time limit. (the less you kill before the time limit, the more you kill after the time limit)
So you don't want to focus fire...unless those are units you won't be able to get the boost on anyways (Marines/Hydras, etc.)
As much as I would love to see chain-storm, I think it would be much too powerful.
Eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Krikkitone
It has tons to do with the unit's health. Void Rays only lose their charge when they don't attack for like 4 seconds after a fight. So against a unit with 600 HP the fight will be long and they'll spend plenty of time charged up.
NoQuote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
How Long they spend charged up has to do with how long the battle goes
Whether they are charged up or not is the only thing affected by unit hp.
For example, getting
1 Void ray v. 150 Probes (6000 hp worth)..... the void ray will spend 0 time charged up, because the Probes don't have enough hp to charge it up
1 Void Ray v. 48 Marauders (6000 hp worth)... the void ray will spend X seconds charging and Y seconds charged up
1 Void ray v. 10 Ultras (6000 hp worth).... the void ray will spend X seconds Charging, and Y seconds charged up
1 Void ray v. 4 CC (6000 hp worth) ... the void ray will spend X seconds charging, and Y seconds Charged up
Notice that the last 3 options are all Exactly the same,
X is how long a void ray takes to charge up (10-15 attacks I believe?) and
Y is how long a charged up void ray takes to kill the remainder of 6000 hp
So no matter how big your units are, Void rays won't charge up for the first X seconds.
If you Increase the number of Void rays/other units, that also won't affect the fact that they will take X seconds to charge up.
What you CAN affect is whether the void rays charge up AT ALL
so 10 Void Rays (focus firing) v. 48 Marauders...means the void rays will never Charge up. (because they will never get to full charge before killing thier target)
Which means for Void Rays, If you are fighting units that you Can Charge up on, you want to a-move (so they tend to spread thier attacks), or specifically separate their attacks and Then focus fire once they are charged. (after X seconds)
also 10 Void Rays (focus firing) v. 4 CCs..... X seconds charging up and Z seconds fully charged (Z is less than 1/10 of Y)
So Void rays are a unit that doesn't Mass as well.... 2 Void Rays are Not Twice as good as 1 Void Ray. (the opposite of the Carrier whose Range means that Overwhelming numbers can prevent you from taking damage... ie 2 Carriers are More than twice as good as 1 Carrier)
Yes they are. They keep their charge even when they kill a unit now. (Though there's still a SLIGHT delay when re-engaging. But they'll keep charging up I'm pretty sure.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Krikkitone
They only LOSE their charge when they STOP firing for x number of seconds. So against probes, they'll charge up in the same amount of time they will against anything. As long as they keep reengaging targets.
So no, Void Rays are no different. Focus-firing with them is as good as it is with any other unit.
Yeah but right now, gateway is practically non existant. Warpgates are always on any protoss game. If you make chrono a channeled ability, gateway queue would turn more useful, making a nice competition against the warpgate mechanic. You make 5 zealots (or any gateway unit to fill your queue), and forget about it for some time. A simple Hotkey to check your gate way , and you can cancel your Chronoboost.Quote:
Originally Posted by n00bonicPlague
What do you think???
Oh and by the way, whats argus link???? :p
I forgot about it... I deserve to die....
I know that they don't LOSE their charge, but I thought the 'charge counter' reset everytime they killed a unit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
If not, then
1. Focus firing is what they want to do (like any other unit)
2. The hp of the individual enemy units are totally irrelevant (They will kill CCs in the same time that they will kill Marauder armies, assuming both armies have the same # of hp)
3. Doubling the size of your army won't allow it to survive a void ray attack for 2x as long
4. Doubling the size of a Void Ray force won't allow it to kill an army in 1/2 the time
To illustrate #4
Lets say I am Killing a 600 hp ultralisk
Lets say a Void Ray does 10 shots of 5 damage each before it charges up and then does 25 damage
1 Void ray will kill an Ultralisk in 10 (50 damage) + 22 (550 damage)=32 shots
2 Void rays will kill it in 10 (100 damage both are shooting) +10 (500 damage)=20 shots
3 Void rays will kill it in 10 (150 damage) + 6 (450 damage) = 16 shots
So to kill it in 1/2 the time, you need 3x as many void rays
of course for 1 Void Ray to Kill 2 Ultralisks takes
10 (50 damage) + 46 (1150 damage)=56 shots (not twice as long as killing 1)
So void rays are most effective when the army sizes are small (on both sides)
This means that all Void Rays are is anti-armored... and they effectively have "negative range" ie units can attack them before they can really attack back.
What it comes down to is they are Weak to high dps:hp units (which can kill them before they Really do damage) and strong v low dps:hp units (at least armored ones)
So they are really only strong v. Low dps:hp armored units
As you just demonstrated, a single Void Ray is more efficient at killing two Ultralisks than it is at killing one. So Void Rays are in fact more effective when used against larger armies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krikkitone
1VR vs 1UL takes 32 shots
Average shots per Ultralisk = 32
1VR vs 2UL takes 56 shots
Average shots per Ultralisk = 28
1VR vs 3UL takes 80 shots
Average shots per Ultralisk = 26.6
1VR vs 4UL takes 104 shots
Average shots per Ultralisk = 26
At this point it's going to remain about the same, although it'll keep getting slightly better into infinity (or less, if there's some math whizes around bored enough to disprove my elementary understanding of statistics :p).
So you don't want them facing "small" armies, but at some point the size of the army will stop generating worthwhile benefits. The VR does not then become less efficient, it just stops becoming more efficient than before, so there's really no net loss to having it fight huge battles.