Patch 8

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Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

The hydralisk HP change is really the only thing I truly approve out of this patch. I'm also fine with the roach armor decrease.

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I THOUGHT WE WERE FRIENDS! :(

Naturally, these are the things I dislike most about the patch :P. The Roach nerf doesn't bother me too much - what really bothers me is the Hydra nerf. 10 Hp is pretty huge. Two Colossi can now one-shot Hydralisks again, and Psi Storm hurts even more.

Oh, and Siege Tanks, too >_<.

Patch 7 Psi Storm still tore through Zerg ground, now I'm worried about how much harder it's going to be to keep those expensive Hydras alive :[. I don't think that Psi Storm will kill Hydras outright because it deals 80 damage and Hydras would regen at least 1 HP by the time Psi Storm finishes its run, but it's still going to hurt a LOT >_<.

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Originally Posted by Xyvik

There are far more important problems facing SC2 than just BCs at the moment.

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So the fact that nobody is using this unit aint important????? Thats the same reason (or one of the reaons) why blizzard killed the Lurker. Nobody was using it.

It think its big fuckin problem if the purpose of a unit is to get covered by dust... Space dust if you want...

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Originally Posted by KadajSouba

So the fact that nobody is using this unit aint important????? Thats the same reason (or one of the reaons) why blizzard killed the Lurker. Nobody was using it.

It think its big fuckin problem if the purpose of a unit is to get covered by dust... Space dust if you want...

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Actually I've seen it used in four of my matches (and I've only played about 30/40 total) so 1/10 is a pretty big ratio for the latest tier unit in the game.

I agree that it needs looked at, but the problem is that most games never even get past Tier 2. So if the early/mid game is wrecked, why would they work on something that would never get used anyway because the games never last that long?


Oh, and sorry DSquid :D

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Originally Posted by Xyvik

Actually I've seen it used in four of my matches (and I've only played about 30/40 total) so 1/10 is a pretty big ratio for the latest tier unit in the game.

I agree that it needs looked at, but the problem is that most games never even get past Tier 2. So if the early/mid game is wrecked, why would they work on something that would never get used anyway because the games never last that long?


Oh, and sorry DSquid :D

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What league are you in? It's not used at all competitively.

I mean, why even get BCs? There are better alternatives.

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Originally Posted by Hamshank

What league are you in? It's not used at all competitively.

I mean, why even get BCs? There are better alternatives.

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This. Just because you see it in 1/10 out of "newbie" games, the very POINT of which is to experiment, doesn't mean the unit is actually useful in any way whatsoever.

The Lurker was cut for failing a lot less than the BC. If Blizzard were being fair, they'd have cut the BC long before they touched the Lurker.

I am quite happy about the roach nerf of the +2 armor, but i really don't get the nerf on the movement on burrowed roaches.

I feel like they have just turned a never used upgrade, atlease in pro-league
into an even more terrible upgrade.

I was extremely surprised about the hydra's -10 on hp. I really felt like hydras were perfect and didn't need any changes. This will hurt so badly like what someone said ahead of me, because Colossus will be able to cause "TERRIBLE TERRIBLE DAMAGE" to hydra's even thought they have been nerfed.

If hydras are to get this nerf. i think they should be given their speed upgrade back to be able to better dodge psi storms.......DONT FLAME ME U PROTOSS PLAYERS xd

The roach nerf was very expected and i guess could bring the balance to alittle closer to the middile...

The change of concussive missile seemed pretty interesting now that i think of it. I could open up more choices for terran players such as getting concussive missile upgrade or stimpack. probably conceussive if the player is going mass zealot or zerglings.

The mech buffs were good for the siege tanks but i really feel that the decrease of production time of the Thor i believe is 15 second (forgive me if im off alittle) is alittle too much. There are already now really strong AA and this is going to trigger a bunch of people to start doing Thor rushes to become so much quickier and deadlier seeing those SCV's repair it as if it was a walking PF...sick.

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Originally Posted by GRUNT

I THOUGHT WE WERE FRIENDS! :(

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Awww :( We're still friends! My tanks are just gonna pwn your hydras a bit more from now on, nothing to worry about :D

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

So what you're saying is Blizz actually wants me to get Hellions at some point.



Hmm...

Well, the problem there is, Hellions become dead weight the moment the P researches Charge. T is forced to rely on his M-ball once more. Should something be done to prolong Hellion efficiency vs. Zealots, even into the late game?

