for any protoss wanting a nice semi-cheese but safe build vs terran.. heres me doing it vs a 1600 diamond terran who rages afterwards..
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft...load&id=151746
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for any protoss wanting a nice semi-cheese but safe build vs terran.. heres me doing it vs a 1600 diamond terran who rages afterwards..
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft...load&id=151746
I have been thinking more and more, are archons underused? Well high templars is prefered, but when they got 0 energy after getting an emp. You warp in 2-3 templars to do the storm and archons + over 9000 zealots attack.
(late late game both having 4 expos)
That's awesome, lol. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Skyze
Why didn't he shoot at the VRs? That sounds like a good idea :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Skyze
tired of protoss... =(
I usually only get to the 2-3 base long games but I find they are extremely good especilly when hts have stormed already because they work as a very nice tank and can take 3 emps(they waste ghost energy big time!) and still live, plus the splash damage on them is so good that it will just deplete bio in seconds, personally im a fan of hts and I always end up getting arcon out of them...no point in having them have to get 50-75 energy to become useful again when in 14 seconds they will be useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilice
12 seconds :D Not 14, but great point you make there! :D
lol opps my bad XD I knew it was like 12-14 so I went with 14 XD either way its still very effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by protoswarrior
There's something seriously wrong with my PvP. I go from having a decent early game lead into randomly losing. Thoughts?
AHHHHH, cannot truly win against zerg. I freakin 8 gate and i still dont have zealots out in time for the rush. What the hell am i doing wrong?
Gradius:
From what I see in the first replay he surprised you with the immortals. A strategy I like myself since everyone likes to go mass stalkers in PvP. When he pushed with the one stalker and the one immortal you should have trapped the immortal on the ramp as well. You had the zealots to handle it. If he started attacking your stalkers then you could easily pull them back. After that it slowly went towards mass stalkers on both sides. So basically the side with more stalkers or immortals has an edge. Personally, if i see a large stalker immortal army i go chargelots, sentries and immortals. The opponent can focus down your immortal but by then the zealots rip through him or he can focus down zealots but by then the immortal ripped through them. Forcefield blocks his retreat. That's just one option to deal with that particular opponent in the replay of course. Basically I didn't like your unit mix vs his unit mix. He slowly edged ahead in stalker count then it went downhill from there.
In the second replay at around the 2:53 mark you had your gateway up 25 game seconds before his gateway finished. But you didn't make a zealot. He went for a late gateway but you didn't punish him for it. If you went zealot, chronoboost it and moved it out you could have gone straight to mineral line and killed 2-3 probes or force all his probes to stop mining to deal with your first zealot. Then same with the first replay with him edgeing ahead in stalker count. I liked your opponent's unit mix better. He went for the usual stalker immortal. Then he saw you were going the same. So he got more zealots and a colossus if you went zealots too. Then when you engaged he just had more zealots than you by a lot. You were forced to deal with them while his stalkers just shot at your stalkers easily.
I won't tell you to abandon your whole 2 gate, core build. But sort of rethink your unit mix in PvP against a stalker, immortal opponent.
Depends what you are talking about. 6 pool rush?? Early push when he has lots of zerglings??? Roach rush??? If you really have a bad time just wall off with forge then gateway, make cannons. Or pylon, gateway, core leaving space for one zealot in a gap. If you can watch your map well, sentries do better at stopping rushes than zealots. Quick forcefield. But if it's an early rush then ya use those wall off options. After that tech to something. High templars do well. Can deal with ground army and mutalisks. Out of energy then morph into archon which also does quite well against ground army or mutalisks. Oh and if you go 8 gates on one base then that's the problem. You use up minerals making production buildings you can't support yet. Crota made a nice video tutorial about minerals and how many production buildings you need to use up all your minerals (if they are fully saturated).Quote:
Originally Posted by Corgon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKZBUJIJvAA
He also did a bit about gas. Basically it was down to 800 minerals and 200 gas per game minute for fully saturated base (if i remember right). So something like 2-3 gate, 1 robo or 4 gate can use up all your resources if you keep producing units.
