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No, it isn't; it's a computer task. You get a high score by not thinking and robotically repeating an action ad-nausium.Quote:
It absolutly is a game. Its a timing challenge.
Calling that a "challenge" is an insult to actual game designers that put real challenge into their games.
While I would hate the notion of a game coming down to who pressed the macro button more consistently....I really think this is a great tool for training yourself on many of those tasks that win games - I did something very similar early on using a stopwatch. :) while that does help your timing, this would really train you to keep from missing these very important little tasks. I'm definitely going to try this. Very clever. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by TWD
First off its probably one of the most challenging mechanics in the game. Second it doesnt matter if a computer can do it. It matters if you can do it. You dont like the challenge. Im sorry. Dont play zerg.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Being able to assign queens to hatcheries would dumb the Zerg game too much. You might as well throw in an autocast on Spawn Larva and have them auto-inject every 40 seconds at that point.
I'd support this idea if it had the Queen "deploy" itself or attach itself next to a hatchery, disallowing it to attack or move while babysitting the hatchery. But as others have said in the thread, you can use control groups to help you accomplish the tasks atm.
ArcherofAuir I have 2 questions for you:
1) Do you think that Blizzard should not have included rally mining in SC2?
2) Would you be against SL being able to be auto cast?
That's ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
"If you don't like tedious apm fests that don't actually involve any strategic decision making... then um... play Protoss or Terran!"
So I guess Zerg in addition to lacking a capital ship, a proper cloaked attacker, an aerial spellcaster, AA at tier 1, an ATA attacker that's actually good at killing something other than capital ships. They also have to go without a strategic macro mechanic now? Why exactly is that again?
It does matter if a computer can do it. If a computer can do it, the task is best left to a computer. A computer couldn't handle MULE, a computer couldn't handle chrono-boost (at least not without messing either up for you), so why should the Zerg be the only one with a macro mechanic better left to a computer?Quote:
Second it doesnt matter if a computer can do it. It matters if you can do it.
How does taking one mouse click out of the process "dumb down the game"? You still have to remember to use it, and you still have to specifically tell the Queen to cast the ability. It just requires one less mouse click in order to do so. I really don't think it's a big deal, but it doesn't really matter. I've found that putting the Hatchery and the Queen in the same control group is just as good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asfastasican
Thanks! I'm actually thinking of just making a dedicated timer app. Then you could time more than one thing at once. I thought a good application for this would already exist, but I can't seem to find it. I'm thinking of doing it in C#. It would allow you to add as many timers as you want and set the duration, sound effect, and hotkey for each one. You'd also be able to save/load your configuration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliban113
However, right now the sound file is more than enough. There's just no need for me to time more than one thing at once. Everything else in the game makes a sound when they are finished. You can only hear the spawn larvae when you are looking at it. If I felt a sufficient number of people would use the app, or that it would cause a ruckus then maybe I would look back into it.
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PAXIL ATTORNEYS
Again, calling it "challenging" is an insult to actual challenge. It is only challenge in the same way that paying your bills is a challenge: if you don't do it, they shut off your electricity. It's all risk and no thought; it is only difficult because of the risk.Quote:
First off its probably one of the most challenging mechanics in the game.
Spawn Larva is the perfect macro mechanic by your definition. It has exactly the same characteristics as manual mining (requires frequent player upkeep at regular intervals, doing it gives you minerals, failing means auto-lose), but it looks like something different. It is exactly the kind of mechanic that you wanted in your very first post on these forums about macro.Quote:
Second it doesnt matter if a computer can do it. It matters if you can do it.
The kind a computer could do. And thus the kind a computer should do. If being able to do something a computer is perfectly capable of doing impresses you, then there's nothing more that can be said. I stopped being impressed by someone doing idiotic, braindead tasks when I was 5.
OLs have transport time, and Nydus Worms are permanent (and thus vulnerable). Of course, Morphalisks also have disadvantages, but that's what makes them a good Macro ability, a reason to use them, and a reason not to use them (most of the time the reason is 'another' ability, but there's no reason it has to be the only one).Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Yep, and it has disadvantages that SL doesn't, but that's a good thing if we're talking about replacing SL with an ability that doesn't make the queen practically single-use. SL is an ability to be used just about as often as possible, Mutate Larva is an ability with a definite, if variable, upper limit.Quote:
The only real advantage it provides over spawn larvae is variability. You can change them into anything you like instantly. Rather than spawn larvae which has all the normal build-times.
Except that the morphing wasn't instant, or even Warp-In quick, but it was faster than usual (whether by a percentage or a fixed time we'll probably never know), which made it basically useless in an attack force, but would have been useful in the wake of an attack, to replace lost troops.Quote:
I kinda like it more now to be honest... it'd give spreading the creep another purpose. Getting your mutant larvae to the front lines so they can instantly morph into whatever units you need.
Er... and what are the Morphalisks using to transport around? They can't exactly fly and are pretty much limited to creep. Therefore you need to use Overlord transport or Nydus Worms, in which case you might as well just morph them there.Quote:
Originally Posted by MattII
The key thing is the variability I'd think. You could stockpile them in the back of your base, or bring them to your front-line very slowly. Particularly in the early game where you have roaches and zerglings which counter very different things.
The mobility of the actual unit would be good more towards the mid-late game. When you have lots of options and lots of bases. They'd be good for defense actually.
Yeah, the key thing being the supply-limit I believe. It'd kinda regress back into just being spawn larvae as the game progresses. But all three macro mechanics kind of do that anyway.Quote:
Yep, and it has disadvantages that SL doesn't, but that's a good thing if we're talking about replacing SL with an ability that doesn't make the queen practically single-use. SL is an ability to be used just about as often as possible, Mutate Larva is an ability with a definite, if variable, upper limit.
Outside of the 50-second spawn time I'm pretty sure it was instantaneous. The spawn larvae took time, but the actual unit morphing was very quick. I believe anyway. I don't know for sure.Quote:
Except that the morphing wasn't instant, or even Warp-In quick, but it was faster than usual (whether by a percentage or a fixed time we'll probably never know), which made it basically useless in an attack force, but would have been useful in the wake of an attack, to replace lost troops.
What if the Morphalisk could cliff-...crawl?
It'd be an alternative to getting your units into an enemy base with the Nydus worm for a one-way mission (I'm thinking Banelings). Take longer to produce, with the risk of doing it on the spot, but there'd be no warning. If he didn't scout his base, tough.
With the addition of subsequent macro mechanics, yes. Manual mining was not an appropriate task for its role. Its much better to have a two tiered macro system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noise
Yes for the same reason MULEs, and Chronoboost shouldnt be autocast. Its doesnt fit the mechanics role.Quote:
2) Would you be against SL being able to be auto cast?
Would it be fair to say that if you didnt like micromanaging terran siege tanks in SC1 that Zerg or Protoss might be a better race to try?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
They do have strategic macro. They have to manage what to turn their larva into.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Because the Zerg challenge is a timing challenge. It rewards players who have the best timing.Quote:
It does matter if a computer can do it. If a computer can do it, the task is best left to a computer. A computer couldn't handle MULE, a computer couldn't handle chrono-boost (at least not without messing either up for you), so why should the Zerg be the only one with a macro mechanic better left to a computer?
The difficulty is far more than just the risk. In the late game it becomes increasingly more difficult to time SL perfectly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
This is wrong. Failing to do Spawn Larva does not mean autolose. It depends entirely on what else you are doing and what the opponent is doing.Quote:
failing means auto-lose
To answer your question, High level players who can consistantly manage Spawn Larva throughout the game are incredibly impressive.Quote:
The kind a computer could do. And thus the kind a computer should do. If being able to do something a computer is perfectly capable of doing impresses you, then there's nothing more that can be said. I stopped being impressed by someone doing idiotic, braindead tasks when I was 5.
And no just because a computer can do a video game task does not mean that a computer should do that task.
This is where I feel that your argument starts to fall apart. You still believe that this is a difficult challenge that will help to separate players. That this is something even the highest level players will have difficulty with. I am saying otherwise. Within a year everyone that is even remotely serious about playing this game will be nearly perfect at this skill. Professional players will never miss a spawn larvae opportunity. It's just too important to the Zerg game, and it's too easy to pull off consistently. The only ones that won't be doing it are complete n00bs that have no clue everyone else is timing it. In fact, the funny thing is you don't even have to do it every time. Assuming you have a queen for every hatchery, you simply can't accumulate resources fast enough to use them all.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Every time I've played a game with some sort of timing mechanic it's been a problem. Just look at first person shooter games and the whole timing powerups thing. When I played the Unreal Tournament games competitively we had an extra person in teamspeak with us just to time the powerups and notify us. You literally had to because the powerups were that helpful. It became a contentious issue because many thought it was cheating, but there was nothing you could do to stop it. The only solution was to make it so easy to time that everyone could do it and have a chance. That's why most of these games now have a clock built right in to the hud.
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You can get 8 morphalisks in an OL, yet any units produced by those Morphalisks will fill 2+ OLs (16 Zerglings, 8 Hyrdas/Roaches, 8 Ultras, etc.), or will morph to air units, which don't need OLs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Unfortunately, so, but that's because the current mechanics are one-sided abilities that you simply use as often as possible, rather than actually involving some sort of decision making.Quote:
Yeah, the key thing being the supply-limit I believe. It'd kinda regress back into just being spawn larvae as the game progresses. But all three macro mechanics kind of do that anyway.
Oh, well I never looked too deeply into the ability, only what was up on the wikia.Quote:
Outside of the 50-second spawn time I'm pretty sure it was instantaneous. The spawn larvae took time, but the actual unit morphing was very quick. I believe anyway. I don't know for sure.
Im going off professional FPVODs of SC1 that show that even the best players dont do perfect manual mining the entire time. Furthermore the FPVODs of SC2 zerg players that I have watched show that even they dont do SL perfectly. You can speculate that maybe theyll do it perfectly after theyve had enough practice but thats still just pure speculation with no supporting evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by TWD
Going back to the issue of whether there is tension in the queens abilities I dont think that can safely be said yet. I for one am seeing allot more use of creep tumors than at the begining of beta. Take this game for instance where a early creep tumor was instrumental in zerg winning.
http://www.youtube.com/user/BlizShou.../3/8jNBf8loTbY
Except MULE and Chrono Boost COULDN'T be auto-cast. How would that even work?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Spawn larvae, though? Easily could be autocast.
That's... even more ridiculous. So Zerg are now DEFINED by this spell? The same way tank micro defined Terran in SC1? I mean tank micro is almost the quintessential idea for Terrans. Positioning, long range firepower, two types of attacks. Can be used for defense or offense very well.Quote:
Would it be fair to say that if you didnt like micromanaging terran siege tanks in SC1 that Zerg or Protoss might be a better race to try?
You want to compare Spawn Larvae to THAT?
Maybe, but the spell itself isn't strategic at all. And I really wanted to like the Queen.Quote:
They do have strategic macro. They have to manage what to turn their larva into.
That's not a pretty menial difference of timing. Either you get it right away, or you don't. It's not like a timing ATTACK where you have a multitude of different factors to consider. And attacking too soon can be just as bad as attacking too late. It's just 'hit it 45 seconds on the dot after you cast it last'. You can't hit it too soon, and if you hit it too late, you're not playing as well as you could or should be.Quote:
Because the Zerg challenge is a timing challenge. It rewards players who have the best timing.
If you miss it, you're doing it wrong. It might not cost you the game, but you're doing it worse than your opponent. Even if the Orbital Command ONLY had MULES, you wouldn't be punished as much because it stockpiles energy. If you cast it two seconds later than your opponent, he'll get those minerals sooner, but you'll be able to cast it again at the exact same time. In the end it won't make much of a noticeable difference.
Maybe not, but it's certainly very discouraging when playing a game. I mean just LOOK at how objectively simple and easy spawn larvae is. There's nothing to it. It's a distraction from playing the game, as some sort of weird APM buffer. Personally I'd prefer something more challenging.Quote:
And no just because a computer can do a video game task does not mean that a computer should do that task.
And right now, I think that the supply-using mutant larvae is that. I don't like making the Queen into a Hatchery add-on... I mean it's already barely a unit as it is. So to me, spawn larvae should have a downside. And if the units cost that supply for 45 seconds, then that's a downside you need to consider when you cast the spell.
I mean that might be too drastic, though. 4 useless supply with each hatchery for 45 seconds... I dunno.
MULE and Chronoboost could be autocast so they continually cast on the same location. But there not. Why? Because that would go against the role of the mechanic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Maintaining maximal larva generation seems like a pretty appropriate task for the zerg. Fits with their racial themes and playstyles.Quote:
That's... even more ridiculous. So Zerg are now DEFINED by this spell? The same way tank micro defined Terran in SC1? I mean tank micro is almost the quintessential idea for Terrans. Positioning, long range firepower, two types of attacks. Can be used for defense or offense very well.
You want to compare Spawn Larvae to THAT?
The spell doesnt need to be strategic. It needs to add strategy to the game.Quote:
Maybe, but the spell itself isn't strategic at all.
No they couldn't. That's not how auto-cast works. Auto-cast needs criteria. MULE potentially COULD be auto-cast. (Have energy, cast MULE on the nearest mineral patch) But there's NO WAY it'd work for Chrono Boost.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Maintaining. So not generating, but maintaining.Quote:
Maintaining maximal larva generation seems like a pretty appropriate task for the zerg. Fits with their racial themes and playstyles.
It might fit their racial theme, but playstyle? How exactly? Zerg are about overwhelming the opponent, not going back to your base every 45 seconds to get more larvae. And even then, it's not nearly as interesting, meaningful or evocative as tank micro is of the Terran race.
Honestly, I'm still flabbergasted that you're saying spawn larvae is the essential component of SC2 Zerg. I mean are Zerg really THAT boring in StarCraft 2?
The two are one in the same. Larvae already provide strategy in letting you choose what units you're going to build. Spawn larvae is just like having an extra hatchery except you have to click an extra button 45 seconds in advance to get the optimal number of larvae.Quote:
The spell doesnt need to be strategic. It needs to add strategy to the game.
This is simply because none of them have even thought to try it yet. As soon as everyone realizes how easy and effective it is this will change. Historical precedent is almost completely on my side. If it's reasonably possible and provides a clear advantage it will get abused to death. All it takes is one day of using the method and you'll see how possible it really is.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
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Nexium side effect
And when you provide a FPVOD showing a pro player doing it perfectly ill believe you...Quote:
Originally Posted by TWD
And if by then it's too late to change the game?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Oops?
What if players dont build anything but banshees in the future after theve practiced. By the time we realized it it would be too late to change the game!Quote:
Originally Posted by pure.Wasted
There have been no trends that identify Banshee teching as the Terran strat superior to all others.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
There have been trends that identify that players realize that strats making use of SL are superior to identical strats that don't make use of SL, and acting accordingly.
So do we worry about the problems we can't anticipate, or the problems we can?
Actually the trend we are seeing is more and more Creep Tumor usage.Quote:
Originally Posted by pure.Wasted
(Caliban potentially opens can of worms)
I thought the whole idea behind these new mechanics, was to replace the "useless clicking" from the old SC1 definition of Macro - with more 'useful clicking'; Replacing the lost actions eliminated by SC2s more modern UI automations with more meaningful gameplay related Macro-stuff? I thought the idea was to give the Macro-oriented players more challenge. - Isn't turning around now, and automating these mechanics sort of defeating that?
Im reading these posts, and am detecting a change in the Macro debate, but I'm having a hard time figuring out what it is, I guess. :)
OK, well I'm super glad that the testimony from Zerg players in this very thread admitting the measures they've gone to to become MUCH more efficient in using SL, because they realize its importance, is something you continue to take into account.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
...or not.
There's a few issues being raised. The one about SL is that it's evidently not an actual challenge, as Zerg players are already becoming quite good at staying on top of it at all times. And these aren't pro players we're talking about.Quote:
I thought the idea was to give the Macro-oriented players more challenge. - Isn't turning around now, and automating these mechanics sort of defeating that?
The other issue is how valuable is a challenge that is mechanical only, as opposed to mechanical and has gameplay-depth to it. The "can be automated" argument is being used to demonstrate that abilities have little, or no, gameplay-depth to them.
Even if they cast it twice, that's only 2 spawn larvae cycles the Zerg player misses out on. That's hardly competition. I mean I think eventually creep tumor will prove itself very useful, and people will use it more often, but at the same time I think I'd rather spawn larvae be more interesting and dynamic than it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Also Transfusion is never used at all.
Exactly. In my opinion there are only 3 reasons you should be using creep tumor:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
- You missed a spawn larvae and have the extra energy
- You have more Queens than Hatcheries
- You are trying to defend a natural choke point.
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Zoloft Lawsuit
suppose the queen could create a free unit that had a buff aura would that be worth competing with SL
now what if that unit was cloaked
now what if that unit could create another free unit every couple seconds
Then it would be very valuable competition with SL that one time that you need to cast it from the Queen.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Now suppose that one unit got killed and you wanted to make another one. Or suppose you wanted to start another line.Quote:
Originally Posted by pure.Wasted
This reminds me of when people said "oh no one will use Scanner Sweep because it costs 270 min" or "oh it will only be used once when you get DT rushed" And low and behold we still see high level players using Scanner Sweep all the time.
Ive said it before and ill say it again
Looking imbalanced on paper does not nessisarily mean it is imbalanced in the game!
I don't remember people saying Scanner Sweep will never be used...
But Scanner Sweep is a touch different than Creep Tumor. You need scanner sweep a lot more often than creep tumor.
Anyway, point is, Spawn Larvae COULD be more interesting, and hence it should be.
I think gas should be more interesting. Wheres my improved gas mechanics?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Blizzard gave up. They declared intellectual bankruptcy. Instead of continuing to try and make something fun, they simply made gas harder to get.