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Hellions do have a range upgrade on the tech lab, so I guess that would help somewhat if you micro. If you're still trying to hard counter Zealots in the late game it might be time to go banshees.

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Originally Posted by KadajSouba

Still the Battlecruiser remains untouched.... What the hell...

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Whats wrong with BCs? I think they're plenty powerful right now. I've seen them in some games, but now that they attack faster they're more like Carriers where you need to kinda mass them, or they shouldn't be alone at least.

Battlecruisers need to have their shots reduced, and damage increased. So there is more front loaded damage. It currently takes too long. I'd rather it shoot only 3 shots doing 16 dmg than 6 shots doing 8 dmg.

The real problem with units like Carriers and BCs is that they're expensive. So to compete with cheaper units, they need to be able to be useful in smaller numbers. But if they are, then what happens is that, in greater numbers, they're devastating.

So 1 powerful BC comes out and is able to do something significant. Two comes out, and with the help of the rest of the Terran army, they push the enemy back, maybe even killing an expansion. Three come out, and the enemy is backed against the wall.

Really, the Mothership has the right of this: the restriction of making only one means that it can be very powerful.

I've actually been wondering something: are Carriers with the Intercepter upgrade more powerful even if you only get, say, 2 of them? Are they worth the cost? Has anyone even tried to use a few Carriers acting as support units with the special upgrade, instead of, say, going for Colossi?

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Battlecruisers need to have their shots reduced, and damage increased. So there is more front loaded damage. It currently takes too long. I'd rather it shoot only 3 shots doing 16 dmg than 6 shots doing 8 dmg.

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That's not how BCs work. They don't have salvos; they just fire really, really fast.

That's not how BCs work? I apparently remember them firing ONE single shot in SC1.

Well, all the people that cried nerf got what they wanted. And we even got our unexplained complimentary Protoss nerf as well! Good patch I say! :)

Just wait until Zerg gets nerfed into a weak blobbing mass of units for AOE's to eat them up, and then players will ask "Well where's our Deflier!?"

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That's not how BCs work? I apparently remember them firing ONE single shot in SC1.

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They fire one single shot now. That shot simply does more damage and has a higher rate of fire. The salvo thing is from an older version of SC2.

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Originally Posted by arthas

duh? If i don't play the game why the hell do you think i bother with this forum,hm? neural parasite hard to pull off? why the hell will you say that? It's perfect,considering you don't rely solely on infestors,they will be protected very good by hydras or roaches,And yeah spreding mutas is not that easy for me BUT still considering that most platinum players have double or even triple my own APM,i doubt they couldn't do it....

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has anyone tryed using your infestors in a flank vs those large targets. like take your main army and distract his while you take a small group of infestors and either roaches or hydras amd come from the side. in the confusion it should be alot easyer to NP those large units. Zerg dont have much options strategicly but they have tons tactically.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

This. Just because you see it in 1/10 out of "newbie" games, the very POINT of which is to experiment, doesn't mean the unit is actually useful in any way whatsoever.

The Lurker was cut for failing a lot less than the BC. If Blizzard were being fair, they'd have cut the BC long before they touched the Lurker.

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FYI it was used by Platinums when I was in the Silver league. And yeah, I usually beat it. But it was still used. You missed completely my point of why they don't need to look at the BC yet. Maybe go back and actually read the whole post, huh?

Zerg really got smashed hard this patch, will be interesting to play!!

Hydras now die in one hit from thors before there +1 upgrade and will be even worse vs hellions Stanks and pretty much everything. Roach nerf was expected but still a big deal!

Mech vs Zerg is 100% viable now (and it was already getting popular)


Toss vs Zerg now is easier, roach/hydra armys becoming more easy to handle storm and colossi being much better, with no buffs - and zealots will still not beat roaches from what I can tell lol but it'll be more fair (they should be able to beat zealots anyway).

ZvZ will be the same +1 roaches still 2 shot lings, so a safe roach player will win.


Oh boy I picked a day to wake up late lol

Good luck figuring everything out AGAIN guys :D

god i love patches, I say this every patch but this is the best part of beta lol


Concussion shells requiring a upgrade is fine I GUESS, even thugh it kinda makes me sad - but its fine! The marauder rushes were really really hard to stop, specially if they were proxy. With the mech changes they'll be more meching terrans but this change wont stop us from massing marauders(i odnt think they care about that as much) but it still stop us from rallying our first 2-3 marauders over ot the tosses base and almost win no matter what they do.

