Zerg, the most mundane race to play?
So I've been playing zerg for a while now exclusively just to get a hang of it and the race just feels so mundane.
Comparing macro mechanics:
Terran, you get 3 choices, if you need minerals, you get the mule, if you need scouting you scan and if you need supply, you do the supply drop. All three are very viable in game and I've used it very often. When you have multiple command centers your choices become easier since you can do multiple things.
Protoss, you still get 3 choices. If you need fast probes, you speed up nexus, if you need fast research you speed up, or production speed up you can select the specific buildings. Similar to Terran, with multiple nexii, your choices become easier since you can speed multiple things when you want.
Zerg however, are opposite. With more hatcheries and queens, your workload becomes more and more. Every 10 seconds you have to be boosting your hatcheries with queens. The rewards become less since you reach a point where you don't really need that massive amount of larva, and it just becomes insurance policy just in case you need to rebuild your army quick.
Creep tumor is fun, but completely useless on a queen. Since the only reason for you to really use it is when your macro becomes lax and queen has extra energy.
The third spell is so situational it is really pointless to be on a queen. Far too hard to use.
Comparing early/mid game:
Protoss, you have lots of choices, you can zealot rush with sentry support. You have free reign with the stalker since it can shoot both ground and air and it's not a bad support to zealots. Immortal for anti-armor or rush with void rays.
Terran, you have lots of choices. Marine, marauder for anti-armor, you got medivac coming up. You can harass with Viking or banshee. Hellion also great for anti-light. Tanks are actualy incredibly strong in their unsieged form as well (I took out an army of stalkers / immortals with a bunch of unsieged tanks and marines, very surprised)
Now comes zerg. Okay, zerglings, seem to be useless when they have zealots or hellions. They also seem much weaker in SC2 than in SC1. Maybe because it's hard to select each one of them or micro them since they're so elongated rather than circular. Then you *have* to go roaches... then you go mutas. Like what do you do? Mutas no longer form into anti-ground or anti-air. So they're singular use is really just to harass. Now that Thors knock them outof the sky instantly, they seem pretty weak. Hydralisks aren't really the do it all any longer, they cost quite a lot and no longer 1 supply and 100/50 !?!? The queen is an incredibly useless unit since it's slow as hell off creep. Trying to micro it is just useless. Infestors are just SO fat on the battlefield. They're usually the first to be concetrated off since it's so easy to get them (even if you misclick a roach you'll probably hit an infestor). Plus their 90 health doesn't really help their survival.
Also, with Zerg's burrowed movement, it's incredibly annoying sometimes. Since some units move and others don't, once you burrow them, it's incredibly hard to read which units are what. Once I had hydralisks and roaches burrowed and I was screaming why the hell weren't they moving since 4 of them were grouped with my roaches.
Late game is pretty silly for Zerg. You get brood lords and it pretty much is GG for anyone. It's either GG or you get screwed since Zerg air is either all anti-air or all anti-ground. There isn't a middle ground (ie, mutalisks + guardian combo is gone, mutalisks + brood lord combo now requires 3 units instead of just building one)
All at the same time I'm just pumping my hatchers with my queen larva over and over and over and over.
What can be done to improve this problem?
I'd say speed up queen movement completely. Make all queen spells ranged. So for creep tumor she can just throw a creep tumor instead of having to lay it.
Re: Zerg, the most mundane race to play?
The queen I can kinda agree with (although I don't agree with spell range, that actually encourages creep spread, which I like), the abilities are definitely too situational. Creep tumor is kinda useless by Lair tech and I never use the heal.
But the rest of your complaints sounds like things that will either be balanced out or you're just miss-using units.
Re: Zerg, the most mundane race to play?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crazy_Jonny
The queen I can kinda agree with, the abilities are definitely too situational. Creep tumor is kinda useless by Lair tech and I never use the heal.
I think that the problem a lot of people have with queens is that they only think of them as the zerg macro mecanic. Sure they have spawn larva and they are used to improve your unit production, however that doesn't mean you must have one queen per hatchery and use it exclusively for SL and use the other spells only in certain situations.
Queens aren't really THAT expensive so it doesn't really hurt to get an extra one or two which do not only help with their spells but also serving as a little protection against harrasment given they can attack both ground and air.
Re: Zerg, the most mundane race to play?
I totally disagree, creep tumor is EXTREMELY important, since layering creep around the map makes your units move faster. Most top zergs will have half the map covered in creep by ovies and creep tumors.
