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Since day 1 I have stated my position as affecting high level play, pro gamers with high APM.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
I am not a pro gamer. My argument has never been about people under Platinum league.
Of course, your bias and elitism lets you forget things like that.
And this is were your arguement falls apart. No pro player complains that Spawn Larva is tedious.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
LOL thatsjust win. you need to make a fuss with blizz over thism, ath the official forums.. if they realize queen use is THAT one dimensional & mechanical, they aught to get to work on it!Quote:
Originally Posted by TWD
we're saying its principally wrong that you are favoured by playing a 25 second sound-clip to remind you to do an action that does not involve any profound decision-making.... it doesnt matter if anyone will ever actually master it or not!, the fact that the task of (closing on) mastering it is to such a large extent purely mechanical - when it could be something deeper while also being mechanical!Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
I hate to break it to you but you can do the same thing with making workers etc... :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Todie
Furthermore, It doesnt need to have profound decision making. Where does this idea that every action needs to be this incredibly strategic decision come from? Consider if the Queen had two abilities
Spawn Worker Larva (can only be made into worker)
Spawn Non-worker Larva (can be made into anything but a worker)
Look now you have to choose which one you want to do! See its that choice you wanted but was totally not there before :rolleyes:
Does this make you significantly better player? I'm interested to know!Quote:
Originally Posted by TWD
this would give the queen more tension, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
i agree its a somwhat silly notion, but it gets the job done.
SighQuote:
Originally Posted by Todie
I think that statement more than anything else sums up how incredibly detached from reality the "everything must have choice!" side is.
Well I've only been doing it for a day, and I'm sure your results may vary. For me it has certainly helped. The cooldown on the hatchery is about the same amount of time it takes for the Queen to generate 25 energy. My current goal is to never let that energy get above 40, and I'm doing pretty good so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickR
I changed my sound file from 25 to 28 since I was always a little early. I'm using ctrl+r as the hotkey to trigger play in winamp. Then it's just R, click, ctrl+r.
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i wouldnt prefer it to the current SL; thats jsut butchering SL that in itself works well.
i'd rather see something SL-like added - some new ability that ineracts with hacheries / larvas, like an ability that makes eggs hach faster but at 50% health (regenerating to 100%) and abilities disabled for 30 seconds (to avoid burrow/regen-abuse)
See your conflicted. I gave the queen the same choice you wanted (two different abilities competing with each other). However you still choose the more elegant current version which adds the same choice to gameplay just without two different button icons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todie
no. i'd just prefer a different button icon for anotehr ability of the same type, taht doesnt infact butcher the effects of the current SL
But see thats the point. SL right now is elegant. It doesnt have a problem except for some peoples mindset that every action needs to have profound decision making.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todie
Well this just shows its not actually that mechanical. Its more about focus and remembering to use the macro abilities, or in your case use a timer which is simpler.Quote:
Originally Posted by TWD
So again, its all in people's brain, you don't need 400apm to become a better player, as witnessed by you.
You could either use your brain more or use an tech help in the form of a timer.
Id like to point out that there is already a timer on the queen.
And a timer on the hatchery.
But see that's not how I feel about it at all. When I hear the sound I press the key combination. I don't see how much more mechanical you can get.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickR
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I've personally never really liked SL, as noted by my fairly constant suggestions to replace it with an ability that drops Larva regeneration to 15 seconds (from 20 seconds) for a period of time.
I also rather liked Mutate Larva it was an interesting ability which I feel was dropped rather too quickly.
No, you won't.Quote:
The point he was trying to make is, that if you master the ability (increase you apm, game sense and increase focus) you will find it more enjoyable.
Despite my general distaste for it, my macro has always been better than my micro. And in SC2, that's no different. I can keep SL going, not perfectly, but reasonably well.
This does not make it enjoyable. It does mean I get to win games, but the act of playing is not enjoyable.
Do you honestly think that Blizzard doesn't know what they created? It's doing exactly what they want: creating repetitive skill so that those who don't, won't, or can't use the skill are frozen out of the higher leagues regardless of their other skills.Quote:
if they realize queen use is THAT one dimensional & mechanical, they aught to get to work on it!
Yeah, we wouldn't want strategy in our Real-Time Strategy game :rolleyes:Quote:
It doesnt have a problem except for some peoples mindset that every action needs to have profound decision making.
I don't really understand how that would have worked now...Quote:
Originally Posted by MattII
Unless the mutant larvae were REALLY fast... they'd just wind up serving the same purpose that spawn larvae does now.
