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Should it really be its own tech building? I find this to be a needless extra step.
Why not have it accessable through HT tech like before? It's not like having access to both DT and HT too powerful a combination. It's like getting a Dark Shrine with access to HT; or a Templar Archives with access to DT. Why are these separated into different tech buildings?
its probably for scouting reasons so the enemy knows to build detectors if they see one. But if that where the case you could still have them both from the archives and still be scoutable. Maybe its to regulate how fast you can get them because of the fact that overlords can no longer detect.
Because Dark and High Templar have completely separate counters. And they are very powerful together... =|
Dark templar are very dangerous too. they do a load of damage and can three shot a roach with upgrades. you snipe the overseer and send in the DTs and no amount of hydras will save them. Im pretty sure having to go the extra step is to discourage rushing them. That way they wont appear in the early game like they did in sc1 I always hated hearing that sound 5 minutes into the game. This way they are timed to appear in the mid game where everyone has a chance to get detectors. it makes it a bit more fair but it takes away a bit of utility from the DT as they no longer can be rushed effectively
Dark Shrine should have upgrades. All buildings do more than allow for certain units to be made. Once you make a Dark Shrine, there's nothing else needed for it. It's just the single building, with no upgrades available. if DTs have upgrades, like all other units in the game, players may think more about going down the DT line.
i mean they cost the MOST gas of all buildings in the game ! don't have upgrades...And i just don't understand lorewise in SC1 they fused in different archons BUT had a single building ! ,now they have two buildings but fuse into one Archon ???? The Dark shrine is a useless building...Oh yeah and considering that DT's now cost 125/125 rather than 125/50,They have higher damage BUT lower attack speed...Overall a complete screwing of the whole DT Strategy...
Yeah. I was so pissed in the first game about the citadel of adun building. One fuckin building just for one upgrade. Of course you required the building so you could construct more but that was more like a forced thing.
Now with the dark shrine we are back to the same, or even worse. A building that does nothing. You could make available the dark templars through a tech research, instead of having to build something that has no real purpose. Maybe turning it into a shield battery could work...
I think its fine, DTs are damn good in this game.
What if the Dark Templar became a spell-caster as well as a combat unit (and maybe couldn't become an Archon)?
The only problem with DTs is the availability of detectors other than that they are an awsome unit. I Think its kinda odd that the terrans need alot less gas that the protoss especially when you have very strong and cheap combat units like the mauraders(25 gas) and the viking(75 gas). Compare that to a stalker(50 gas) and the Mediocre pheonix(100 gas) and I thik there might be a problem. The only saving grace when you compare gass prices is the ghost costing 150 gas the same as a HT only differance it the ghost can actually attack, snipe Emp, cloak and nuke as well as dose bonus to light all the Ht can do is feedback and storm and turn into the currently useless archon. Who in their right mind would sacrifice two templar for an archon. Two Dts have way more value than an archon despite how easily thay are countered by detectors.
Once the enemy has detection, your DT are screwed, so i really think it was a bad decision to use a building specially for them. Specially considering that Robotics unlock 3 essential units, and then Colossi.
At least the Twilight Council is a common building, because Charge is essential, so you're really only one building from HTs or DTs. Still, it's probably much better to use the money on Robotics most of the time.
If they wanted to nerf DT they should have nerfed their attack, not the ability to create them at all.
The problem isn't in DT, so lets not get into ideas on changing the DT. The problem is getting access to units without having to branch out multiple tech paths simply to unlock one unit.
It's simply not as viable to have access to HT and DT WHILE maintaining reasonable tech to have access to Robo Bay and Stargate units. The time and resources put into unlocking DT just as a support unit (for harassment or otherwise) is easily countered with detection and is not very dependable thereafter.
It's a risky situation where if you're rushing Dark Shrine, it may work; but if your opponent is able to prevent/counter said rush, then you've hit a dead end with this tech branch.
That's not true at all. =|Quote:
Once the enemy has detection, your DT are screwed
If DTs were viable in SC1 in ZvP with Overlords all over the damn place, they're certainly viable in SC2 with gas-heavy Overseers.
Not really... you can still GO Templar Archives easily enough, you can still get those awesome stalker/zealot abilites at the Twilight Council.Quote:
It's a risky situation where if you're rushing Dark Shrine, it may work; but if your opponent is able to prevent/counter said rush, then you've hit a dead end with this tech branch.
It's the gateway tree, it boosts your gateway units. And you can still make Archons out of those now 'useless' dark templar.
Watch the recent Day 9 daily's. DT's are still a viable strategy.
Templar Archives is not an easy tech switch. It's a very gas-heavy investment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
First you need gas to make the building. Then you need Gas to get Psi Storm upgrade. Then you need Gas to get out at least 2 HT. A Colossus would be a more viable tech switch at that point (Robo fac, Support bay), and you at least get access to Immortals, Warp prisms and Observers with that tech.
It is simple... the protoss don't have too much buildings, each one unlock two units (except for Twilight council and basic gateway)... There is no much estrategy in the construction of 3 structures to complety a tech
It's not easy, but by going Dark Shrine you got a Twilight Council and still have access to the Templar Archives easier than you would have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron
Going Colossi at that point is still more expensive, and High Templar have advantages that Colossi don't.
