The Protoss Players Thread

So since there is a Terran Players thread I figured there should be a Protoss one. What are your guys favorite build orders? The following is my favorite ZSI build.

7
8
Pylon
9
10
11
12
13
Gateway
14
Pylon
Assimilator
15
Cybernetics Core

and then I branch off into either 4 gate and research warpgate right away then go for robo or I go 2 gate and tech to Robo as soon as possible to get Immortals while starting warpgate research and adding 2 more gateways when resources are available.

I've found that going 8 pylon instead of 9 has zero downtime and workers are being build the entire time. No waiting for the pylon to pop in.

Of course I'm pumping out Zealots/Sentries the entire time and against zerg I usually go gateway a little earlier to account for the ling rush. I even go 2 gate before core against zerg sometimes.

Happy to see you took the advice and made this :D

Being a terran player i can't put up a BO but i can say the phoenix's are good unit for the protoss's earlier game

I personally prefer a 9pylon (tried 8 pylon, never liked it personally), 12gateway setting myself. I used to do 10gate but found it way too restricted, and a 13gate seems a bit too slow to me, especially against ling rushes.

I 1gate tech to robo bay in every single match. Gets me an immortal and an Obs pretty fast. From there it depends on what I see my opponent doing.

But as I'm on the bottom of the barrel (copper league) I'm probably the last person to listen to, lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xyvik

I personally prefer a 9pylon (tried 8 pylon, never liked it personally), 12gateway setting myself. I used to do 10gate but found it way too restricted, and a 13gate seems a bit too slow to me, especially against ling rushes.

I 1gate tech to robo bay in every single match. Gets me an immortal and an Obs pretty fast. From there it depends on what I see my opponent doing.

But as I'm on the bottom of the barrel (copper league) I'm probably the last person to listen to, lol.

---

I've been pretty steadily making my way up bronze with the above build. I usually go 11gate or 12gate against zerg to stop the ling rush but against toss and terran I go 13gate. With 9pylon and chronoboost I've always found that I'm supply locked for a nice chunk of time before the pylon finishes which is why I've started going 8pylon.

You should get your 9th probe and pylon (usually moving out the probe at 8th supply), queue your 10th & 11th probe. Send out the previous probe to scout, then as soon as you see pylon finishing, Chrono-boost ur nexus and queue probe # 12.

As soon as your 11th probe is done and you're waiting for probe 12 to com out, send to build a GW as soon as you have about 140mins - by the time it reaches the pylon, you're at 150 mins. Slap down the GW and shift-click to min patch, then queue probe # 13 and glance at your scouting probe by double-tapping its group hotkey (that u assumedly assigned as you sent it out to scout).


I know the above is lengthy, but this gives you the correct timing to 9 pylon.

9 pylon
11 - Chronoboost nex
12 gate
13 assim #1
13 - CB nex again
14 pylon
15 gate
16 assim #2

17 or 18 zealot
CB gate to pull out zeal faster - esp vs zerg

Then get Core as you get 200 mins, or skip zealot and core if your opponent is just teching without getting initial zealot/ling. Against T, always get the initial zealot to deny scv scout, or just wait to get 1 stalker and chase the scv till it dies. Depending on what route you wanna adopt.

Also, get Warpgate research ASAP - only 50min/50gas!! Extremely important. CB the research at least 2x at any point to get it out quickly. And always get more gates (usually 3 in total) as soon as you are researching WG or teching up to HT/DT/VR/Robo or whatever.

Always try getting 1 sentry out at least. If you're teching, 1-2 FF blocking your ramp gives your tech units time to come out, and can save you from a horde of marine/marauders, ling/roach or zeal/stalker/sentry or pure zeals.

Blocking that initial rush is key in a tech build. Otherwise, be aggressive, and proxy pylon or 2 gate zeal for a bit while keeping an eye for run-by's by lings or stray zealots. Throwing your opponent into defense mode or in panic works better for you always! :)

Just don't get overrun at your choke and you're good for mid-game to expo or go 1 base aggressive push with zealot/sentry/immortal, or stalker/zealot/DT or HT.