Well after gas is made more interesting than they can work on SL as it stands now the queen is more than interesting enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
Gas is a resource mechanic true of all races. Spawn larvae is ONE race's macro mechanic.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Chrono-boost is sort of interesting in how it can affect your teching and build orders, Orbital Command is fairly cool in how you have to choose between it and a solid base defense. And how you make use of scan and MULE.
The Queen is also the most ADVERTISED new Zerg unit. It was the big announcement we got back when they first unveiled the Zerg. And what is it? Well, it spreads the creep... and it adds larvae... and it heals buildings. The larvae thing would be interesting if you could do anything more with them, but otherwise it's an APM sink, a lame macro mechanic. It's not even all that cool a unit.
It's not even that harder to get. It just costs you SLIGHTLY more minerals/food to get the same amount. And then if you spend that, you get MORE than you would have in SC1. It's more strategic than it was in the first game.Quote:
Blizzard gave up. They declared intellectual bankruptcy. Instead of continuing to try and make something fun, they simply made gas harder to get.
Yeah but you're forgetting that that "unit" can't move and it takes forever for it's area of effect to grow. You simply can't get the creep to where you want it fast enough for it to make a difference. By the time you even get it past your expansion you could just have another queen and creep dropping overlords to take care of it instead. Hence why it's just not worth it to use that first Queen for anything other than spawn larvae. If you screw up and accumulate enough energy then go ahead, but otherwise the extra units will help you more than the extra creep will.
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Considering how lame their attempts to make gas interesting were, we're probably better off. Gross stupidity is not as good as intellectual bankruptcy.Quote:
Blizzard gave up. They declared intellectual bankruptcy. Instead of continuing to try and make something fun, they simply made gas harder to get.
Besides, I don't believe that Blizzard ever really intended to solve the macro problem correctly. Remember: Blizzard had to be told that it existed to begin with. It seems clear that Blizzard didn't intend to make macro more interesting; rather, they decided to just make it take up time and APM in ways that seem different.
See, the lay reviewers would immediately notice the absence of rally mine and MBS. They would immediately call SC2 an antique and relic for not modernizing their game. So instead, they create a small suite of new abilities that are APM sinks. They function similarly to manual mining, but give different advantages. Most important of all, most reviewers would see them as new and different, not realizing that they're mechanically identical to rally mining.
Sure, some of them aren't brainless. You can build strategies around what to Chrono Boost, so that one is a real mechanic. Supply Drop needs to drop more supplies to effectively compete monetarily with MULEs, but it has the potential to do so. But Spawn Larva is something you use on the clock, every clock. No thought, no strategy, just do it or lose.
I just don't think Blizzard really understood the macro problem well enough to solve it, because so many of their solutions never really addressed the inherent mindless problem.
Building a single Creep Tumor can pay dividends, even with Creep-dropping Overlords. Overlords can (and will) be killed; Creep Tumors are burrowed. So unless they're actually bring detection along, you get a free spotter and patch of Creep.Quote:
Yeah but you're forgetting that that "unit" can't move and it takes forever for it's area of effect to grow. You simply can't get the creep to where you want it fast enough for it to make a difference. By the time you even get it past your expansion you could just have another queen and creep dropping overlords to take care of it instead.
Note the key word: "single". Their ability to self-replicate means that they don't really contend for Queen energy. There might be a place in an early-game build where you sacrifice an SL cycle for a Tumor, but it's only something you do once.
Supply depot isnt a mineral mechanic. Its not supposed to give you more minerals. Its a time mechanic. Thats its saving grace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Unless you build a second line say connecting your base and nat. Or your want a second line going towards your 2nd expansion.Quote:
Building a single Creep Tumor can pay dividends, even with Creep-dropping Overlords. Overlords can (and will) be killed; Creep Tumors are burrowed. So unless they're actually bring detection along, you get a free spotter and patch of Creep.
Note the key word: "single". Their ability to self-replicate means that they don't really contend for Queen energy. There might be a place in an early-game build where you sacrifice an SL cycle for a Tumor, but it's only something you do once.
Each Creep Tumor is a self-generating resource like workers are too minerals. Its benefit only increases as time goes on. id call it exponential but weve had enough argueing over that word to make me never want to use it again :p
Lets try another analogy (since the unit part is holding you up). Focus now on the map control element. Orbital command can make a cloaked bunker that can then make another cloaked bunker etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by TWD
I would kill for Supply Drop for my Pylons. I eat through Psi so friggin fast with CB.