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The Zerg Players thread
The ZERG thread
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9...zergkinph6.jpg
"Join me?"
The Zerg Threads Rules
- If you have a build order, please provide a replay of you doing it - or someone else doing it if you can - even if the person your fighting is worse than you that doesn't change your build order and execution.
- No help to the other races in this thread, use your proper thread for help if you want to defend a 7 pool
- No hating on someones build, you can explain WHY its bad or why it doesn't work but no flaming - and if you disagree with people saying its a good build provide a REPLAY of why you think it doesn't work.
- You can ask for help but don't get mad if you get the answers you dont want to hear, "Macro better" is sometimes just the answer your going to get and the correct one. Also on dont flame people for being bad at the game or worse than you, there are people better than everyone on this forum so lets all play nice and crush the other races together eh?
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That said im going to start things off with the opening that seems to be the hot stuff lately.
ZvT---
Baneling Bust
The purpose of this build is to destory the pitiful supply depot put up by those dirty terrans, almost everyone walls off with a supply depot while slowing building up forces or teching. This build takes advantage of the fact that terran cannot deal with lots of speedlings in a even fight, which is why they wall off specially at the start of the game.
Opening-
Start with your standard 13pool 15gas opening, make sure you make a overlord before your pool pops as well. With your first 100 gas get speed, and with your next 50 gas get baneling nest. Your spawned larva all become speedlings as well as every larva after the rush starts. Scout the target out with 2 lings to see what kinda wall he is going.
Note: If he dose not have a supply depot wall(instead opting for the new popular raxraxfactory wall) do not carry threw with this build, instead use your speedlings to get map control attack rocks and take a expand yourself and transition into a normal game.
If you see that hes building the standard wall then your good to go.
The Attack and transitioning after-
Right as your speed upgrade finshes you should have a decent amount of lings somewhere near his base, morph 4-5 banelings off to the side away from his sight range usally in some bushes your something. And basically slam them into his front door targeting one supply depot, it will explode even if one of your banelings die (they usually have like no forces at this time lol). Charge into his base and wreck havoc in his base and continue to rally lings. The game should end right here or at least you'll be very ahead. If by some insanity you fail to do damage with this build, then try to transition into a expo with speed banelings and speedlings to defend. Beware of fast tech banshees, this build dose get inside there base before he can get them though, but sometimes he'll get his baneshees out if this happens you can simply get a evo chamber while ure lair tech is upgrade and build 3 spore crawlers while hiding lings in some bushes, if he moves out go into his base again if he doesn't transition into a normal game ( with you being ahead since you did damage)
Replay
Build order~ Updated to be stronger by hammy
Feel free to post and discuss your builds and general problems and remember to post replays! I'll try to keep this updated and add more stuff if the thread catches on like hotkeys and other jazz
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
You know what's funny - ever since the Terran Players' thread, I've wanted to do a Zerg one, and the Baneling Bust was going to be my contributing build :p. It was one of the off-the-wall, but effective strategies a while back, but now it's really catching on :[.
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
I love you too grunt, you should post some replays of the build - I think it could become standard if you scout the supply walloff
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
Hey just a curious question, but how come no zerg players go for overpool build anymore or izit just me?
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Islandsnake
I love you too grunt, you should post some replays of the build - I think it could become standard if you scout the supply walloff
Here are two replays for you :p. All latest patch :].
My build's different though, I build a second Hatchery first. In fact, I go 14 Hatch. I was inspired by this Zerg player who posts on TL called Rrowland. He used to go 14 Hatch into Baneling Bust as well. I think that it tricks the Terran into pushing against you and keeps him at Tier 1 - perfect for defeating with Zerglings and then smashing Banelings on his door :p.
I also tried it against a Protoss player, and I'll put the rep here for amusement :p. I was 1 Baneling short of killing that Pylon, though, and that messed up my initial attack. However, this Protoss guy was a little too jittery of Roaches and built Immortals without even seeing a Roach Warren :p.