EDIT:

The reasoning behind 9 pylon is that it gives you a slightly better econ to afford that inital zealot asap, or to afford a proxy pylon if you are going for that type of harass, without hurting your economy. 8 pylon tightens the amount of minerals you have to spend, and thus are limited to turtling with an inferior economy - very bad combination...

Unless you are going for very very fast tech while skipping zealot, the 8 pylon is very risky.

My build:

9 Pylon
Gateway
10 Chrono
12 Chrono
13 Assimilator
Core
Pylon
Stalker
16 Stalker Chrono
Pylon
Stalker Chrono
Pylon
Stalker Chrono

Then it varies by matchup.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

My build:

9 Pylon
Gateway
10 Chrono
12 Chrono
13 Assimilator
Core
Pylon
Stalker
16 Stalker Chrono
Pylon
Stalker Chrono
Pylon
Stalker Chrono

Then it varies by matchup.

---

You'll end up getting overrun with ling rush waiting for stalkers. Do you go zealot against zerg?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hav0x

You'll end up getting overrun with ling rush waiting for stalkers. Do you go zealot against zerg?

---

I have never once lost to a Zergling rush where my choke was properly set up. I have always gotten my first Stalker out before any Zerglings come, with time to spare.

Now Roach rushes... those kill me.

I like to keep my eco pumping early game so I usually use this so far (though I havent played too much yet, so still refining it... just finished my 10 placement games after skipping the practice league):
Pumping probes the entire time
9 pylon (CB nexus AFTER it finishes or you waste a good portion of it)
13 gate (scout with this probe)
14 assim
16 pylon
zeal once pylon complete
20 pylon
22 core
2nd assim some time after that to make sure I have gas for robo if I dont plan on using stalkers.

If I encounter some more rushes, I might be inclined to switch to a 2 gate build since protoss seems extremely weak in the rush department atm.

TRD, (hey man :) ) don't you find 13 gate a lil late esp in PvZ? Isn't 12 gate better in that you can get the zealot out faster?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by protoswarrior

TRD, (hey man :) ) don't you find 13 gate a lil late esp in PvZ? Isn't 12 gate better in that you can get the zealot out faster?

---

I havent really had an issue with ling rushes so far, most seem to tech up a bit. You can also CB the gate if you scout a ling rush and get a zeal + probe (or if hes a bit late 2-3 zeals) on your ramp to block it so he cant surround. So I like getting a stronger eco earlier, since you seem to really need a good eco with all of the swaps that a zerg can do.

The only rush I have lost to was a rine rush, but that was like my 3rd game in and I think I have improved a bit since then.

Any lategame advice for PvT? The toss have been seriously nerfed since I last played them, and it's hard to push back a bio/mech army.

Also, does the PvP early game consist of just launching zealots at one another? Because I died to that like 4 times.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gradius

Any lategame advice for PvT? The toss have been seriously nerfed since I last played them, and it's hard to push back a bio/mech army.

Also, does the PvP early game consist of just launching zealots at one another? Because I died to that like 4 times.

---

By late game(i mean 25-30minutes) It's actually easy to get both Robo facility units(immortals+collosi) + Templar archives for psi-storm,And you can either go mass stalkers with blink or combined army of stalker/zealot/sentry/HT/immortals/collosi , personally i like the latter more...Although that is a true late game army...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gradius

Any lategame advice for PvT? The toss have been seriously nerfed since I last played them, and it's hard to push back a bio/mech army.

Also, does the PvP early game consist of just launching zealots at one another? Because I died to that like 4 times.

