Is Blizzard's League system going to keep non-hardcore players in the game?

The whole point of the League system was to encourage players of all skill levels to play. I believe Blizzard was under the impression that Bnet can be an intimidating environment for a relatively unskilled player, and so casual players tend to shy away from it.

By dividing people into Leagues based on skill, Blizzard hopes to encourage even mediocre players to play competitively, since they'll be ranked against people of their skill level.

However (and I hope you don't mind using this as an example, LyLunah!), LyLunah just said in her thread:

Quote:

---

ya I lsot all my 1v1 placement matches.. I'm in the copper rank.. v.v

I need to cheer up a bit.. that's got me quite pissed. I'm going to play La Tale.

---

I'm not trying to belittle LyLunah - I think that anyone who wants to play the game is great. The problem is that despite these measures to make the game less intimidating for newbies, it still seems to be kinda psychologically discouraging to lose all your placement matches, or even to just be in the Copper league. I'm sure some players would quit trying to play competitively altogether rather than try to get better.

Also, it seems as though Blizzard has done quite a few waves of Beta invites, even after their initial attempt to keep numbers around 10,000. I get the impression that people are dropping off, and this is worrying because it's the beta! Entry at the moment is by invitation-only, so you'd think that the people who get in would be people who really want to play the game, and yet Blizzard still seems to need to invite more folks to maintain the population size that they want.

Despite the League system, I can't help but worry that in the end, the casual and less-skilled players are going to drop off as comparatively fast as WarCraft 3's casual crowd.

I think losing all your matches is discouraging period, stupid non-ranked matches. Seriously, a few days ago I decided to warm up in a few non-ranked matches. All I got was Gold/Platinum ranked players, I'm only Silver. Only won one match that day.

I think there might be less of a problem with being in lower ranks, up until people start discriminating based on rank. Things like you don't know what you're talking about, you are only in Copper rank or You're bad, you are only in Copper rank.

I also don't expect casual players to participate in the Ladder system anyways, I expect them to play Custom matches with their friends for the most part.

I don't think you need to worry about people dropping off the beta, I mean it got allot of wow, old diablo and single playing SC1 players, going hay lets try this hype stuff.
And it is not a newbie friendly environment as of now, the ladder doesn’t work properly, and there are no tutorial and only a really easy computer to beat.
And on top of that, when I read though the B.net forums I seam to see a lot of people don’t quiet getting that it is a beta, and that it has flaws.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rdragon87

Seriously, a few days ago I decided to warm up in a few non-ranked matches

---

Out of subject : But how can you do unranked match oO to warn up?! I thought you couldn't.

if they fix so there is a lobby "like" system, so they can hang out and go play, chat and relax on battlenet. then i think the system will work just fine.
in my oppinion

Why, is lobby important, well currently we are playing in a big void, just whispering our m8s. like talking with your eyes closed, its not that fun after the first 5minutes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by After7days

if they fix so there is a lobby "like" system, so they can hang out and go play, chat and relax on battlenet. then i think the system will work just fine.
in my oppinion

Why, is lobby important, well currently we are playing in a big void, just whispering our m8s. like talking with your eyes closed, its not that fun after the first 5minutes.

---

Form a party. And this has nothing to do with losing games.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DeathsAngel

Out of subject : But how can you do unranked match oO to warn up?! I thought you couldn't.

---

It's on the right side of the screen it'll be Join/Create game. It says Custom games are not ranked. Just hit Join game, it'll dump you in a lobby or create a lobby for you. Just becareful, it will put you up against anyone available.

Quote:

---

Despite the League system, I can't help but worry that in the end, the casual and less-skilled players are going to drop off as comparatively fast as WarCraft 3's casual crowd.

---

I couldn't disagree more, I have friends in most of the divions and its so cool to see people attualy exited to raise there rank even if there in copper or bronze, plus it gives them achievable goals! (and a tournament within there grasp)

What more do you want! I love it.

Quote:

---

I'm not trying to belittle LyLunah - I think that anyone who wants to play the game is great. The problem is that despite these measures to make the game less intimidating for newbies, it still seems to be kinda psychologically discouraging to lose all your placement matches, or even to just be in the Copper league. I'm sure some players would quit trying to play competitively altogether rather than try to get better.