Well templar tech requires alot more finese to use. Pheonix and Dt have a great affinity for eachother just like corsair and Dts. Im pretty sure that you can go deep down one path while still being able to get the basics of one or both of the other branches. The only problem is that protoss has to commit to one tech branch more than the others
Things I could see at the Dark Shrine
1. Upgrades for the Stalker (Greater Range on blink... make it ~16 or decreased Cooldown)
2. Upgrades for the Void Ray (Decreased Charge time)
3. Abilities for the Archon. (3 energy using Abilities, each giving +50 max energy.. and a separate upgrade giving +50 max and staring energy)
There will be to many spellcasters,they only need one ability that is easy to use,probably can also have autocast...,but considering they have splash,it's not a good idea...Quote:
Originally Posted by Krikkitone
The question is: WHo uses dark templars to create archons??? So far nobody has done it, right?????
That "tech" looks so improvised and retarded... I dont think i will sacrifice 2 excellent ground units for une single "powerful" unit. And it looks ugly. Instead I prefer to sacrifice two high templars with zero energy.
If you don't have the extra 100 gas for HT merge...and if your DT's are close to dying OR have very small amout of hp and you don't want to wait for shield recharge....Quote:
Originally Posted by KadajSouba
DTs weren't that viable vs zerg in SC1 from what I've seen.Quote:
If DTs were viable in SC1 in ZvP with Overlords all over the damn place, they're certainly viable in SC2 with gas-heavy Overseers.
In my latest beta game, I held off a Dark Templar attack on my main base with zerglings, roaches, a spine crawler... and an overseer. The DTs probably didn't kill anything but a few zerglings.
Blizzard just wants to nerf stealth. But it's not so bad; after all, you're not likely to have detectors everywhere. They're expensive; even observers cost a lot now! In that last game I was just talking about, I didn't have an overseer at my expansion. One dark templar could have cut me down. (As it was, I nearly lost that expansion to mass sentries.) And said protoss player could often stop my burrowed roaches with an observer... but often, they could not.
Quote:
DTs weren't that viable vs zerg in SC1 from what I've seen.
What o.0
You got overlords all the time, and could upgrade their speed by the time the protoss had dark templar out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandsnake
If you didn't have overlords around all your bases and accompanying your attacking troops, you had a problem.
despite that. DT's were(/are) used, with success in sc/bw ... the general air dominance of the corair in PvZ combined with the cors extreme mobility etc, it was viable at high levels of play. we've seen it in tournaments etc...
Does that even make sense?
DT/corsair is only a combo in lore. Unless I somehow missed Disruption Web turning off detectors.
DTs in PvZ are viable in BW because of Corsairs, that are dirt-cheap and have a lot of power vs unarmored units like the Overlords. However, good Zerg anti-air can screw that strategy, and now they have Corrupters.
You can use them to force a Terran player to use the Scanner, but once a base has detection, they're not likely to cause serious problems there.
They aren't useless, but they are very expensive, can only attack ground, don't have any special abilities besides Cloaking, aren't specially resistant to damage (a Zealot has more HP than them), and are on a very specific tech path. Their only advantage is raw damage and Cloaking, that can be taken care of by detection.
Once detected, they become a slow Zealot with double the DPS and less HP (and a lot more expensive).
Dude... do a Forge fast expand before that and then you've got the Bisu build. A build that made him rise high in the ranks of the pro league. The Corsair's chase the overlords off, whilst the DT's snipe drones/expansions.Quote:
DT/corsair is only a combo in lore. Unless I somehow missed Disruption Web turning off detectors.
Uh, well, Scourge were certainly worse for stopping corsairs than corruptors are for stopping phoenix. Phoenix can just completely outrun and outmaneuver the corruptors.Quote:
However, good Zerg anti-air can screw that strategy, and now they have Corrupters.
I think Phoenix/DT is still a viable strategy anyway. Just maybe not as effective or simple as it was with it's SC1 equivalent.
No its not and a good zerg player will take advantage of that. Maybe thats why the pheonix hasnt seen any love from blizz. if they made it too strong then Pheonix dt would totally destroy zerg. Dts against terrans are a good thing though because it forces him to use his energy for scans instead of mules and you can run out of scans really quick if you keep the pressure on once that happens hes screwed unless he has ravens.
South Korea is a country that only exists in lore. Unless I missed someone creating a colony of Starcraft-enthusiasts that outplay all westerners with ease.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimera757
ArcherofAuir has taught you well.Quote:
Originally Posted by LegacyofTerra
I can sorta see which they gave DT's their own separate building, but I feel like the baneling nest is even less necessary. Why not just have an upgrade on the spawning pool to allow for baneling mutation? It might allow for more people to consider using banelings.
1. can simultaneously upgrade Zerglings and get access to BanelingsQuote:
Originally Posted by Asfastasican
2. Baneling+Zergling making abilities are Sniped seperately
3. gaining Baneling ability costs an additional Larve (to make the drone)
finally Zerg can go with 1 building per unit accessed (except Corrupter and Overseer) because they only need 1 type of 'Production' building which is also their main economy building.
The Temple of Adun was pointless; its only importance rest in Zealot speed and a jumpng stone to High Templar. It didn't provide access to a unit, in and of itself.
The Dark Shrine seems less superfluous to me than a Citadel.
I think templar tech is expensive because it benifits the gateways you have already built. You dont need 10 templar archives to produce templars instead you just need one and you can warp them in anywhere you want. Its a one time investment albeit a heafty one. the abilities of that part of the tree cuopled with the warpgates makes it very dangerous. That might be why they put in an extra step.
People have been using the word "Tension" a lot lately.
Would it add "tension" by keeping these two Units at the same structure (Archives)? Deciding whether to rush with assassins, or cast out some casters? An opponent that's scouted your base wouldn't know, so they'd have to prepare for both. I can see benefits to gameplay in that...
Again, nerfing the DT by making it impossible to get is just stupid. Lower the cost of the building, lower the power of the unit. Let its cloak be accessible and the selling point.