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Originally Posted by Xyvik

FYI it was used by Platinums when I was in the Silver league. And yeah, I usually beat it. But it was still used. You missed completely my point of why they don't need to look at the BC yet. Maybe go back and actually read the whole post, huh?

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Because there's problems lower in the tech tree?

Newsflash: Lurkers were in T3, too.

And Platinum doesn't mean anything. I'm sitting very comfortably at the end of the Top 8 of my gold division, and I have an average frame rate of 5-8. That means with a better computer, Plat is easily guaranteed. And I'd be hard pressed to say I really know how the game plays.

What the hell is this BC discussion its a very effective unit o.0 It comes out somewhat often in long games

They'll look at the BC when they see fit, theres no particular order they SHOULD follow. RIght now there obviously worried about terran mech and the whole maraduer roach compaints.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

And Platinum doesn't mean anything. I'm sitting very comfortably at the end of the Top 8 of my gold division, and I have an average frame rate of 5-8. That means with a better computer, Plat is easily guaranteed. And I'd be hard pressed to say I really know how the game plays.

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While Platinum definitely means "something" in 1v1 play at least (because I'm plat. in 2v2, before the wipe at top 10 with MellowFellow and totally undeserving) it definitely doesn't mean you're the best.

Why? You can get into Plat. easily with the placement matches. I think the system is flawed and needs at least 10 matches to fully gauge what you're in.

As well, as many of our members have brought up before there needs to be more leagues if the intent is to truely classify skill. Platinum even is a pretty broad range.

So I'm going to have to agree with Pure.wasted here.

Yeah, naturally I was exaggerating. Bronze over copper means "something" and silver over bronze means "something," and so on and so forth. But Plat is way too easy to get into for that to hold up any weight in arguments.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

I've actually been wondering something: are Carriers with the Intercepter upgrade more powerful even if you only get, say, 2 of them? Are they worth the cost? Has anyone even tried to use a few Carriers acting as support units with the special upgrade, instead of, say, going for Colossi?



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Yep,the upgrade deals a lot of fast initial damage,And the point is that you can get carrier only with 350/250 and then 100 minerals for 50% more damage i think it's worthed,and they usually come out not in 120 sec but 90-thx to CB,and with 8 range they are both more usefull and easily protected than the 6 range slower BC,The very fact that they can be microwed more easily makes them usefull in support...The only thing i don't like about the protoss air is the cost of the fleet beacon(really hate when they stick to 'original' prices)

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

So 1 powerful BC comes out and is able to do something significant.

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Errrr, have you seen what a single battlecruiser can do????? Its worth shit. The powerful thing is something out from your wet dreams, or the dream s from everybody, included me. Thats what the Battlecruiser should be, but it isnt.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

That's not how BCs work. They don't have salvos; they just fire really, really fast.

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I really think you havent seen a battle cruiser in-game man. I dont blame you, almost nobody has. They need like 10 shots to kill a single unit. And each shot is affected by armor. Its way better to have less but more powerful shots. Way more effective since the armor reduction doesnt affects the damage that much.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

They fire one single shot now. That shot simply does more damage and has a higher rate of fire. The salvo thing is from an older version of SC2.

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Lol what???? 6 is higher than 25????? or what do you mean???

Excellent. I hate these changes - seems entirely TLjerk (knee jerk). As was said earlier, the way this is going, its GG for SC2.

On the up side, perhaps this is like the 'Tearing apart, before the complete rethink/rebuild, before the awesome game release" like what happened during the SC1 beta. :)

Now my roaches will burn so easily under Stalker fire. Great. Just great.

The change i hate the most is the hydralisks reduced hp....I mean do you guys think it's normal for a 100/50/2/33 unit to have 80hp,0 armor ???

Marauder
Concussive Shells now require an upgrade.
This one doesn't make sense to me. It's supposed to be a support unit for the Marine at low tiers, right? If anything, they should had keeped slow, but only vs Light units, and lower the damage. If more damage is needed late game, add an upgrade for that.

Void Ray
Changed to only have 2 damage levels instead of 3. Still takes the same amount of time to fully charge.
Base damage changed from 2 (+4 armored) to 5.
Powered-up damage changed from 8 (+16 armored) to 10 (+15 armored).
Armor value decreased from 1 to 0.
Cost increased from 200/150 to 250/150.
I read that as making it less of a hard counter unit.