It doesn't add the same choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
It still takes time for those Larva to spawn so you are making a choice Before you actually spend the money.
It isn't Elegant, but it works (the 'inelegance' was probably the reason they cut out the mutant larva, it was confusing having multiple different kinds of Larva)
The problem is there is no significant cost to Spawning Larva besides attention. So instead of making it a cost benefit decision, they simply impose a cap (only X Queens/ Hatchery are useful with SL)
The simplest way to remove the problem is to remove the cap and balance it from there (allow Queens to Spawn Larva multiple times simultaneously on the same Hatchery)
This may require that the energy cost go up, the number of Larva go down, the delay go up, etc.
It may also require that Creep Tumor/Transfusion become more worth putting energy into. (speeding up the queen so that she can reasonably be used on the battlefield, increasing the ratio, changing the Creep spreading mechanics/cost)
Mutant larva were mobile; you could put them in Nydus Worms or Overlords. But they also cost food. So you could stockpile them, but you had to pay Overlord costs to do so.Quote:
Unless the mutant larvae were REALLY fast... they'd just wind up serving the same purpose that spawn larvae does now.
Yeah, you could stockpile them like you can with spawn larvae, I mean I guess the idea is you have a variable army anywhere you chose. But that just doesn't strike me as particularly useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Though it'd be much more macro-heavy than spawn larvae is, actually... and if it just worked like spawn larvae, it'd be a lot more versatile than it... and it'd be a bit of a nerf, because you wouldn't be able to just make tons and tons of larvae and then mutate them...
Hrrmm... I'm kinda undecided now...
Well they did drop the morphing time by a bit, and thet could be useful for forward positions where you might want to replenish your forces, but not have a hatchery on site to do so (8 Morphalisks, which is what they were called,could fit in an OL, yet provides 2 OL worth of units). And as Bolas said, they also cost Control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Yeah, but why not just build the units at the hatchery and move them into battle that way?Quote:
Originally Posted by MattII
The only real advantage it provides over spawn larvae is variability. You can change them into anything you like instantly. Rather than spawn larvae which has all the normal build-times.
I kinda like it more now to be honest... it'd give spreading the creep another purpose. Getting your mutant larvae to the front lines so they can instantly morph into whatever units you need.
Ugh, I REALLY like this ability now. Damn it. Stupid APM sinks.
And i can vouch that it is enjoyableQuote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Spawn Larva adds strategy to the game even if its not "push button 1 OR button 2" variety.Quote:
Yeah, we wouldn't want strategy in our Real-Time Strategy game :rolleyes:
You need to seperate action from decision. They are two different things in this game. They can can coincide at times but often dont. For instance your openent has many zealots so you decide to counter with hellions. Thats a decision. You go back to your base and hit the appropriate keys to make 4 hellions. Thats an action. They were not the same thing.
No, it's a decision. How many Hellions to build to counter them? Why not 3 or 5; why did you choose 4? Do you invest in a Reactor to produce them, or are you willing to wait?Quote:
For instance your openent has many zealots so you decide to counter with hellions. Thats a decision. You go back to your base and hit the appropriate keys to make 4 hellions. Thats a action.
How many hellions to make is a decision. Not four decisions. I can decide I want to make 4 hellions 30 seconds before doing the action. I can decide I want to make 4 hellions while moving a marine somewhere on the otherside of my map from my factory. I can decide I want to make 4 hellions before i even start the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
One decision (made at any point in time before the actions)
Four actions (execution/mechanical skills of gameplay)
Every wonder why there is no Shift M = 1 marine for each select barracks?
They didn't bother to put it in? At least not yet.Quote:
Every wonder why there is no Shift M = 1 marine for each select barracks?
There's no reason not to include it otherwise. I mean they obviously aren't against building multiple units at once with the click of a button. That's how it worked for the Zerg in SC1.
They should make it as easy as possible to translate that decision into the game. They should not create FALSE impediments to building hellions. The impediments to building hellions are that you need resources, you need time, you need to build factories. Not that you need to click more. The clicking is just telling the game what you want to do when.
You think they just forgot? Never occured to them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Kind of like how they forget to let players hotkey more than one building SC1 :rolleyes:
I dunno about never occurred to them, but they probably just didn't think it was something that would get all that much use from people.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
They're not excluding stuff solely to make it harder for people to macro...
Again, they probably thought people wouldn't use it. Or it was a limitation of the technology.Quote:
Kind of like how they forget to let players hotkey more than one building SC1 :rolleyes:
There is this misconception that harder is a bad thing. That clicking when there could be a way that requires less clicking is bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
That if Blizzard is making you click when you dont have to then they must have just forgot to "fix" it.