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SoFool
Hey just a curious question, but how come no zerg players go for overpool build anymore or izit just me?
The reason for this is, that you want your queen out as fast as you can, to spawn larva....
If you go for an overpool, your queen will be delata to much, and you would lag behind in the game...
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
I don't have a beta-key.. but following the game as much as i can... and im wondering if any zerg player ever go for an spare queen...
she could be use to spawn creep tumors, and that healing thingy she dose...
You could even get drop tech for your overlords, and get a queen inside one.. drop her of, spawn creep with the overlord and spawn a creep tumor... this could be done in your opponent base, or thier expos... this will hinder them building the expo, and at the same time give you a scout on him/her
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
Absolutely. I think in the optimal situation you should be building a queen if you aren't upgrading or doing research. It's only 150 minerals so it's not like there's some huge disadvantage to making another one. It doesn't take any larvae, and it's only 150 minerals. I think for the most part nobody ever thinks about it.
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SandyXX cam
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zexi
The reason for this is, that you want your queen out as fast as you can, to spawn larva....
If you go for an overpool, your queen will be delata to much, and you would lag behind in the game...
That makes no sense at all. Most zerg go for 14pool or 13pool right now (which means their queen is delayed more).
I think people just don't overpool much because of how zerglings have changed and get owned pretty badly by zealots. Versus terran, they almost all wall-in nowadays so being aggressive at that timing isn't such a good idea. On the other hand, delaying those three extra-drones probably isn't worth the faster queen (I've never tested this though, I'm just assuming...) That's how I see it at least.
I've got a question regarding openings though, in case anyone has tested this:
How does 9 overlord affect your timing, when compared to the 10 overlord, and assuming you're drilling to 13/14 drones before pool anyways. I haven't tested this precisely yet, but from my games it felt like doing this gave me an edge on the 13pool build (for ZvZ basically). When I 9overlord, I can get my 2nd overlord at 15 and it hatches as soon as my 8th larvae pops (on 18population= perfect timing). With a 10 overlord, I need to get my second overlord on 14 or I get supply blocked at 18.
Though I need to test this more to be sure, since maybe I was just messing up my 10 overlord build.
I'm mostly wondering how this affects my mineral income (spawning pool, queen and hatchery timings?) and especially how it affects these timings for the 14pool.
Has anyone tested this yet? I'll probably get to it some time soon, but I haven't had the time so far.
Edit: Btw, I was hoping the person who made this thread would format it and plan on editing the OP. I'm glad you did^^ Nothing worse than an outdated sticky! :p
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TWD
Absolutely. I think in the optimal situation you should be building a queen if you aren't upgrading or doing research. It's only 150 minerals so it's not like there's some huge disadvantage to making another one. It doesn't take any larvae, and it's only 150 minerals. I think for the most part nobody ever thinks about it.
I think a great time to make an extra queen is when you're being pressured (expecting a proxy gate/rax or something) or when you're at that point in ZvP where you don't want to tech just yet (because you would lose your ground advantage), but are still wondering if he might be going for a void-ray atack. Having two queens will save your base and then you can just send it over to your next expansion.
I don't think it's always a good idea though, since if you're macroing your spawn larvae you probably aren't using up all of larvae all the time anyways, and making that queen would delay your expansion a lot too...
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hammy
I think a great time to make an extra queen is when you're being pressured (expecting a proxy gate/rax or something) or when you're at that point in ZvP where you don't want to tech just yet (because you would lose your ground advantage), but are still wondering if he might be going for a void-ray atack. Having two queens will save your base and then you can just send it over to your next expansion.
I don't think it's always a good idea though, since if you're macroing your spawn larvae you probably aren't using up all of larvae all the time anyways, and making that queen would delay your expansion a lot too...