---

I think that the placement matches will be better balenced, even now if you select the middle option when it asked you how much you've played you wont play the platinum players. But my point is bassicaly right now matchmaking is tuned to GIVE you a game asap not match it the best. When the game come out there going to have those multi-player tutorials plus the better placement matches.


I mean im sure some people will be "sad" that they got creamed in placement but if they really do give up that easily theres not much they can do, the reason the placement matches exist is to match you based on your skill!

I think it will be fine, much better than taking the leap into war3 ladder or something. I think the league system will make them feel not so behind, being rank 50 in copper is much better than being rank 5600.

Plus I think most new players will be coming into the game will have friends to practice with at first( specially the WoW players). And they can play custom games, im sure they'll be a ton of games that are like "1v1 Newbs only" the first few days :d.

I woulnd't worry about the 10k players problem (right now theres 10.3k people on the USA server alone) the reactions to this game seem really good, and beta is not as new player friend as the release will be (as i said above)

Well, I can only base my comments on having played 2-3 days in the beta, after a friend of mine who received a key from the first wave, who hasn't played ANY ranked matches during that time, and only plays with his friends, decided to let me go and have a go at the real testing of this game.

I'm not a good player, but I agree that the ranked matches and their matchmaking system can be frightening for new players. I really got pwnd the first two days.
BUT, today I played better - I guess I'm getting used to playing terran - and since I'd gotten up to 5th in the Copper League, I really want to get in the top 10 now that I'm more less stuck in the 10-20s. Anyhoo. It would seem that the matchmaking system gets better the more you play, so it's just a question of keeping "casual" players enough 'till they get comfortable and the system gets to work better.

But then again. Need to test more.

Newbies will love the new ladder system. A lot of people I knew stopped playing the original StarCraft because they could play all day and not win once. The new ladder completely solves this issue. In fact I feel that the new ladder system is extremely prone to under ranking you. People don't really get a real handle on the game until about game 20. So many aren't figuring it out until after they've been ranked.

The only real problem is that new players just seem to take it too seriously. They don't want to put themselves out there until they're ready, because it's supposed to be a competitive thing. If they lose it's like a serious hit to their pride. That's why I like how the ladder system has been given such a prominent position. If you enjoy playing the game you'll just plow through that. You'll quickly realize that it's just not a big deal, and is really just there to help you find worthy opponents.

Also the 5 matches they did this time around just isn't enough. I didn't feel I really got a handle on the game until about match 20, and that was only by carefully studying replays.
________
Park Royal 2 Condo Pattaya

I never enjoyed ladder, nor do I find myself enjoying the leagues system of this game. That's not to say it will stop me from playing. It's just I've always enjoyed custom games and games against friends more than ladder.

I don't think it's so bad. If you're a half decent player and lose all your placement matches then you probably just got a bad draw. But it's the same for me when I join a 2v2 or 3v3 on SC1. Sometimes my team's good, sometimes they're terrible. Sometimes you just get unlucky. But if you're going to get upset over losing 5 matches then the problem stems deeper than the placement system. There's always custom games + the final product which will have oh so much more to do than play ladder.

Also with people dropping off, the majority of opt-ins are random and from what I've seen there's been heaps of WoW players getting them. So most people who actually got a key never really cared for StarCraft or perhaps RTS games in particular, or just prefer playing them casually or on singleplayer. This is all fine for the players and more Blizzards fault for the random opt-ins. However, if they're not satisfied with the number of active players the solution is as simple as inviting more players.

As long as noob have ways to learn the game before taking the placement matches it should be ok. There needs to be comprehensive tutorials that makes you learn all the basic. Those tutorial shouldn't just tell you stuff like "yeah this building make this kind of unit" but also stuff like "never stop building workers, try to always use your minerals, expand, etc". I think this is really the big problem with Warcraft 3 or starcraft. They make you learn the what every building/units do but doesn't go too much in how you actually should play the game. To learn all this stuff you need to go on fansites and such; something that a lot of noob wouldn't bother doing. It would also be good if there was a game analyzer that tells you some of the basic stuff you did wrong.