Game 1 looks like a lot of it came down to him having slightly better unit control. You lost a lot of stalkers trying to kill the immortals, when a lot of the time they werent even really a threat. Remember, immortals only have a range of 5, so if they are behind their stalkers they wont be able to hit you unless they micro the stalkers forward which gives you free hits on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Also, I am not sure if you do this, but make sure your own immortals are always targeting stalkers and not sentries or zealots (or even other immortals).
Also, about the force field placement (on blistering in particular), you should be quick but dont be so quick that you sacrifice placing a better force field. There were a couple of times that you couldve used it to trap some of his units but didnt. Be sure to use your choke to your advantage too, so dont fight in it yourself. If he pulls back, then let him. You have your expansion up first and have a slight defenders advantage. Use that advantage and if he ever backs off then tech the rest of the way to colossus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackhammerIV
I meant 8 gate build, like 8 probes and then build a gateway. ^^ But anyway thanks for the help, I will try the cannon thing, but I don't think that I'll get sentries out in time for that initial 6 pool rush.
Ah ok. Then 8 gate, pylon, core wall in if you're really worried about a 6 pool rush. keep your zealot on hold position in the gap. Chronoboost a ranged unit when core is done if he pressures ur buildings. Don't charge your zealot to the lings unless there's another zealot to take the place of the one blocking the gap. The canon thing is best used on a place like blistering sands or desert oasis or scrap station. Block off the low ground choke so you can take your natural easier. But be careful of your back door. And you better macro like mad. Expo fast. Tons of probes. Observer him to be sure wat he is teching to and where he has expanded. He might just take advantage of the fact you are walled off to just expand like crazy and beat you in the macro game. Be careful of drops and mutalisks if you wall in with forge and cannons.
The first game was just a case of map control winning over army or economy. He had a probe at the southern watch tower that was able to spot the first incoming 2 stalkers, and that probe was there the entire game. The turning point of the game was when you pushed through the center with your stalkers way out in front and your immortals/zealot/sentry mass was lagging behind. He was able to see how far your stalker army was ahead of the rest of them and and was able to snipe a few units out of your bigger army while your army was split up. If you and your opponent seem to have basically the same macro ability, which it seemed was the case this game, the control of your units is how you need to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Honestly, I think the reason you lost the second game was because of you going for the gold expansion. I assume you went for the gold because of that edge to your natural expansion that the opponent can exploit, but even if that one side is open to attack, it is closer to your main and easier to travel back and forth to protect both. Imagine if you had your army at the gold and they did a drop in your main. Anytime you go for a gold expansion its riskier, but in that particular game the risk was not worth it at all. Also, the other player had 1 attack and 1 armor upgrade and that did not help your cause as well.
I did a very quick little test on Steppes of War to see if I could get a zealot from an 8gate out before the time of a 6pool zerglings would get there and found out that the zealot would pop out a split second before the zerglings reached the ramp. They both happened at about 2:45 game time. Make 100% sure that your build order is as smooth as possible. I was able to get a zealot out that fast because I threw the pylon asap at 8 supply, made the gate asap, made the zealot asap and chronoboosted it and was constantly making probes the entire time after the gateway was thrown down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Corgon
Even though it is very possible to get a zealot out before the 6pool hits you, that is not the way you beat the 6pool or how the 6pool beats you. It is never the first 6 zerglings that kill you off, it is the others. So, do your normal build and wall off with a pylon and gateway at the ramp and put a zealot on hold position as soon as it finishes making. Let those first 6 zerglings through and kill them with your probes. I was able to have 14 probes ready(with the 8pylon 8 gateway build) by the time that the 6 zerglings got into my base. At higher levels people will be able to properly control those zerglings so they wont die to the probes since they are faster but you never have to worry about it below at least platinum. So just attack move into the zerglings, lose a few probes, and you will still be in the economical lead. The 6pool causes people to lose because they get flustered and freak out. Just stay calm, keep your wall blocked off with a zealot and you will be fine.
Looks like we got nerfed again boys :( this time it aint just 5 seconds a zlots, Its voids att/flux speed, we now cant feedback corrupter or thors, stalkers cant fungel blink away anoymore...only thing useful we got was some hp and they finally fixxed the gravity glitch with pynix!
Good thing too, the phoenix glitch was annoying. But seriously, Protoss are getting slaughtered with these patchs. We can still feedback, but it will be hard to determine the amount of damage, and whether fb or storm will be better.