Roach
Burrowed move speed decreased from 2 to 1.4.
Armor value decreased from 2 to 1.
They still insist with burrowed movement. I that too powerfull? Seriously, i think that the Roach needs to be a resistant unit, but it shouldn't be as effective vs Armored units as it's vs Zealots, Zerglings, and Marines. I would just give the unit a bonus vs Light, and lower the base damage.

Hydralisk
Life decreased from 90 to 80.
Are they still T2 and cost more than in BW? Because then they shouldn't be nerfed, or would be too bad for cost.

I feel like with this patch, protoss immortals are having a field day. Considering they take only 40 seconds to build (wtf - dont forget chrono) and absolutely wipe the floor with marauders and roaches, protoss ground is virtually unstoppable at a certain point unless u can get in a lucky emp blast.

granted, i'm not the best player, but after a 5 game losing streak as terran yesterday i switched to toss and just pumped immortals for several easy wins.

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Errrr, have you seen what a single battlecruiser can do????? Its worth shit.

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I was being hypothetical. As in, "If they buffed BCs so that 1 was powerful..."

Please pay attention.

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I really think you havent seen a battle cruiser in-game man.

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Considering I got creamed by them last night (thanks in part to the needless Hydralisk nerf), I'd say I have.

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They need like 10 shots to kill a single unit. And each shot is affected by armor. Its way better to have less but more powerful shots. Way more effective since the armor reduction doesnt affects the damage that much.

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That creates weakness. The Thor has pretty good damage over time. The reason why it sucks against Zerglings is because that damage over time is dealt in large packets and slow cooldown. Fast cooldown with low damage means you get to spread your damage around evenly. Killing a Zergling with a 10 damage shot means it takes 4 shots. It may only take 2 with a 25-damage shot, but the 2 shots will waste 15 damage, while the 4 shots will only waste 5. Given the same DPS, the 10 damage shot will get out a fifth shot on a different unit.

Yes, this also makes them more susceptible to armor. But the only things BCs have to worry about with respect to armor are things they should be Yamato-ing anyway.

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On the up side, perhaps this is like the 'Tearing apart, before the complete rethink/rebuild, before the awesome game release" like what happened during the SC1 beta.

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I'm really getting sick of this misinformation about the SC1 beta radically altering the game. That didn't happen!

The radical alteration of the game happened while the game was in development, not in beta. It happened a good year before the beta. The most radical things they did in SC1's Beta were:

1: Removing most spellcaster attacks.

2: Putting the Glaive Wurm on Mutalisks.

Everything else was just tweaking, polishing, and moving things around. So I'd advise against holding out hope for any substantial modifications of SC2.

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They still insist with burrowed movement. I that too powerfull? Seriously, i think that the Roach needs to be a resistant unit, but it shouldn't be as effective vs Armored units as it's vs Zealots, Zerglings, and Marines. I would just give the unit a bonus vs Light, and lower the base damage.

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What good is that? Zerg already have Banelings that are anti-light, in more ways than one. Why build Roaches?

The point of burrowed movement is to give the Zerg a pseudo-cloaked unit that can do some sneaky shenanigans. Also, unburrowing a bunch of Roaches in some Marauders can work wonders.

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This one doesn't make sense to me. It's supposed to be a support unit for the Marine at low tiers, right?

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It's the Terran tier 1.5 unit. It serves in a dual support role, but it's also the other main tier 1 unit for the Terran.

I don't get the research requirement either, but the Marauder is not just a support unit.

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They still insist with burrowed movement. I that too powerfull? Seriously, i think that the Roach needs to be a resistant unit, but it shouldn't be as effective vs Armored units as it's vs Zealots, Zerglings, and Marines. I would just give the unit a bonus vs Light, and lower the base damage.

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It's not a hard counter unit. It will never have a bonus like that.

Honestly, I don't know why you think it should do so little damage to stalkers, other roaches and marauders. It's pretty weak now. Upgraded marines, zealots and zerglings will wipe the floor with it.

Making it do 8 + 8 versus light would make it so specialized it'd be worthless.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Considering I got creamed by them last night (thanks in part to the needless Hydralisk nerf), I'd say I have.


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Wow,i expected you to be the last person who will not use corruptors vs BC's and almost in all games Zerg has more map control and expos than Terran,I guess you were right all along getting a BC is a waste i'd rather put it on tanks or seekers and ravens.....