---

What i've seen work in PvP is gettig eaither storkers (speciely after the dmg change) or senteris (or how its spelled) with your zelots, just to get some more dps behind your units...
or (sorry to say this) get more micro in: get your low heath units out of the fight and so on; (and as i haven't seen your play, kinda hard to see what you can improve)

How do you guys suggest dealing with reaper rush's on a proxy racks. Seems pretty cheese. Zealots can't catch em, and they destroy your economy by the time you can get a stalker up.

If it's proxy rax, scouting is your friend. You see something suspicious (like 1 rax in main and very lil buildings), expect cheese. The best counter to reapers are a couple of stalkers and a sentry or 2.

Usually you open with 13 gate, 14-15 gas then go for cyber-core (right?). During that time, you are scouting. Always prep for the worst case - reapers are sometimes a pain if you're not prepped for it. Having 1 zealot out and 1 sentry out early can allow you to stall for a stalker to come out while you run probes and have the sentry chase the reapers - if he attacks with them at that point which is usually 2-3 of em. 1 zealot + 1 sentry can easily deal with them, or delay them enough to allow a stalker out.

REMEMBER:

The fact that the Terran CHEESED and went REAPERS, puts you in the advantage in tech if he cannot touch your econ. And stalkers with that 1 sentry gives you that. For any tech build you do as Protoss (I find), you need at least 1 sentry to FF ur ramp, even vs lings.

And, always research Warp gates as soon as your core is done. AND SCOUT LIKE A MADMAN!!

The problem with that is, they can get reapers to your base long long before you can get stalkers up. Specially if the racks is proxied. By the time you get a few stalkers or a sentry up, they have already destroyed your economy, or stalled your tech.

If you notice that hes doing a proxy rax stop using CB on your nexus and use it on your gateway(s) to pump out whatever units you can, ranged is obviously preferred as you should have a core down by this point.

I do the 9 pylon and change my strategy depending upon after scouting with the probe that put the 9th pylon down. I than do Zealot rush, Stalker+Immortal+Colossi, and other such things. I haven't felt the need to go air unless enemy goes air.

I find myself getting a little air against zerg purely to deter him from getting muta. Its also not too bad to overlord harass (though maybe I should start killing a few workers)

With Gradius here: any good later game VS Terran strats? Especially when they go air? I can't seem to stop viking+banshee. My Phoenix gets owned by viking, stalkers get owned by banshee's...it was a brutal mess

Vs Terran air I find your best bet is crying in a corner and hoping its over soon.

You can also spam Zealots and Immortals to take down his base before he takes yours, seeing as getting that many air units takes a lot of resources and both Zealots and Immortals obliterate any Vikings who may land.

Fun shit.

Stormers is generally my counter to basically anything late game. feedback banshees, and storm in itself is absolutely devastating to most air units. VR's destroy BCs and carriers as well. The only problem with this is, I feel like if you're forced to go stormers if you expect the game to go that long, there is far too long of a wait period to tech to make HT's useful. You require both upgrades for them to have any real purpose in relation to their massive gas cost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xyvik

With Gradius here: any good later game VS Terran strats? Especially when they go air? I can't seem to stop viking+banshee. My Phoenix gets owned by viking, stalkers get owned by banshee's...it was a brutal mess

---

Did you try using sentries at all in your mix of stalker/Phoenix?

Granted that you'd be spending 100 gas for every sentry, but the advantage is the Guardian Shield. With that, maybe the stalkers would survive long enough to take out the banshees, and the group of Phoenix should be kept behind the stalker line normally doing hit-and-runs due to their very fast speed. Although, Vikings have range 9, if they're hovering above your stalker/sentry, select 4 stalkers out of your group and micro them to snipe off those vikings with shift click.

I know this is all very micro-intensive, but honestly, since you allowed T to build that kind of force, you must have scouted his tech and started countering with stalkers. Having warp-in helps so much in these situations, and since this mix requires a lot of micro, you could be on top since you can micro/warp-in pretty quickly with Protoss.

