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Now I'm confused. You analogize Marauders in the Barracks to having Siege Tanks in the Barracks. Then you say that Marauders (analogus to Siege Tanks, remember) are "too well rounded". Thing, you say that Siege Tanks, the Marauder analog, are "too specialized."
You have to pick one. Either Marauders are too well rounded and thus are generalists which, by your own logic, are perfectly acceptable in the Barracks. Or Marauders are specialists like Siege Tanks. Which is it?
This doesn't even make sense.
Marauders lack counters (specifically in PvT), hence are "too well rounded". Siegetanks may not lack counters, (they don't), but that isn't the point of contention. The siege tank fulfills a too dynamic role. It changes the dynamic of the game. That specialization does not belong in such a early tier. I don't understand how thats a hard concept. Their is no contradiction, its too seperate statements.
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Ignoring for the moment whether these are problems or not, let's say that everything you said is true. How does the Immortal's DPS fit into this? Immortals counter Siege mode Tanks hard. They counter them, not because of their damage output, but because of their hardened shields.
Hardened shields have essentially nothing to do with their ability to melt Roaches; that's primarily defined by their DPS. You could take Hardened shields away from Immortals, and the Immortal timing push would lose essentially none of its sting.
No, they hard counter siege tanks because they 3 shot them. I assure you, they would not hard counter siege tanks should they do say, 25 damage flat.
They combine two elements. The first one is survivability, the other is enormous DPS. That is what fundamentally breaks them. The DPS part needs to be removed. Removing the sheilds would really accomplish the same effect, but would weaken their identity.
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The thing that lets Immortals counter Terran Mech has essentially nothing to do with the thing that lets Immortals counter Roaches.
No. This just wrong. 3 shotting tanks is what allows them to counter mech way more then their shield does. Look, I run 3 immortals into your tank line, and your tanks die. Like, instantly. That is what allows them to counter terran mech. Then, I send the rest of my forces in. Shields are almost never present for more then ~2-3 hits due to emp.
You know what, your next question answers this one.
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Why doesn't that get used more often? I don't know. Maybe it doesn't actually work. Or maybe it hasn't been discovered yet. Once upon a time, high-level players thought Hellions were useless; notsomuch these days. Hell, I'm still living in fear of the day that Terrans realize that Thors can be carried by Medivacs, and that two 250mm Strike Cannon shots plus 3 arm cannon shots will kill a Hatchery..
Because Immortals do 50 damage. Your main race is zerg. Please don't pretend you have a wider range of experience. You don't. The thing that kills tanks isn't the shields, the shields are almost never their for more then 3 shots due to EMP anyway. The shields are a nice bonus.
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Watching other people play would only stifle my own creativity.
Do you actually think this? "I don't go to school, learning what other people think would stifle my own creativity".
Progress is gained by standing on the shoulder's of giants.
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This is a month and a half into beta. Not everything has been figured out yet. The fact that things are one way does not mean that this is the only way that things can be. This is why it is important to be Blizzard. Because, while most of the high-level players are busy learning from each other's builds, with one or two trying to innovate here and there, Blizzard can actually get (for example) David Kim to develop a specific build to see if it is functional. And if it isn't, then they can start investigating why and what to change to make it functional.
So your suggestion is like The Mauls. "THIS IS BETA ITS ONLY BEEN A MONTH SO NOBODY KNOWS WHAT THEY"RE DOING, AND ALL COMMENTS ABOUT BALANCE ARE INVALID".
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So again, what does this have to do with the Roach? Your problem is that the only way to stop Immortals as Terran is to make Barracks units, that Immortals hard-counter everything the Factory creates (which, btw, is not accurate. They don't hard-counter Hellions). Hardened shields have nothing to do with their effectiveness vs. Roaches.
Wow. Thats my point. Mech play is no longer viable. You respond "just make a lot of marines". Seriously?
Diversifying is great, but they'res a limit, you can't possible expect someone to get tanks, the rest of the mech units, marines, and medivacs to support marines. Thats absurd.
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Furthermore, Immortal Hardened shields can be destroyed with a simple EMP. One Barracks support unit. An Immortal without shields will die quick and bloody to any Factory tech. And yes, that means that you have to actually use that Barracks you built to get a Factory. Oh no; you have to diversify your tech a bit; the horror
You have quite the superiority complex here. Has it ever occurred to you that your not the only one to think of using EMP, a spell that does 100 shield damage, on immortals, a unit that has precisely 100 shields? Even with EMP, Mech play is unusable. Because of the fact that immortals do FIFTY DAMAGE.
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Also, this is rather hypocritical of you. After all, you're perfectly willing to have all Barracks units be elementally weak to AoE. So willing in fact that AoE has to be "corrected" (ie: nerfed) to make this idea of Barracks play viable. But Factory units can't be elementally weak to something too? Why? Is this more of the blind, ridiculous, and obsessive Factory love from a SC1 player?
Elementally weak? They are, they lack mobility. Thats a intrinsic weakness. Are you telling me the immortals +30 damage against armored is "intrinsic"? This isn't "blind love", this is realizing that terran can potentially accommodate two incredibly distinctive playstyles, and isn't, because the immortal does too much damage.
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It's also assuming that, wonder of wonders, the Protoss player actually allowed the Roaches to get within firing range of the Immortals. This never happens in a real game. In a real game, Roaches are stopped by Force Fields, Zealots, or Stalkers, usually some combination of those. They will never get within spitting distance of Immortals.
wow do you think I don't play this game or something? Ok, the protoss has 3 immortals. What else is going to have? Enough zealots to physically stop your roaches? Then kite back and kill, you move faster then the immortal on creep. Are you seriously suggesting that roaches are unable to hit an immortal in a game? This is just so wrong. Have you even watched a high level game? Oh yeah, nevermind.
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Maybe if you're out in the field, but most choke points (you know, those things in front of your base where you're trying to defend. Or the things Protoss players can make at will) don't really allow that. You may get 6 across before they have to stack.
....The smallest expansion choke, the LT choke, is 10x1. (And if you haven't expanded by the time protoss get 3 immortals, your doing it wrong) Roaches are smaller then 1x1. No. What game are you playing?
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And what you're talking about is the basic property of ranged units. That being, by the fact that they have range, more of them can shoot at shorter ranged units than can shoot back at them. The property is intrinsic: more ranged units (up to a ball big enough ) is more powerful than more melee units. This is regardless of what those ranged units are or how much damage they do. Eventually, you reach a critical mass.
yea.
k.
So?
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First, the placement of STs in the tree never stopped Terrans in SC1 from getting them ASAP vs. Protoss. Second, Siege Tanks very much do not need to Siege to kill Roaches. They do lots of damage with their regular gun, at over 2x the Roach's range. Roaches simply will not be able to fire back.
Third, again, getting Siege Mode to stop Dragoon harassment of the wall-in and Siege expanding never stopped Terrans in SC1.
I'm not suggesting that this is the way it should be. But stop acting like the balance is something so fragile that if something is slightly overpowered the whole game implodes. One of the reasons that SC1 has lasted so long is that it is actually quite difficult to make the game imbalanced at higher levels of play (unless you are intentionally trying to break it, of course). People adapt, and skilled players more than others.
The removal of the Marauder isnt "slight". And no, unsiege tanked are terrible against roaches. Your doing 15 DPS. Roaches do 8 DPS. Siege tanks cost a lot more then roaches.
And toss isn't zerg. Toss aren't expansion oriented. The earliest you could get tanks would be at ~4:30, 5 until units arrive. Until ~4 minutes, the zerg can afford to sink every piece of money into eco, getting a 2 saturated bases.