I was thinking on an spare queen... dosen't have to be before your expo... could be after that... but yeah... i can see your point in that...
and for the overpool, hmm; i think i misunderstood something or my brain was suplylocked; sorry for that!
thinking about it; going for an overpool, as Hammy said, = losing macro time, ofc i would help against a ruse or chees, so depending on your slow scout, going 13/14 pool where you got the money for it seems a bether way, but again it worked in SC1, so maybe an overpool with a fast banling for destroying the wall in (but look at the start to find a proply bether build)
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
9 Overlord and 10 ovy are kinda close, even if one is a bit better i think most people are fine with doing the 10 ovy. You could do a extractor trick while ure overlord builds if you want even more drones.
And I would'nt recommend building more queens for defense, In almost all cases you want at most 1 queen per hatch, and you shouldn't need to make another queen to hold off a rush - as your build should be constructed as such so its not required.
So anyone got anymore builds they want to post? I might post another one today with some hotkey setups.
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
I was sort of hinting at your build actually : ) Any new build will need some tweaking, so here is my suggestion to optimize the one you already posted:
9 Overlord
13 Pool
14 Gas - Put 3 drones on when finshed and leave them there
15 Overlord
15 Drone
16 Queen - Spawn larva asap even if your getting rushed.
18/26 - Food Check :d (overlord pops exactly as your pool finishes)
18 Ling (to repell worker if he's still around, and various scouting purposes)
19 Drone
20/26 - Upgrade Speed
20 Drone
21 Overlord
21 - Baneling Nest
21 Drone
22 - Spawn Larva pops - Make All Zerglings and continue from there morphing banelings when your ready to attack => The attack should initiate as soon as speed is done and your blings are morphed. You should try to sync those 2 near his base (not right in front of it, since keeping this hidden will increase it's potency).
Basically buys you an extra drone which will help you a lot with your follow up (likely an expansion or 2nd gas for quick hydra followup). At plat, banelings busts aren't really enough. You can damage him a severly but you need a followup.
Regarding the 2nd queen: It's really situationnal. I mean look at TLO vs WhiteRa game 2 of the TLI. Those 2 queens were used to great effect (and I'm not even talking about the fact that the queen ended up razing the P's base).
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
Hmm that looks good i'll add it to the OP.
Yeah that game was a example of a time when 2 queens would be necessary, though still Im not behind getting a 2nd queen without a 2nd hatchery unless its that exactly situation haha.
Speaking of the tournament yesterday I really liked when ret spread the creep before attacking on desert oasis, very cool stuff.
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
One thing I'm not sure about is if it is a good idea or GREAT idea to build an overlord at 9 instead of 10.
Anyway, My BOs are as follows:
7-pool suck out
This strategy puts you all in.
5 drone
6 drone
7 pool
Build another drone. Build an overlord to have hope of transitioning out of 7-pool.
Build drones while waiting for pool to complete. Save 3 larvae.
You ought to have 150 min at least to build 6 lings. I believe when I would do this, I have 300, enough to build 6 lings and a queen.
Send the lings and either you win or you lose. It may or may not be a good idea to bring drones with while pumping lings.
(Un)fortunately, the way to beat this strat is to block your ramp. This becomes difficult on maps like scrap station where the ramp is larger than normal.
The reason for doing 7-pool over 6-pool or 8-pool is to get a decent economy going with the intention to transition to something other than lings. 6 pool can and likely will hamstring your economy while 8-pool may result in lings being delayed.
My Standard BO:
9 Overlord
10 Send a drone to scout. You can usually catch terran players building there wall and delaying it a little bit by harassing the SCV on construction
13 Pool
14 Gas (If you'd like to build something other than fail-lings, gas can be delayed to 15 however.)
15 Hatch.
16 Queen
From here I can either go speedlings or roaches versus protoss and zerg.
How do you guys feel about early hatcheries at expos? I feel like I end up needing to do it because even with a queen always spawning larvae I end up with enough minerals to make it worthwhile to expand.