The larva inject ability also is great, it makes it possible to still maintain decent production of units off 1 or 2 hatchs, giving zerg the ability to have a choice in weither you want to stay on fewer hatchs or get more.
The best part about queen is INSTANT base defence! I cant tell you how many times, esp in 2v2 where we were attacking and the opponent sneaks 6-10 zerglings in my base, only to be defended with ease by my queen + drones (and good building placement).. If the queen wasnt there, it would be GG.. Same with reapers to an extent (cant win, but can at least hold it off better than no queen) and other small harassing units. A queen is very useful in many situations as an extra attacker, not to mention how it is critical to the reproduction of a zerg army, so some people target it first, and with its high HP if you micro it, it can tank very well and may save you from a potentially game-ending situation.
Two queens hold off the pesky one void-ray base ownage too, until your anti air gets there.
Zerg takes more work than the other races when it comes to macro, because you need to keep your queens pumping, and creep up the map. That may be "mundane" to some people, but its very useful and I think once Marauders and thors are nerfed, zerg will still be the most potentially dangerous race when in the hands of a talented player.
Re: Zerg, the most mundane race to play?
I was a Zerg player in SC1.
But I physically CAN NOT play Zerg in SC2. The amount of attention needed to use Spawn Larva is simply beyond my multitasking capability as a micro player.
Re: Zerg, the most mundane race to play?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DemolitionSquid
I was a Zerg player in SC1.
But I physically CAN NOT play Zerg in SC2. The amount of attention needed to use Spawn Larva is simply beyond my multitasking capability as a micro player.
I think you'll find that most players agree that Zerg are the most macro-intensive race in SC1 :P.
Re: Zerg, the most mundane race to play?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DemolitionSquid
I was a Zerg player in SC1.
But I physically CAN NOT play Zerg in SC2. The amount of attention needed to use Spawn Larva is simply beyond my multitasking capability as a micro player.
Personally, I think that zerg is the easiest to macro o.o. Bind your queen to your hatchery on 4 or 5, seperately. Then, every ~20 seconds when you feel like it, hit 4, r and click on your hatchery icon. If nothing happens, just do it again later.
Obviously, when not in combat, you can easily hit all the timers. In combat, its ok if you miss a couple units. More importantly, zerg don't need to constantly expand infrasture as the game progresses beyond laying down hatcheries.
Playing random, I consistently lose as terran because while I can easily tab to my hotkeyed production facilities and hit A A A A or D D D D etc, I lack the macro to actually build more units in the mids of combat, as terran have the most to manage when building, from selecting unique SCVs, rallying them back to minerals when done, and accounting for add-ons. In the end, I suffer horrendously as the game progresses as I find myself not having scaled up production, and getting huge amounts of surplus as I build additional barracks later.
Protoss are okay because I can spam a bajillion gateways and quickly spend minerals with warp in.
Zerg are the easiest though. Squid, you don't need to hit every larva que exactly on time, I'm in upper gold and I frequently have gaps in spawning larva for almost a minute lol mid and lategame.
Practice makes perfect :P. Imho, if your a micro oriented player, zerg are by far your best choice. In the end, they still have comparatively easier macro tasks (if your having trouble with queens, I can't imagine your keeping all your nexus at 0 energy either).
For me, Zerg is kind of easy mode. Their the least reactive race, I rarely adapt my strategies playing them, simply switching emphasis from army to economy or viceversa depending on what I scout. If I can successfully predict my opponents attack timing, I literally never lose. The enemy is forced to attack zerg, never the other way around (unless they do something stupid like fast expand on maps like Kulas Ravine)
I think zerg is all about execution of a strategy (micro and macro components) rather then fluidly switching. I mean, objectively, all their matchups basically only have 2 overarching unit builds and 1 way to get to them for midgame.
They have to adapt to your standard strategy, while you rarely have to drastically adapt to theirs, at most making some roaches to kill hellions or some antiair for banshees. They have to alter their build specifically to disrupt your standard build, and your measure of success is determined by how much you can continue to adhere to it.
In a way, "Zerg win by default". The other races have to "catch up". This isn't to say that zerg are the most skillless, in the sense that staying ahead against a equally skilled opponent is just as hard as the act of trying to catch up, but on lower levels, if your opponent fails to try and adapt, to catch up, you simply win by default. If you FE and they don't harrass or secure a FE of their own, or lay down heavy defenses, they simply lose.