It isn't a misconception. It's a subjective opinion. But honestly, I kind of question why you'd enjoy having less options when playing the game...Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Didn't I just refute that?Quote:
That if Blizzard is making you click when you dont have to then they must have just forgot to "fix" it.
It's not that they forgot. They just didn't bother. It's not that big a deal... it'd be convenient, but it doesn't make a huge difference. Certainly not as much as multiple-building selection versus. single-building selection does.
If anything, clicking once and getting one unit is more intuitive when playing. It's certainly much more stream-lined than quickly having to shift-click away the buildings you don't want producing units.
It is, the issue is if the shortcut would cause more trouble by making the design more complex... as you mentioned they could put in a command that was 'make Hellions 30 sec from now' or 'make Hellions when I have more than 420 minerals'Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
But those would be needlessly complicated and prone to error, when it would be simpler to just let the player click when the Important benchmarks were reached.
Finally your example is a good one
Decision=I want to sacrifice X minerals, Y supply, and Z factory time for 4 Hellions (don't have the stats with me)
Action linked to it=Factory hotkey, hhhh (the action may consist of multiple clicks, but those clicks are all performed 'at once')
The "Spawn Larva" is not a decision.. what are you sacrificing,
Queen energy? (So far that has not proven to be useful for Much of anything else... maybe 1 Creep tumor/game)
Hatchery time? (the only thing spawning larva blocks the hatchery from doing is another Queen Spawn Larva)
If Spawn Larva was stackable, then at least you'd be sacrificing Larva later for Larva now (waiting for a tech building to come out or some overlords)
You would also be making a decision about Which Hatchery to put the Larva on, as opposed to 'the open one' you could put all the larva on your main, your natural or one of your expansions.
Essentially what the current mechanism does is turn the Queen into a Zerg "Reactor"...
it can swap from 1 Hatchery to the next.
it doubles the production rate.
you can only use 1 Queen per Hatchery.
The important differences
1. the Reactor doesn't have an Attack
2. there is no "Hatchery Tech Lab" alternative
3. The reactor doesn't have to be "Reactivated" constantly.. you only have to do something when you swap it to another building.
4. The Reactor helps production of only one group of units at a time (and is limited to very few units)
Compare to the "Protoss Reactor" ie Chronoboost
Swap from 1 Building to the next
Only 1 Chronoboost per building
Increases production rate
only helps with one type of unit/upgrade at a time
Important differences
1. Reactors only cost 50 min 50 gas, a Chronobooster (Nexus) costs 400 minerals
2. there is no "Chronoboost Tech Lab" alternative* unless you count the tech boost
3. The reactor doesn't have to be "Reactivated" constantly.. you only have to do something when you swap it to another building.
4. The Reactor and is limited to very few units, and can't do techs
So the Chronoboost has many of the same problems as the Queen, but
... It is not Spammable, you can't build 1 Nexus for every Production building you willl have
So that chronoboost energy is a scarce resource that needs to be spent strategically.
The Reactor on the other hand has
Reactor v. Tech Lab decision
and
no "Reactivating" necessary, once you build the Reactor, it stays active until you swap it.
Queen energy is not a scarce resource... a Queen only costs 150 minerals... BUT
that is not worthwhile for a Creep Tumor maker/slow moving Healer
it is always worthwhile for a "Hatchery Reactor" so that is what you have, Queens sitting at the Hatchery, only doing that.
Oh yes, I forgot the AI is now playing the game for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by TWD
We just need to press a key and the magic will happen.
This is stupid, Blizzard should remove the AI making the queen put larvae on the closest hatchery.
I already hate the fact, that AI thinks its smarter than me and controlling my units. Too often has my worker or zealot or whatever gone wandering and.or chasing a scv or something.
Well congratulations, congratulations to all who wanted AI to play the game for them, you are now one step closer to just sitting at your chair and watching computers compete instead of you.
Next target: First person shooters. Lets all whine so much that the AI is going to control the movement and shooting for us, it already is correcting the shooting in most FPS console game, so the first step is made, now just follows the easier path to get FPS to play themselfs.
So in a way, we would pay 60 euros to watch movies.
So sign me up for the future of lazy, do nothing, think not. Better watch WALL-E to get ready for our future.
That's not a "misconception"; that's reality. That's the interface deliberately interfering with what the player wants to do.Quote:
There is this misconception that harder is a bad thing. That clicking when there could be a way that requires less clicking is bad.