Also, anyone know a good counter to rauder late game, cuz with voids sucking totally now, and ghosts just raping my ht, idk what to do...
NO i mean u cant feedback thors or corrupters they have no energy now! man I loved to see a massthor army and be like FEEDBACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and totally destory it! then add a few storms just to seal the deal :D Also a good counter is arcons if the storms from HT fails just make arcons also colossus can work but meh personally they die to vikings and late game they usually have vikings.Quote:
Originally Posted by McLovin
should make feedback cooldown =D
Might as well say should make psionic storms cooldown.:P
I usually go for
9Pylon
11Gateway
12assimilator
14Cybernetics Core
16WarpGate
17Gateway
18Gateway
19Gateway
20Robotics Bay
21- Push it works pretty good against terrans, especially on blistering sands. but sometimes if I face zerg around 13-14 I will throw up a forge just for extra protection against roach//ling rushes
Omg, seriously zerg are getting a lil too good. Roachs just rape my shit now, I find that i lose a lot to roach ling muta.
Those early roach pushs are also deadly now with the 4 range increase :(, anyone got an idea of how i can combat this?
So I'm trying out Protoss for a change, and decide to drop a few HT's at a Zerg expansion - As the Hatchery comes into view, I see 7 larvae just sitting there doing nothing. Out of curiousity, I decide to Psi Storm the lot of them - and to my surprise, all 7 instantly explode.
Has this always been the case, or is this a patch thing?
negative, larvaes have low health and high armor. Psi-Storm and other spells are considered spell damage and thus are armor piercing. Other Armor Piercing spells include:Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliban113
Yamato Cannon
Feedback
Snipe
250 mm Cannon
Fungal Growth
Hunter Seeker Missile
Interesting. Prolly worth storming/sniping/FG'ing some larvae from time to time. :)
fyi Fungal growth cannot killing blow, but I just added Hunter Seeker to the listQuote:
Originally Posted by Caliban113
http://blizzforums.com/showthread.php?t=29314
i advise to review this thread, there are few my own replays on how to use phoenixes properly against Zerg, Amok doubts their superiority
here are few two replays on how to kill the early zerg exp
I call it forge push
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also in PvP 4 Gateways Zealot rush is deadly
Attachment 1578
, same as 8 Gateways in 2vs2
me with random diamond vs one diamond and one platinum not random
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skip to Void Rays or make few canonns near the choke with Zealots guarding itQuote:
Originally Posted by McLovin
do not allow Zerg to expand those first replays show how you should block their approach, oh and I use that almost against every Zerg with some variations, but first you need to make sure he is expanding, still you can make use of that can block as he won't attack you with his force, meanwhile expand scout if he doesn't have Nydus Worms if he does get all your main forces to either your natural, usually you can see nydus trying to pop out in your base
I hate cheese builds like that, I prefer to just beat them in macro. I think that it just might be impossible to beat a protoss with 3 bases.Quote:
Originally Posted by spychi
So, what I do if I see zerg go for FE... FE myself. You can generally 1 gate FE into 4 warpgates pretty safely against zerg (and terran that dont go for an early marine push). When you get colossus/HT out (I prefer HT) then take your third and macro hard.
I wouldn't really call that cheesy IMO. Cheesy would be if he threw down his first pylon near his opponents expo and tried to cannon rush. This is really no different then pylon blocking a zerg ramp and throwing a single cannon 2 spaces behind the pylons. Both just deny the early expand and force the zerg to commit to more units and/or spine crawlers. Its just a way to prevent zerg from power droning early in the game. Same concept as 2 gating, but with a slower tech path, but with higher defense and potential econ boon.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer
Seems to me that the buff to roach range kinda makes pylon blocking a zerg ramp rather pointless. 3/4 of all zerg now a days use roaches anyway, so throwing down a single roach early to pick off the pylons from range 4 without cannon reprisal is no great shakes.
I think spychi's little alteration on the idea is kinda nice. It allows a toss to put pressure on the zerg and potentially shut down the fast expo, even in cross map situations like in kulas and met. Those kind of distances make 2 gating rather fruitless. Plus it easily transitions into many different things. Since he's contained, you can FE if you want. You can tech with relatively little fear. And it also leads into a very nice, if not slightly delayed 4 gate build, if you cut the stargate. If your opponent ignores the cannon long enough and tries to tech to muta or roach/hydra on one base before pushing out, you can really hurt them with this transition. You can warp in loads of units AND if you get pushed back, just back up a bit and now you have 2+ cannons that will aid your units to keep the contain. In addition to that, since you have a very fast forge, you will likely already have your +1 attack up, or even your 1/1 ups by the time you hit warpgate tech. Its a really nice strat and gives a very solid push while maintaining map control.