Whenever I start going below my desired winrate, I just switch to zerg lol. I could easily be in the upper echolons of plat if I played zerg exclusively. I feel like while at a higher level, the skill levels can be similar, actual knowledge players a greater role. Knowing how to react is crucial. Knowing when to time your pushes. Since knowledge scales differently from skill, having a less smoother learning curve, and capping early, as opposed to a fluid skill curve that has no definite cap, Zerg just feels extremely easy in comparison to the other two.
Its also the least stressful (so yeah, that can translate to mundane) imo. You're rarely in a situation where you need to dramatically alter your playstyle or you lose, and rarely in one where you can't determine if your going to win or not. I mean, standard zerg FE play, they have to do so much strategizing, whether planning a early expo, fast teching, econ harrassment, or rushing before the econ bonus sets in. Doing NOTHING simply does not work. They have to time their immortal pushes, they gotta time their 8rax rushes. You simply have to keep them in their standard playstyle, defend the pushes, stop the expos, predict the fast techs and prepare and you win.
I play random, and suck bad at PvP, TvP and TvT though, losing like 80% of the time in them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GRUNT
I think you'll find that most players agree that Zerg are the most macro-intensive race in SC1 :P.
I was under the impression zerg was the micro race in Sc1 o.o. Not trying to be too confrontational, but I'd really like to see a source for that, not to prove ZOMG UR WRONG, I just want to see that comfirmed as thats new information for me :)
Re: Zerg, the most mundane race to play?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
newcomplex
Whenever I start going below my desired winrate, I just switch to zerg lol. I could easily be in the upper echolons of plat if I played zerg exclusively.
Wow, I'd love to see some reps if you'd care to share them :p. As much as I love Zerg, it's not like I can win reliably :p.
EDIT: About the Zerg macro thing - this is just something I've heard throughout the years. One time, when talking to a gamer I just met, he asked me what race I played in SC, I said Zerg, he said: "oh, so you're a macro player, huh?" That's just one example. To say that I feel Zerg is a macro race through experience is too subjective, but I've heard that sentiment shared throughout the SC1 community, even by non-Zerg players :p. Frankly, it's too much trouble to dig up a ton of forum posts and other sources, so you're just going to have to decide if you want to take my word for it or not :p.
Moar editing! : I believe that Terrans are actually considered the micro race in SC1. This is because their army has so many processes it needs to go through - you need to siege your tanks, lay your mines, and stim your marines.
Re: Zerg, the most mundane race to play?
Quote:
The queen I can kinda agree with (although I don't agree with spell range, that actually encourages creep spread, which I like), the abilities are definitely too situational. Creep tumor is kinda useless by Lair tech and I never use the heal.
Huh, this is wrong. At least the part about Creep Tumors. They are extremely useful and important as Skyze said.
Many top players now started to build Creep Tumors all over the map because they give you vision of that part of the map for free, you don't have to send there Overlord, and Creep Tumors are invisible after all.
They also spread creep which is very important aspect of the Zerg race. 30% MS is a lot, the fastest units in SC2 are currently Zerglings on creep.
About the healing, yes it is situational, but so are many other abilities. With 2 Queens, you can successfully defend against M&M timing attack because you can heal your Spine Crawlers.
@Wankey
Terrans rarely use Supply Drop, and Scan is second only to Mules. In SC2 Terran scan only when they HAVE TO cause of energy for Mules, if they scan too much they will fall far behind other races, and Protoss doesn't actually have to chose anything since he can have energy to cast Time Warp on everything he need. He can still produce workers faster, upgrade faster and produce units faster from two buildings at the same time.
@Grunt
Well, a lot more players in SC1 were Macro than Micro players, because it was easier to Macro. Being an Zerg doesn't make you an Macro player. Mastering the Hydra dancing and dodging the storms, good Lurker burrowing, Defilers and finally, Mutalisk vs. Scourges, was very difficult and I would say they are considered as the hardest micro as you can get in SC1, and all units were from Zerg race so I don't think Zerg is necessary the macro race.
Re: Zerg, the most mundane race to play?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GRUNT
Wow, I'd love to see some reps if you'd care to share them :p. As much as I love Zerg, it's not like I can win reliably :p.
EDIT: About the Zerg macro thing - this is just something I've heard throughout the years. One time, when talking to a gamer I just met, he asked me what race I played in SC, I said Zerg, he said: "oh, so you're a macro player, huh?" That's just one example. To say that I feel Zerg is a macro race through experience is too subjective, but I've heard that sentiment shared throughout the SC1 community, even by non-Zerg players :p. Frankly, it's too much trouble to dig up a ton of forum posts and other sources, so you're just going to have to decide if you want to take my word for it or not :p.