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
I usually go mass roaches vs everybody,today i tried fast lair with hydra den and infestaion pit,This build turn out greatly....I can't really tell the exact build cuz pretty much depends on you...but expansion with 2-3 spine crawlers around 18/19 are essential for the gas ....
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
Personally I prefer 8pool over 7 pool.
Drone
Pool
Drone
Overlord
x3 lings.
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Anyway though, 15 hatch 14 pool or the more safer 15pool 14 hatch is a quite safe build most of the time (cept for zvz)
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Islandsnake
Anyway though, 15 hatch 14 pool or the more safer 15pool 14 hatch is a quite safe build most of the time (cept for zvz)
To be more specific, the 8 pool can have your pool up by 2:05. The 13 pool gets it by 3:00. The 13 pool won't be able to repel the attack. A 10 pool will get the Zerglings in the base just after the 13 pool Queen comes up on Lost Temple.
Also you almost always need to build those 6 zerglings and Queen asap. I almost always 10 pool, and I love it when I come against a 13 pool that delays the Zerglings in favor of drones. It doesn't kill them, but I can take out their Queen. If I can do that I'll have a 12 larvae advantage, and a free pass to early expand.
You may have noticed that I really like to post times. I'd really like to know what the timings are for some of these builds. I'm particularly interested in what units you have by the 4:00 mark.
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TeenageDreams
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
But doesn't it take a huge mis-micro to be able to take out the opponent's queen? With good OL positionning he'll see you comming and pump out at least 2 lings, and put his queen in the middle of his mineral field. You would have to take out more than 3 drones to make it viable (taking out only 3 would still be advantageous for the opponent), and that's not likely to happen.
I haven't tried 10pooling in ZvZ though, but i've had it happen to me and I didn't feel like I was in such danger. However, I've been 6-7-8 (dunno which one it was)pooled, and got owned because I got greedy. I sorta liked that, it's better than roach vs roach most of the time. Getting owned by cheese is a great wake-up call.
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
I don't know, it's never happened before. I would think that 6ling could still take out a Queen and 2ling under the right circumstances. If the drones got involved it would be a different story. The key thing as the 10 pool player is to justify their cost. You'll be even if you take out the queen or 3 drones. If you walk into the base and find that you can't do that then just run away.
However, the point that I'm trying to make is simply that if they 8 pool you'll lose. If they 10 pool they still have some good options for you. Hence why 13 pool vs Zerg on small maps?
Also if you are scouting long enough to see the Zerglings move out, you better move that overlord. In 15 seconds a Queen is going to spawn.
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LIVE SEX
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
People need to use the Extractor trick more. It really lets you have a smoother build order, without having to stop at 9 to make your Overlord so that you don't block on 3 Larva.
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
I was typing a long text asking whether this had been tested and reminding people that cancelling an extractor doesn't cost 6 minerals: it effectively costs 10 minerals, since minerals are spent and returned in increments of 5 (until you cancel another building, which isn't going to happen in the early game).
Here is the test I conducted:
I played three games, using three different build order "tactics". To standardize the test, I never split my drones at the beginning. I just clicked on the nearest mineral patch and let them do their work (this test is about comparing builds amongst each other, which requires as much normalization as possible).
Also, the general build older was always:
-13 pool
-14 extractor
-16 queen
-18 zergling (just the one, since it's standard to chase the enemy worker if you want to expand, or just to scout)
-Speed at exactly 100 gas
-21 drone (check the time at which I made my last drone before queen is done)
Perhaps the 13pool is a bad choice, and we might test this in our next installement, but this isn't the issue here (though I love this build).
To get an idea of which BO "tactic" is best, I used the "build order" tab when a game ends, and wrote down the timings for the spawning pool, the queen, the zergling, zergling speed (which means 100 gas) and 21st drone (last unit built before queen pops). Many of these timings are redundant, but I took all of them to weed out human mistakes.
Results:
Well the timings are all the same (no this isn't rigged, I'm really suprised by how close these number are). I don't think a 1s difference is a relevant result since we're talking about fractions of seconds here. I was spamming with hotkey and mouse click to try to make the results accurate, but there's still AI and human response to take into consideration :).
Conclusions:
=> The three builds are identical! Do whichever you like. You should note that the extractor trick makes you lose 2x "drone returning minerals", and that in this test I got lucky:
My drone started building the extractor and my 10th(11th) drone started morphing at exactly 75minerals. Also, when I canceled the extractor, the closest mineral patch was cleared to avoid losing time in mining. I think I executed this well (doesn't always happen like this), but it's easy to get an extractor trick a few seconds off when massing games (which means this isn't my prefered choice).
=> Based on what I've got here, just like in SC:BW, your larvae production doesn't seem to stop at 3 larvae. Of course the 4th larvae won't pop, but the respawn cooldown will begin. Perhaps there's a minimum respawn time, but in the 10overlord build, that minimum respawn time (if it exists) doesn't apply. Basically, when using a 10 overlord build, you're not wasting larvae spawn time, since none of my prior units were delayed.
Too long:didn't read:
9 overlord = 10 overlord = 10 overlord w/ extractor trick
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
That's bizarre. Thanks for the tests Hammy!
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
what about double extractor trick?
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
I'm so proud of myself today. I've been on a losing streak during Practice League and Placement Matches. I was complaining that I wasn't learning anything at all and that I should just quit. And then my last Placement match. It was against a Zerg player who was also favoured. I seriously thought I was going to lose but decided to give it one last try. I opened up with a late (10 pool?) pool. Made two pairs of zerglings. Things kept going until I got hydras. Luckily for me, I had been collecting gas from both geysers the entire time. So I basically massed hydralisks and kept sending them wave after wave at this guy. I made sure to get the range upgrade and Carapace and Missile Attacks Upgrade 1. He managed to expand to two bases and I still took him down. Man, was I surprised! Pleasantly of course but still surprised.
TLDR version: I won as Zerg against a Zerg player who was favoured despite the fact that I was losing in the beginning.
I'll post the replay in a bit but for now it's time to take on the copper league! I may not be the greatest player but at least I've proven that there is some hope for me. :p
I'm also looking for anyone who is good with Zerg to help coach me every now and then. I would really appreciate it. :)
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hammy
To get an idea of which BO "tactic" is best, I used the "build order" tab when a game ends, and wrote down the timings for the spawning pool, the queen, the zergling, zergling speed (which means 100 gas) and 21st drone (last unit built before queen pops). Many of these timings are redundant, but I took all of them to weed out human mistakes.
I agree with your results. For early game Zerg the biggest bottleneck is larvae. None of these tricks speeds up the number of larvae that you get, and hence the time you get subsequent things ends up being the same.
However, there could be a small mineral difference in the 3 builds. I'm not sure if that difference would be within the margin of error or not. Either way I doubt it would be a big enough difference to justify the hassle.
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WIKI VAPORIZER
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
Sarov you know you can count on my for coaching just ask ;d
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Islandsnake
Sarov you know you can count on my for coaching just ask ;d
When I tried to send you a message, it said that you had the maximum number of chat windows open. >=(
@ the Extractor trick issue - I noticed that even in the Teamliquid Invitational, the Zergs don't really do the Extractor trick. If it's not used at such a good level of play, then it can't be that beneficial. Like Hammy's tests seem to indicate, I'm pretty sure that it all works out about the same :p.
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GRUNT
When I tried to send you a message, it said that you had the maximum number of chat windows open. >=(
Might be because I'm always talking to him when he's on and he's usually talking to me - among other people of course. :p
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
Woah you can have max windows open LOL bnet needs some serious improvements.
Try again grunt, you should add ure name to the thread!
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Todie
what about double extractor trick?