Some might argue that having all those information so easily at your disposition would dumb down the game or would take the fun of learning away but I disagree. Mastering all the techniques will still be something hard and serious players would eventually go search for the information anyways. This would just be more convenient. Also, those tips/guidelines would mostly just be useful for lower level players. More hardcore players wouldn't need this stuff at the level they are playing.

I do think some players will get turned down as well. I don't know if the practice league is going to get players to the area where they can compete if they have never played starcraft before.

Blizzard has stated that there is a good amount of content dedicated to getting players ready for multilayer competitive play, and I have faith in their plans.

Though, those who are getting placed automatically in copper for losing 5 games straight does sound a bit discouraging. Maybe if your that bad, the game should let you rejoin the practice league and eventually get to try your luck again at placing. Unless the copper league is meant to be full of these new players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GRUNT

The whole point of the League system was to encourage players of all skill levels to play. I believe Blizzard was under the impression that Bnet can be an intimidating environment for a relatively unskilled player, and so casual players tend to shy away from it.

By dividing people into Leagues based on skill, Blizzard hopes to encourage even mediocre players to play competitively, since they'll be ranked against people of their skill level.

However (and I hope you don't mind using this as an example, LyLunah!), LyLunah just said in her thread:



I'm not trying to belittle LyLunah - I think that anyone who wants to play the game is great. The problem is that despite these measures to make the game less intimidating for newbies, it still seems to be kinda psychologically discouraging to lose all your placement matches, or even to just be in the Copper league. I'm sure some players would quit trying to play competitively altogether rather than try to get better.

Also, it seems as though Blizzard has done quite a few waves of Beta invites, even after their initial attempt to keep numbers around 10,000. I get the impression that people are dropping off, and this is worrying because it's the beta! Entry at the moment is by invitation-only, so you'd think that the people who get in would be people who really want to play the game, and yet Blizzard still seems to need to invite more folks to maintain the population size that they want.

Despite the League system, I can't help but worry that in the end, the casual and less-skilled players are going to drop off as comparatively fast as WarCraft 3's casual crowd.

---

StarCraft 2's casual crowd will probably be bigger than WC3's, because they are taking larger measures for accessibility, but I don't think it will get to the point where "oh, your grandma can play StarCraft II". There's just only so much you can do to make an RTS that casual friendly. I think once the practice league and challenges from SP are implemented you'll see more newbies coming to the game.

Also, I bet a lot of the people who signed up for the betas are not casual gamers. So people who are newbies and are coming into the beta aren't getting a real idea of what the final product will be like, since most of the players are most likely experienced with RTSs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

As long as noob have ways to learn the game before taking the placement matches it should be ok. There needs to be comprehensive tutorials that makes you learn all the basic. Those tutorial shouldn't just tell you stuff like "yeah this building make this kind of unit" but also stuff like "never stop building workers, try to always use your minerals, expand, etc". I think this is really the big problem with Warcraft 3 or starcraft. They make you learn the what every building/units do but doesn't go too much in how you actually should play the game. To learn all this stuff you need to go on fansites and such; something that a lot of noob wouldn't bother doing. It would also be good if there was a game analyzer that tells you some of the basic stuff you did wrong.

Some might argue that having all those information so easily at your disposition would dumb down the game or would take the fun of learning away but I disagree. Mastering all the techniques will still be something hard and serious players would eventually go search for the information anyways. This would just be more convenient. Also, those tips/guidelines would mostly just be useful for lower level players. More hardcore players wouldn't need this stuff at the level they are playing.

---

I agree with this as well. Obviously to be a top player you're going to need to visit the fansites and see what the other top players are doing all the time to keep improving further, but a more integrated tutorial that explains some enter level to advanced multiplayer strategies and techniques is only going to make a lot better players.

Still, losing 5 games in a row would not discourage me from working harder to become a better player. But the beta is a watered down and incomplete product, plus it's free, so if people aren't happy with the game in it's current state I hope it doesn't deter them from the final product.

I really don't get what the OP was getting at. This new system is going to have a crack at solving the smurf problem and pit players of similar skill levels against each other. How can this system be any worse than older Blizzard games or other matching in other games?