Yeah, I can post my recent reps, I've had a pretty heavy losing streak as random due to consistently getting PvP and TvT (zomg so bad at them), so I switched to zerg. Got myself out of a 6 loss hole back to 5050 in 7 games as zerg.
Let me point how how the dynamic of Zerg, in my mediocre gold league perspective, works. I feel as I have a very innate advantage that comes out of a early expansion (really, as far as ladder goes, just 13/14 hatch every game, the few games you lose due to cheese become a statistic, a acceptable risk). THEY need to respond to this, because while I have an innate econ advantage, I have an innate tech and army disadvantage. Zerg however, can quickly muster up an army, and can transition tech the most easily.
Your measure of success is how effectively you can retain your strategy despite their adaptation. Their measure of success is how well they can adapt, and force you to adapt. (this excludes ZvZ obviously)
Heres a basic summation of the matchups.
In ZvT, the optimal build is going Zerglings/banelings after a early hatchery. Some people expand as early as 13, others wait until a safer 19. Its personal preference. Unless you want to run a riskier strategy (don't want to say cheese), to say, baneling bust if they're hardteching, this is what your going to adhere to every time.
They have several options. Doing nothing is not one of them. If they play "normally", you simply outecon them. If they go heavy marines, kill with banelings and mop with zergling and mutas. Tech to broodlords while expanding over half the map, containing them with heavy muta harass and banelings. I've never lost this MU if they don't adapt. You simply steamroll them.
This is the same with ZvP. They need to react. Without reacting, their is simply no way they can win.
They need to react. Its all about predicting how they react and defending accordingly. A hard early push with MM army is the prefered option. You need to outmicro them with zergling/banelings. If they don't send in heavy harrassment, assume a tech to banshees and react with AA or straighttech to mutas. If they're smart, they'll try and make you overinvest into zerglings/banelings and kill you with upgraded hellions. Predict and add in roaches. If they early expand, you need to either take it out with early zergling/baneling/roach push, or take a early 3rd expansion.
Your success is measured by how well you defended your additional expo. A flawless defense is a easy tech to mutas, containing them with banelings, and securing a rediculous econ advantage, or just winning. A flawed defense means they've successfully negated your advantage. They've delayed mutas to secure their own expo. Your going to have to match that. Or, likely, a extremely well timed push will simply end the game. If they time their MM push to catch you off guard, without at least 4-5 banelings, it can often be GG. If you've overinvested in zerglings, they'll wipe the floor with you using mass hellions, timed right before mutas come out. And if you've failed to tech fast enough, they'll get you with banshees.
Similar story versus P. They'll pressure you to over invest in roaches, undertech, and kill you with immortals/stalkers. An early 4 zealots can deny a expo outright. Mutas are subpar, roach/hydra is better, and your success is once again determined by how well you stick to your plan. Their going to try to time their pushes during weak spots. You need to fill in weak spots.
(As for ZvZ I just win all my games going a build outlined below at TL. Also its nice because it opens the same as my normal build so It doesn't even matter if I fight random lol
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=117763)
Perhaps react was a bad word choice. Zerg are the most reactive race. What you aren't is proactive. You will almost never need to stop THEM from doing something. They will be constantly try to stop you, all you need to do is react accordingly.
Here are some replays from recent games. I'm bad, and I just got back from a 4 day trip to Boston (sadly not PAX related :(), if you think you could benefit them. I think theirs one lost in their, I haven't played too much since the patch, and I thought he was just trying to catch me off guard with banshees. I wasn't expecting heavy investment, and their strength surprised me. I could have won easy with more hydralisks and less roaches.
Or if I had been less retarded and hadn't spend 20 seconds looking for where I put my overseer xD.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CPU6YGXS
(Hope I'm not too bad and I didn't waste your time with those replays...I'm hardly the kind of player who could be teaching other people through the sharing of replays lol)
That being said while I like what the Zerg macro mechanic does, I think its the most retarded. Why doesn't my queen just automatically cast it? lol. I'm not going to be casting it on anything other then a hatchery, and the confliction with creep tumors (you only need 1 :/) isn't enough to warrant disabling it :/
At the very least I think they should put transfusion and spawn larva into one spell, nerf it, and make it so it heals ~90 when cast on units or nonhatchery buildings.
A little bit back on topic, yeah, I really can see how Z are the most mundane race to play. They rely on adhering to their strategy and adapting it as they go other races are based around proactively deciding a strategy to play in order to counter yours. They need to be the actors, you are a reactor.