I couldn't imagine that being useful. You'd need to save up 150minerals, and double cancelling extractors would cost you 15minerals (12). You'd be losing mining time from two drones to gain certainly less that 1x"back and forth" from the neo-spawned drones (it's not like overlords take ten years to spawn :p). Someone could test it, but it looks like a really bad build to me.
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TWD
I agree with your results. For early game Zerg the biggest bottleneck is larvae. None of these tricks speeds up the number of larvae that you get, and hence the time you get subsequent things ends up being the same.
However, there could be a small mineral difference in the 3 builds. I'm not sure if that difference would be within the margin of error or not. Either way I doubt it would be a big enough difference to justify the hassle.
Well unless I screwed up badly, or the AI messed up in mining, it doesn't look like there's a mineral difference (since I always reached 200 minerals at the exact same time, +/- 1second). Also, about 4-5 seconds after the queen spawned, I reach 300minerals, regardless of the build.
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
So lately what I've been experimenting with in my 2v2 games is an FE -> triple queen build.
Basically I go:
9OL
13hatch
12pool
12extractor
16Queen
Then I get lings for a while, and when my Queen pops I drop a creep tumor. Where I drop this depends on the map. I've only had a chance to test this on Metalopolis and Lost Temple so far, so I don't have much of the placement on other maps worked out yet. I then build a pair or trio of spine crawlers -- a pair on LT, on the overlook at my natural, trio on Metal just outside my natural expo. I find a trio of spine crawlers is exponentially more powerful than a pair, so I might make a trio on LT too from now on. Put one down on the ground in front of the overlook maybe.
Then I get whatever units I want/need to get and get 2 queens from my natural hatchery. It works out really well, and having those three queens is a big help for defense. It also gives me a lot of spare energy to cast creep tumor and transfusion. Both of which are really useful. (Oh, and with three queens they can heal eachother. Which can extend their life dramatically.)
I'm trying to work on a fast hydralisk build as well.
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
Hehe, nice to see you took my conversations regarding multi-queens to heart. *chuckles* It'll be interesting to see how it goes.
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gifted
Hehe, nice to see you took my conversations regarding multi-queens to heart. *chuckles* It'll be interesting to see how it goes.
Well, it's like this. For the last year some people have been complaining that no matter how much tension there is between queen abilities, it won't matter because you can just make extra queens in order to cast those spells.
At the same time, some people have been complaining that transfusion is useless. For my part, it's always been that my queen is never at the ready, and never seems to have enough energy.
...so I just... put two and two together. Finally. Pretty simple really.
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
I'm only in the Gold League, but so far I've been going overlord at 10, 13 fast expo, 12 pool, then hold off or harass with zerglings while you tech up.
Against Protoss I go zerglings/mutas (+corruptors if they're going air) or ling/hydra
Against Zerg it's a lot like SC1, lings and mutas, I find lings can hold their own against roaches early on.
Against Terran I go lings/banelings early and then continue to get those while adding hydras and infestors into the mix. Banelings are the only way I can successfully hold off the early M&M push.
Obviously ultralisks late game in any match up.
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
Quote:
then hold off or harass with zerglings while you tech up.
This is the part I don't see happening. Certainly not vs. Protoss; a decent Zealot+Immortal/Sentry push should be enough to end you well before you see Mutalisks or Hydralisks. Unless the walking distance is huge, like on Desert Oasis, there's no way you can hold after a fast expo and a late pool like that.
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
Like I said, only gold league but it's been working for me.
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
Yeah, usually works for me too. But I haven't had to deal with too much early zealot aggression so far.
Zealots are certainly no trouble when you have queens backing up your zerglings. And I think I can probably get a hydra before too many immortals come. I'll certainly have a lot of extra lings with the expo.