Guardian Shield's +2 temp armor gives stalkers a huge boost to sustain banshee damage. Also, what was your follow up plan after dealing with viking/banshee?

Protoss in late game is boring. It's either spam anything you can or die. Carriers still suck (though I've seen no-one mass them yet), the Mothership is a wreck in itself and DTs have been lost to nerfing, as once the enemy can see them, you're finished. And, Protoss suck against air.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by horror

Protoss in late game is boring. It's either spam anything you can or die. Carriers still suck (though I've seen no-one mass them yet), the Mothership is a wreck in itself and DTs have been lost to nerfing, as once the enemy can see them, you're finished. And, Protoss suck against air.

---

Er... what league are you in?

Btw, just FYI, Carriers are mofo killers man... In a FFA, I was given the chance to mass 5 carriers and a token stalker/sentry/zealot force and boy was THAT devastating!! I eventually had 12 carriers and was unstoppable even vs 8-10 VRs one of the other guy had.

Carriers are extremely GOOD if you have enough. 5-6 carriers seem to be the critical mass where they are the most effective. They are quite tough to take down.

Yeah Carriers are awesome. But mass Vikings own Protoss air so bad though. :[

Vikings are the new Scourge. I don't bother with air vs Terran, they slaughter everything I build from my Starport. I can accept them killing my VR's well... but not my Phoenix. Not like they do.

Carriers are amazing, and I have been thinking of ways to really abuse them, though it is difficult since so many people rush you right off the bat. You apparently cant shoot the interceptors anymore (I actually didnt know of this change) and they start with 4 and you can build 4 more (no more need to get an upgrade for 8). They may not be good in PvT since vikings are ridiculous and terran has a tendency to pick some up these days to counter colossus, but PvP and PvZ they are probably really good now.

I'm kinda wondering if Carriers can be used in smaller numbers nowadays...

Carriers will work a bit better against Protoss after the Stalker adjustment. Void Rays are still a problem, but otherwise? They could be pretty good. Wonder how much their upgrade affects their damage output...

Against Zerg they'll be very problematic if they haven't gone for a spire, though. So that's maybe something to take advantage of.

Maybe a Phoenix - > Carrier build could work.

Quote:

---

You apparently cant shoot the interceptors anymore (I actually didnt know of this change)

---

You absolutely can.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aldrius

I'm kinda wondering if Carriers can be used in smaller numbers nowadays...

Carriers will work a bit better against Protoss after the Stalker adjustment. Void Rays are still a problem, but otherwise? They could be pretty good. Wonder how much their upgrade affects their damage output...

Against Zerg they'll be very problematic if they haven't gone for a spire, though. So that's maybe something to take advantage of.

Maybe a Phoenix - > Carrier build could work.



You absolutely can.

---

Can you? I tried to target them with a selection box and I cant pick any of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer

Can you? I tried to target them with a selection box and I cant pick any of them.

---

Well my units definitely attack them if I A-move into a field of them.

Oh yeah,i made a little test today-Carrier beats Mothership in 1v1-with both all upgrades and without any....The range of the Carriers probably makes them superior even than the battlecruisers-who not just have 6 damage vs air but also 6 range..

You guys should break it down like I did, would be easier to get the info.

So how exactly is toss supposed to counter Banshees & Vikings? I've just been getting murdered by this. I've tried going stalkers/phoenix, mass phoenix, void rays, carriers. Everything I can think of and they just roll right through my army. Not to mention that with some marines it becomes even more potent.

Here is a replay of me being completely destroyed by this strat.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/3xwywy...ngOP.SC2Replay

I'm at a loss for what to do with this. I've tried mixing sentries in with my stalkers as well, to no avail.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hav0x

So how exactly is toss supposed to counter Banshees & Vikings? I've just been getting murdered by this. I've tried going stalkers/phoenix, mass phoenix, void rays, carriers. Everything I can think of and they just roll right through my army. Not to mention that with some marines it becomes even more potent.