You can make an argument detailing how matchmaking in this new generation of games has changed gaming for the worse, but Blizzard's new system looks like a breathe of fresh air.

I disagree with the OP.

Blizzard isn't necessarily trying to make new players play competitively. Blizzard loves casual players. They're still buying the game, and (hopefully) still playing online. Who cares if they want to stay in copper? For some players, that's preferably to being constantly beat on by higher-league players.

Of course, some players will want to become competitive but that's fine too. Said players, I think, are more likely to train (with challenges, etc) before they even start.

After the beat wipe I lost all 5 of my placement matches (so ended up in copper). It wasn't a horrible deal. I got close to winning some of the later three games, and instead of getting steamrolled, I had a fun (albeit losing) match. And of course (once the game is actually out) newbies won't be "thrown to the wolves". They'll have learned micro (at least for terrans) in the campaign, go through challenges and maybe even played co-op vs AI and 2v2/3v3/4v4 before they play their first placement matches for 1 vs 1.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hbackstylez

Though, those who are getting placed automatically in copper for losing 5 games straight does sound a bit discouraging. Maybe if your that bad, the game should let you rejoin the practice league and eventually get to try your luck again at placing. Unless the copper league is meant to be full of these new players.

---

I disagree. The players in the Practice League tended to be total newbs. There's actually a skill gap between practice and copper. (I tried it out, but left after only two games. I'd probably get more challenge out of the beginner AI.)

I recall reading that the developers are actually going to include an optional training segment as part of the package in order to get people warmed-up to multiplayer gameplay. Also, since there is a severe lack of numbers in the beta, the ladder isn't working quite properly since there isn't a large enough pool to choose from. Things will vastly improve upon and slightly after release.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by n00bonicPlague

I recall reading that the developers are actually going to include an optional training segment as part of the package in order to get people warmed-up to multiplayer gameplay. Also, since there is a severe lack of numbers in the beta, the ladder isn't working quite properly since there isn't a large enough pool to choose from. Things will vastly improve upon and slightly after release.

---

Quite right. Once release hits there will be vast numbers of inexperienced players who can play against each other and will be able to win 50% of the time. I also think the practise leagues will makea huge difference, especially if you don't have to do placement matches before you go into them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rdragon87

I also don't expect casual players to participate in the Ladder system anyways, I expect them to play Custom matches with their friends for the most part.

---

I think this actually hit the nail on the head :p. I realise now that as I started playing more and more with some of the other forumers here, I just stopped laddering altogether :p. The fact that I recently had to play a soul-crushing 5 ZvZ games in a row on ladder also helped :p.

I'm curious though - what's the point of 'removing LAN so that everyone plays on Bnet' if everyone just sticks to their own little playgroups and doesn't interact with the rest of Bnet? :p

Quote:

---

I also don't expect casual players to participate in the Ladder system anyways, I expect them to play Custom matches with their friends for the most part.

---

I wouldn't expect that behavior to last. Friends rarely have the same skill level.

My ladder experience;



I’m in the beta! Woohoo! Let's play some Starcraft! Now given it has been ages since I last played an RTS I played the first five matches in practise league. I absolutely curve stomped the opposition given the players I was playing against they also got their key the very same day. Great I thought, this is really fun.

I don't like 1v1 because it is too intense, not in the fashion that it requires more APM than other game modes, but intensive in the way that it's you versus someone else and you can't drop the ball for even a second. Therefore I tried 2v2 random, the random partner relaxes the games because you can always blame it on the other guy.

Great, now I got the game mode down lets play! With the influx of new players on that very day, my placement matches were against new players all the way through. I won 4-1 with the loss being due to an afk partner. Great I thought, were does that place me?

Platinum league rank 6.

Shit.

The next twenty matches I've spent being more or less brutally curve stomped because the new people I was supposed to play against in my platinum division aren't available. Therefore I play against other platinum players from other divisions, who have deserved their placement from going through the silver and gold league.

So, the placement system didn't work out for me. People are right in that it is beta and it is not supposed to work properly. But, it sucks and further than that it also points to the placement system being faulty. Instead of going by wins and losses which it predominantly seems to be doing at the moment (I know other parameters also factor in such as APM and unspent resources), it could look at how many games the player has played total for instance.