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Re: The Zerg Players thread
Lets talk about ZvZ for a bit.. roach builds in one form or another have been standard so far in beta, but after playing more than usual last night, reading Nicol's comment on the subject - quoted below - and me previously getting run over by mass lings on occasion, im changing my view on the MU entirely. for the better!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nicol Bolas
[About "fixing" ZvZ]There's nothing to fix. There's already a strong debate between people who believe that Roaches dominate the match and a small but vocal minority who think that mass Zerglings with early attack upgrades own Roaches. Now we have this huge buff to the Spine Crawler's damage output; this rewards 1-base turtling, as well as extra Queen play (to move the creep and keep Crawlers alive.
One-base Nydus into someone's main and flood them with +1 Zerglings is potentially a legitimate strategy now. To stop this, simple Roaches won't do; you need to do a Baneling-bust, ZvT style.
ZvZ is ever-so-slowly starting to open up.
the zergling mobility advantage over roaches is really huge. especially when lings get their speed upp, while roches dont, 'till tier2..
with an early evo-chamber, you can get those lings to +1 attack before most enemies even reach tier2... and by leaning on sporecrawlers for reinforced defence, an enemy using a roach build can be kept on his toes by the sheer ability of lings to bypass them and inflict econ-damage.
the more i think about this, the more i realize there is significant depth to be explored; Nicol also mentioned buffed crawlers means a greater ability to hold an early expand without using roaches.. this is probably true, but i havnt tried yet; where im at it feels safer to use those improved crawlers to just hold the choke - its especially safe with an early queen (in this game i pulled a 11 pool.. convenient, given my opponents apparent 9 pool rushing-attempt)
banelings adds an additional layer; they share upgrades with zerglings, and really synergize with them superbly - as you may be familiar with from use vs terran infantry-balls: enemies of Zerglings like to bunch up and use chokepoints - to limit the zerglings ability to get at them all at once, enemies of Banelings like to spread out in order to minimize splash... also, what with the upgrades affecting them and the recent buff of bane's base damage, they i can even see them being not-useless against Roaches; if you hit about 6 of them with an explosion, it breaks about even for cost (you get 1 ling & 1 bane for the cost of 1 roach)
obviously, banelings are a rock-hard counters to zerglings also, so if an enemy gets that, it might end up an all-in chaotic microfest from hell on a whole other level than roach vs roach - or it might just fall back to roach vs roach, as iv seen in some high-end replay.
disregarding that for a minute: what does this mean for tier2 play? ... as we have seen, Hydras make good sense as support units for roaches, for ling/ling however, mutas aught to make more sense; you will have some more gas leftover (depending on how much banes you get etc) and ling/bane have a greater chance to pull off a flank & be even more devastating when they manage to do so, than roahces are - hence giving mutas free reign...
that last part is purely speculative: there's much to speak against lings the further the game goes: probability of ranged-grade for roach-2shotting-lings, enemy banes (with speed?) and infestors for all but killing every zergling in FG AoE to name a few.. this is why - if significant changes arnt made - roach will probably remain standard in zerg mirror - having said that, implementing the zergling counters are not likely to remain as simple as "mass more roach" - as they have arguably been in early beta... someone who is great at using banelings and/or infestors to their fullest should have a significant advantage vs zergling users, but i dare say, that wont be everyone - maybe not even among high platinum ranks..
speculation aside, i think ill set out to explore these possibilities; though counters to lings are many in theory, just maybe some reactive play, proper scouting and some selective muta-micro can keep things interesting: if my mutas pick off most of your infestors 'n banes while you are asserting map-control, your roach / hydra army is in deep shit; easily cut off & outmanoeuvred with insufficient unit counters...
.. the parts about the mutas, i kind fo realized while / after playing - my hydras were pretty much just a precaution: unless you are in fear of loosing map-ctrl to earlier mutas or superior muta-numbers - which you shouldnt since youre spending less gas on ground troops - theres really no reason not to go muta, esp for reasons mentioned.
game-specific comments may be posted in my replay thread instead, as to not derail this thread with too much specifics, if thats an issue to anyone (ill probably link it there soon anyway, along with some other randomness)
thank you for your attention. i bid you good day.