I'm experimenting around with it myself, works well so far... but I still need to refine it some...
happy to hear someone likes the build, the moment I see his fast exp is the moment after 2nd pylon I make a forge (so it's not really cheese -I hate cheese- I just adapt with the right counter for it), I wait for the Zealot to come out of the gate and then I put a pylon near his hatchery (because I always have timed scout after 1st pylon I can easily find his main on a 2vs2 map), if he doesn't make a fast exp I go for 2nd gate and 2 gas
Vs Zerg, you can also:
1. Delay FE, or delay Nat.
2. 3 Zeal attack at 4:30 up to 7, while teching to VRs.
3. VR harass, defend or kill, or deny tech/force hydra.
4. move in with 6 gate stalker/sentry/chargelots at 10:00.
What do you guys think about a phoenix harras and then tech to carriers? (zealots are used, and then tech to high templar aswell)
*Skipping robo bay completely.
I only made Carriers twice, just to humiliate my opponentQuote:
Originally Posted by Twilice
I only made it once, worked much better then expected. But none of our gameplays where flawless, but working from a 2 base with charged zealots, high templar and carrier. And I didn't really mass carriers, well I had about 2 all the time. And 4 at some parts. I forced him to get hydras (he went mass roach), since corruptors would have taken to long time. And then I got chargelots and storm to kill the hydras. Very situational maybe, but could there have been a better build?
Phoenix harass vs Zerg, as Zerg is the most annoying thing that could happen to you for the following:
1. 2 phoenixes must force an ovie speed upgrade or clumped ovies.
2. Wards off overseers, forcing more.
3. Kites mutas like crazy.
4. Forces muta or hydra and penalizes no creep spread.
As for #3, the downside is if the toss gets attacked in his base. Without proper support to ward off impeding massed mutas, or have not microed/macroed at 500 apm, then toss is forced to face mutas head on, getting slight hits here and there.
There is no way toss can get more phoenixes than Zerg in a straight up BO contest. The inherent weakness of a phoenix based opening or midgame falls in the fact of having less ground troops to defend, and it requires a lot of apm to pull off and create devastating effects.
This taken from what I've been thrown at from toss. Macro/micro hurts my opp more than the strat given them. In a more practiced player though, it can be very deadly I suspect.
It sounds a bit gas heavy for 2 base play, but I do think that carriers are better than people give them credit for. I tend to think that burrow move roaches would wreck this build a bit tho, the carriers would have some reign but with the roaches protecting from the zealts and storm not being great against them, they would then have time to get spire and corrupters. But still, its an idea, so dont give it up if you think it might work. Gl with the build.
Well, actually I thought so to. "carriers cost a whopping 250 gas, they must be extremely gas heavy". But duo to their interceptors and the zealots as meat shields (and dps) I actually needed more minerals, that is why I went for high templar. It was a bit suprising for me, but it wasn't really that gas intense and I could easily get charge for zealots.
And what GnaReffotsirk with the counter attacking was true, he did try to counter attack. But carriers had 8 range, so I just attacked and retreated like you do with a colossus. Sure they moved slower so he got one or two, but at the cost of his whole army. His roaches killed my ground force, but by the time I had already killed all the hydras and he was forced to retreat.
Well to be honest I was a bit surprised that I actually won that game, I did some huge flaws at some parts of the game with the macro. I will watch the game again some time (don't have time now) and see if I was only lucky, or if carriers where indeed a good choice.
it really works
against Zerg going for a fast exp it's easy to get them with their pants down
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oh and to all Terran players you are all freaking lame twats which don't know anything other than bioball
and again I'd like to say thanks to blizzard for messing up PvT soo much, I demand to either remove the EMP or completly nerf Marauders, those little faggots have no place in SC2
Tried Spychi's strat yesterday, and yeah, it does work well. I'll stick to my FE build though. I feel like a scrub if I cannon-rush anybody. :P