Here is a replay of me being completely destroyed by this strat.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/3xwywy...ngOP.SC2Replay

I'm at a loss for what to do with this. I've tried mixing sentries in with my stalkers as well, to no avail.

---

As I said before, the preferred strategy is to cry in a corner and hope its over quickly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

As I said before, the preferred strategy is to cry in a corner and hope its over quickly.

---

Preferably while listening to the tune from deliverance.

I have a replay, and I used stalker/Phoenix with zealots to counter any marines and to try to keep my min count down...

It works great vs Banshee viking. Don't forget blink on stalkers. I messed up macro-wise in the game, but I ended up winning - he even went BC lol.

Quote:

---

Here is a replay of me being completely destroyed by this strat.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/3xwywy...ngOP.SC2Replay

---

Did you even watch that replay? Your loss was completely your fault. There were plenty of times you could have done something, but you just didn't.

First, you scouted a very late Barracks! He had a 3-depot wall, but he hadn't even started his Barracks. Why did you tech? You could:

1: Fast expand.

2: KILL HIM!

I'm aggressive, so I'd just rally to his base, break down his wall, and kill him. While expanding.

In any case, there's no reason you shouldn't have had a huge advantage against him.

So you tech. For some reason. You scout him going for Vikings and Banshees. You've already built an Immortal by this time. So you send a strike team in that kills his expo. But then you just lose the strike team. You throw it away on some Marines. You had the econ advantage again, and you threw it away by not leaving while the getting was good.

So on the one hand, you were underagressive, then you were overaggressive, expecting a couple Zealots and Stalkers to take out a gaggle of Marines.

Then, you do something mind-numbingly stupid. You built a lot of Zealots. I don't know why. However, oddly enough, it "works", since you're able to walk into his base. The problem is again what you do there. You also forgot to get gas from your expo (not to mention your expo was way, way late).

You see his new expo, but rather than start killing SCVs, you go for... StarPorts? Really? What, did you expect his 12x2 Banshees to not kill your Zealots or something? At least if you'd attacked his SCVs, you'd have killed something important.

So he retaliates by killing your Probes at your expo. However, you are able to send it away.

Now we come to the late game.

Your main is getting mined out. Do you take a second expo? No, but he does. You have all these useless Photon Cannons, which won't do squat against the number of units he's throwing around. And you've had an Observer in his base this whole time, so you know he's adding a large Marine ball to his units.

So where's the Psi Storm? Colossi aren't a good idea with all that air, but High Templar are a good idea. Where was it? You got Dark Templar.

And where was Blink? You got Charge for Zealots... for some reason. Where was the Blink that would allow your Sentries to concentrate on his Vikings?

See, the problem with fighting Banshee/Viking as Protoss is the Vikings. Phoenixes are firing pea-shooters at them; your main damage dealers have to be your Stalkers. But Stalkers fall prey to Banshees. The key is to use your Stalkers to take out his Vikings, so that your Phoenixes can take out his Banshees. To do that, you need to be able to keep your Stalkers away from his Banshees. That requires micro, but it also requires Blink.

So you let him take an expo. You don't look for him expanding; you don't send a sacrificial Phoenix or Observer around to check for expos. You just let him have the map.

How could you possibly expect to survive?

I've found that against Zerg, the first melee upgrade makes a huge difference in any kind of ling rush, and chrono boosting it brings it out pretty quickly.

As for reapers, if I know the opponent is Terran, I either go single gateway to either an early core for the stalkers or a forge for a cannon in the mineral line. That's usually enough for a super early reaper push.

With stalkers though, I do try to push early blink because once you have an obs and 6-8 stalkers, you can cliff hop harass very easily, which can be a huge advantage.

I've had a hard time transitioning to either colossi or HT and most of my wins as toss come from overwhelming numbers of blinking stalkers w/ upgrades. Anyone found a sweet spot for this transition or any good triggers?