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I don't get the research requirement either

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The purpose of the research is to make Zealots more useful vs. Marauders early on. The slowing effect was really killing the Protoss's ability to stop an early Marauder-based timing push. They could just kite them to death. The research disrupts the timing, costing 4 Marauders worth of gas and 80 precious seconds.

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i expected you to be the last person who will not use corruptors vs BC's

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I didn't see them for some time (I thought he was getting a Fusion Core for Ravens after some failed Banshee harass). And I already had a stable of upgraded Hydralisks. I figured that they should have been able to handle it. I may watch the replay later, but unless he got some kind of hidden expo, he only did it off of 2 bases. I was two-basing myself, but I didn't think I needed a third, since his Banshees failed to do anything.

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The purpose of the research is to make Zealots more useful vs. Marauders early on. The slowing effect was really killing the Protoss's ability to stop an early Marauder-based timing push.

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I know. I just don't get why they didn't just reduce the Marauder's damage against light targets. The concussion missile creates a pretty good buffer anyway. So it wouldn't make it TOO hard a counter.

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I just don't get why they didn't just reduce the Marauder's damage against light targets.

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If you can kite them, it doesn't matter how much damage you do.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

If you can kite them, it doesn't matter how much damage you do.

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If you can kite your opponent's whole army, he's doing something wrong. I don't see that as an argument. I would have been more in favor of nerfing hp rather than damage though.

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Originally Posted by Hammy

If you can kite your opponent's whole army, he's doing something wrong. I don't see that as an argument. I would have been more in favor of nerfing hp rather than damage though.

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What units are immune to kiting? Stalkers.

What units are Marauders good against? Stalkers.

See the problem? ;)

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

What units are immune to kiting? Stalkers.

What units are Marauders good against? Stalkers.

See the problem? ;)

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Thanks for the insight! ;)
I say "whole army" because, for example, if the P has zealots/stalkers, the T's army will be taking hits from ranged for as long as they're kiting, and if they deal less damage they will be kiting for longer, hence increasing the damage they take. I'm not saying that the couple of hits that stalkers will send out while the zealots are getting owned are enough (they aren't, otherwise players wouldn't bother kiting, and I agree that marauders own zealots a bit too badly pre-patch), but my point is that the game isn't all black and white as bolas seems to suggest in his post: "If you can kite them, it doesn't matter how much damage you do."
In fact, when we're talking about a real game scenario and not theorycrafting, the amount of damage done is very relevant because of the number of hits it would take to kill those zealots by kiting them while other stuff is going on all around.

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Originally Posted by Hammy

In fact, when we're talking about a real game scenario and not theorycrafting, the amount of damage done is very relevant because of the number of hits it would take to kill those zealots by kiting them while other stuff is going on all around.

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Fair enough. I've been noticing the adverse effects of theorycraft all too well recently. Things that have no right to work on paper work perfectly in-game, and the opposite is no less true. There's no substitute for playing and trying.

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I say "whole army" because, for example, if the P has zealots/stalkers, the T's army will be taking hits from ranged for as long as they're kiting

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From who?

If you have Zealots and Stalkers, and actually want your Zealots to be part of the fight, then the Zealots are in front of the Stalkers. They're between the Stalkers and the Marauders. That means the Marauders can get range on your Zealots while being out of range of your Stalkers.

That was the problem. Zealots would be killed, then the Marauders could stop kiting and straight-up kill your Stalkers.

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In fact, when we're talking about a real game scenario and not theorycrafting, the amount of damage done is very relevant because of the number of hits it would take to kill those zealots by kiting them while other stuff is going on all around.

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The good thing about this change is how targeted it is.

Marines really don't care much about the stun effect. Yes, it has some effect, but not much. Zerglings really don't care. Not vs. mass Marauders. The early-game unit that is primarily harmed by the stun is Zealots.

Nerfing the damage against non-armored targets would make them less effective against Zealots per unit time, true. But it would also needlessly make them less effective against Marines and Zerglings.

It is best when nerfing something to nerf exactly and only what you intend.

Even as a Terran player, I think the move of Concussion to an upgrade may be a good thing.
It always seemed a bit too effective to me.

The worst part is that the Void Ray attack animation isn't going to make any sense now. They should start with 3 and the small beam, then stay with 3 and the large beam. I'm also gonna miss the nice note progression the Void Rays made.

You can't kite forever Nicol. This isn't WoW arenas. Their are like, bases you have to defend nicol. And walls.