Would Super Mario Bros be harder if jump was on Select rather than A? Yes. Would it be a better game for that? Of course not. It's too hard to press a direction, run, and jump simultaneously because human beings do not come equipped with three thumbs.
A well-designed interface lubricates the play experience, allowing the player to communicate effectively with the game and translating the player's actions into in-game actions efficiently. A poorly-designed interface does the opposite.
If you want to have the player return to their base frequently in an RTS game, and have a well-designed interface, then the tasks for which they will return to their base frequently for must not be automatable. Spawn Larva is automatable, and therefore it is not a well-designed interface.
To be fair, you are correct. If it is Blizzard's intention to have automatable mechanics that are not properly automated (and thus having a poor interface), then they should make sure that other, actually good parts, of the interface do not allow the player to essentially work around their design goal.Quote:
This is stupid, Blizzard should remove the AI making the queen put larvae on the closest hatchery.
Or you know, it could be poetic justice for Blizzard, who decided to break good game design principles in one area, to have the more intelligent parts of their game defeat the bad game design they shoehorned in.
That happened a lot in SC1. When idling, most units will attack enemy units they see.Quote:
I already hate the fact, that AI thinks its smarter than me and controlling my units. Too often has my worker or zealot or whatever gone wandering and.or chasing a scv or something.
Tell me Nicol. Why does Super Mario Bros not have autojump like zelda? Shouldnt they have fixed this "problem"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Ill tell you why Super Mario doesnt have autojump. Because the player manually jumping IS the game. In the same way Starcraft is a game of timing challenges. Manualy managing Spawn Larva IS the game.
Im sorry but can someone please put this in there sig :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
I'm sure you lucky Beta people have already explored this, but there really isn't something similar to what was mentioned in the post below? - Can you choose SL and then apply it to a (hotkeyed) building in the command card? Sorry, have not played yet, but it just seems that this would have been addressed.
http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3003
No, but see, that's the thing. In a mario game, the jumping and moving is what the player wants to tell Mario to do. Everything in-between the player deciding to jump and the jumping itself should be as stream-lined and easy as possible. So it's FUN and not cumbersome. So the buttons are easy to press and memorize. Figuring out the controller is a very quick, brief part of the actual game.Quote:
Ill tell you why Super Mario doesnt have autojump. Because the player manually jumping IS the game. In the same way Starcraft is a game of timing challenges.
Now, if you want another example, take the Adventure game genre. When they switched from Text Parser to the Icon interface. Some people complained that the icon interface didn't give them as many options and choices as the text parser did.
When Jane Jensen took the icon interface and made it more multifaceted. So that you had more icons and could do more different things (i.e. instead of just an 'action' icon, there was an individual icon for push, pick-up, use and open.) And those people who didn't like the change, liked this. They weren't complaining that they didn't have to type out every command. They were complaining that they didn't have as many options in the game world as they did before.
Same thing is happening here. The interface got more streamlined and easy, but people complain that it takes the decision-making out of base management. Right now, Blizzard is trying to make the interface more intuitive for base management. Not trying to eat up the TIME it takes for somebody to manage their base, actually make it so that you need to make decisions and choices related to their base.
Spawn larvae doesn't do that. Orbital Command does. Chrono-boost does. The Queen even does to a certain extent. But Spawn Larvae does not.
Except you're not 'managing' spawn larvae. There's next to nothing TO manage. And I'm saying this as somebody who LIKES the Queen.Quote:
Manualy managing Spawn Larva IS the game.
Honestly, thinking about it, Mutate Larvae was a way better ability. In theory anyway. And it actually probably took more APM than spawn larvae does. (Can't use the 'select larvae' thing to select them, seeing as how they're units separate from the hatchery itself.)
Because it doesn't make sense. Where and when to jump isn't just the difference between life and death. It's how you go from one path to another. How would auto jump know that you wanted to jump up to that platform? How would auto jump know that you wanted to fly up and explore one area over another?Quote:
Tell me Nicol. Why does Super Mario Bros not have autojump like zelda? Shouldnt they have fixed this "problem"?
In short: it isn't automated because it can't be. Because automating it removes meaningful choice from the game.
That's not a game; that's pressing a button every X seconds. Simon has more right to be called a a game than that.Quote:
Manualy managing Spawn Larva IS the game.
It absolutly is a game. Its a timing challenge. Tell me have you ever played a game called multitask?
i just might... though i like my current sig, this is just so truthful!Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
this. thank you.. i felt teh need to verbalize these thoughts recently, but failed to muster the effort.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas