Theorycraft about BattleCruisers weapon refit.

Well guys, I've had the privilege to play the Beta thanks to a friend who happened to have it.

I was very disappointed Battlecruiser's weapon refit was not there! Even tough I didn't like the way it worked too much either!
I've come up with an idea about how Battlecruiser's weapon refit could work I hope you guys like it:

(To use both) You must research both Yamato Gun and Defensive Matrix at the Fusion Core.
(Yet if you research only one, you'll be able to use that one only.)
Here's where it becomes interesting:

All Battlecruisers can use both (If both are researched) but not at the same time: I.E. They can't cast Yamato Gun if Defensive matrix was used and viceversa due to both
A.-Energy costs
and
B.-Cooldown. (To be fair I would consider a time of 35 since Def Matrix lasts 20 accordingly to starcraft.wikia)

Whenever the Battlecruiser uses any spell, it's systems enters in cool down thus being unable to cast any spell in that time lapse. (I.E. both buttons for Yamato and Matrix go into cooldown and can't be used)
With this you won't have to upgrade each Battlecruiser and condemn them to be used either for Yamato or Matrix forever. Instead you'll be able to choose which spell to use when in combat, and you will have to quickly make a good decision about which spell is better to use in each case...


http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__..._SC2_Game2.jpg

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__..._SC2_Rend1.jpg

Images taken as sample from starcraft.wikia.com.

This creates tension between both spells and decision making must be wise for each BC on each situation without making them OP nor too situational.

They should give multiple spell choices to the Mothership. God that unit needs something.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

They should give multiple spell choices to the Mothership. God that unit needs something.

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That wouldn't be very Protoss of it...

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

That wouldn't be very Protoss of it...

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Depends how its done. Obviously not the same way the Terran Refit version is.


For instance you could have three different "modes" (like warp-in mode)
1) Super arbitor: Cloak, Recall
2) Support: Vortex, maybe buff, heal or energy ability
3) Assualt: Planet Cracker, Wormhole Transit

The Mothership is another problem... very grave indeed.
EDIT
Sounds interesting Archer, but on topic, what do you guys think? I wish I could raise this as a petition to Blizzard itself. Like posting on Blizzforums, but I can't.

On the one hand I felt it made BCs overpowered, a sort of one-unit-army to answer all situations. At the same time I miss it because it allowed greater customization of my units. It's a feature I'd like to see more widely used.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

On the one hand I felt it made BCs overpowered, a sort of one-unit-army to answer all situations. At the same time I miss it because it allowed greater customization of my units. It's a feature I'd like to see more widely used.

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But that's the point of my version! it's meant not to be OverPowered!
I mean, if you can't cast both in the same battle but can use it on another battle... I mean if that BC lives another day... besides of being reasonably high cost to upgrade both and use both due to M&G costs for upgrade and energy costs for use, adding the cooldown is the cherry on the cake to have enough numbers to balance. Besides, my version removes the Missile Barrage since I think it would be more useful in the Thor instead of the strange GtG only skill it has (I'm talking about those back cannons, wasn't the Thor the main GtA terran unit? then shouldnt they have the Missile Barrage as GtA AoE Spell?).

The spells already have an energy cost, giving them a cooldown as well would be overkill.

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Originally Posted by milo

The spells already have an energy cost, giving them a cooldown as well would be overkill.

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You don't seem to get it. the "coupled" cooldown is meant to give tension between both skills. it's a small time just in case the BC has lots of energy to prevent it from casting both skills at the same time!
I mean, that was the reason to have separated Battlecruisers that couldn't cast anything else but their specialized weapon but it was ugly.
With this proposition, you won't have to specialize each BC. Instead you'll have to use it accordingly to the situation as if they were "specialized" but they're a lot more flexible!
Quick and good decision making is of the essence here instead of "I have 3 kinds of Battlecruisers, one for the Yamato, other for the Matrix, etc."
With this I have a kind of Battlecruiser that can use only one of those skills on each battle, but it's not condemned to be so forever. Instead it can be used for another skill the next battle!

But Yamato currently costs 125 energy, and traditionally D Matrix costs 100. The max unit energy in SC2 is 200 (there's no +50 upgrades). You will never have enough energy to cast both at once.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

On the one hand I felt it made BCs overpowered, a sort of one-unit-army to answer all situations. At the same time I miss it because it allowed greater customization of my units. It's a feature I'd like to see more widely used.

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overpowered ??? are you trying to make a joke? cuz it's not funny...Their very cost and time to build LIMITS their uses,because for the cost you invest you can get 5 times the firepower of one BC,plus they have unlimited counters(rays,corruptors,vikings,hydras,stalkers,m otherships,turrets,thors...),The ONLY way to make them usefull is to make him a SUPPORT unit(like the MS) As for the weapon refit,i think they should scrap the seeker missile,make the yamato deal splash damage-both more realistic and usefull(300target,150 near target,75further away,or something like that) And give the raven an other defensive ability(probably some shield spell or magnetic mine...)

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Originally Posted by milo

But Yamato currently costs 125 energy, and traditionally D Matrix costs 100. The max unit energy in SC2 is 200 (there's no +50 upgrades). You will never have enough energy to cast both at once.

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Cooldown could be there or be removed, it's irrelevant. Yet I consider it practical to have it there just in case the energy costs for the matrix are changed or the time it takes to fade increases or the time it takes to recharge the energy is enough to cast the yamato just while the matrix is still there, which is what we don't want.

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Originally Posted by arthas

As for the weapon refit,i think they should scrap the seeker missile,make the yamato deal splash damage-both more realistic and usefull(300target,150 near target,75further away,or something like that) And give the raven an other defensive ability(probably some shield spell or magnetic mine...)

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About Yamato having splash, I also thought about it. I guess since we're removing the 3rd skill (the missile barrage which did AtA splash damage) Yamato could very well get some splash damage... in a special way it doesn't overlap with Siege Tanks: I.E. since the yamato is very concentrated, the splash damage would be to a very small radius only.

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Originally Posted by Josue

irrelevant. in a special way it doesn't overlap with Siege Tanks: I.E. since the yamato is very concentrated, the splash damage would be to a very small radius only.

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Well what about the seeker missile? The blast radius is immense,and ravens are much easy to mass then the BC,Siege tanks can't by overlapped by a skill that costs 150 energy and takes at least 20 minutes of gameplay to bring out and not counting the time to bring the bc's out,i mentioned support ship,that means that having 1-2 or two can really help you in battle and provide air support for the M&M&M or Tanks/hellions,That's what i meant,even if they get focused fired from their counters they would serve their purpose and all those resources and time will pay off ;)

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Originally Posted by Josue

Besides, my version removes the Missile Barrage since I think it would be more useful in the Thor instead of the strange GtG only skill it has (I'm talking about those back cannons, wasn't the Thor the main GtA terran unit? then shouldnt they have the Missile Barrage as GtA AoE Spell?).

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Love the idea. This way the coul bring back the old "new" Thor model with those HUGE missile bays in the shoulders. Now THAT is the terran´s ultimate assault mech

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Originally Posted by arthas

Well what about the seeker missile? The blast radius is immense,and ravens are much easy to mass then the BC,Siege tanks can't by overlapped by a skill that costs 150 energy and takes at least 20 minutes of gameplay to bring out and not counting the time to bring the bc's out,i mentioned support ship,that means that having 1-2 or two can really help you in battle and provide air support for the M&M&M or Tanks/hellions,That's what i meant,even if they get focused fired from their counters they would serve their purpose and all those resources and time will pay off ;)

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About the seeker missile... I'm not really sure, I thought it was replacing the irradiate ability...

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Originally Posted by StrongCoffee

Love the idea. This way the coul bring back the old "new" Thor model with those HUGE missile bays in the shoulders. Now THAT is the terran´s ultimate assault mech

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I think they could add those mega shoulders to the current model which I think is way better than any of the old ones since it's body isn't a wall box. and has better proportions. And they could appear only if the upgrade was done :cool:

Would it Be OP if we replaced Missile Barrage with Detection of say, range 6, but you could extend it (50 energy, +3/second) out to range 10 or 11?

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Originally Posted by MattII

Would it Be OP if we replaced Missile Barrage with Detection of say, range 6, but you could extend it (50 energy, +3/second) out to range 10 or 11?

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Sorry but I don't get your point sir. What has detection to do here?

Because it means you wouldn't have to fly your Ravens into danger to provide detection.

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Originally Posted by MattII

Because it means you wouldn't have to fly your Ravens into danger to provide detection.

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What's the logic behind? Is it to say this is Over Powered?
Currently I don't think anything should be added. There's good tension between Defensive Matrix and Yamato Gun IMHO, that's why Missile Barrage was removed from it, so it could be added to the Thor.

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Currently I don't think anything should be added. There's good tension between Defensive Matrix and Yamato Gun IMHO, that's why Missile Barrage was removed from it, so it could be added to the Thor.

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Um, they removed DMatrix as well you know.

I think I misunderstood you, I thought you were talking about bringing back the Old weapons Refit, but as it turns out, you want to turn the BC into just another expensive caster.

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Originally Posted by MattII

Um, they removed DMatrix as well you know.

I think I misunderstood you, I thought you were talking about bringing back the Old weapons Refit, but as it turns out, you want to turn the BC into just another expensive caster.

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Not exactly. I want to somehow bring back the weapons refit but only having Yamato Gun and Defensive Matrix, making them both available at the same time for a BC, but be able to use only one at a given battle, thus it's not precisely a caster unit which can spam spells. Even tough it has 2 skills, they can't be used at the same time, there's tension and decision making between them since you must choose which one to use since one is defensive and the other one is offensive.

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Originally Posted by MattII

I think I misunderstood you, I thought you were talking about bringing back the Old weapons Refit, but as it turns out, you want to turn the BC into just another expensive caster.

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I don't recall terran having any 'expensive casters', And better usefull in few numbers then useless in general...

I think it would be cool if you could upgrade BCs to be able to attack more than one target at once.

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Originally Posted by n00bonicPlague

I think it would be cool if you could upgrade BCs to be able to attack more than one target at once.

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And they should also be able to fire nukes , am i right :D

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Originally Posted by n00bonicPlague

I think it would be cool if you could upgrade BCs to be able to attack more than one target at once.

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lol, that sounds so random to me... No comments about the Defensive Matrix and Yamato Gun? With this we get rid of the Missile barrage and we can even give it to the Thor instead of the strange GtG skill it has! Yamato could even get splash damage back!

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Originally Posted by Perfecttear

And they should also be able to fire nukes , am i right :D

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Lol there was a Star Craft Mod in which a terran capital ship named Hercules could do so. (I think it was a StarShip Troopers ship, I don't remember the name of the Mod tough)
Yet, seriously guys, on topic, what do you say about the idea?

What exactly is the point of weapons refit? How exactly does that make the battle cruiser fulfill its role better, fulfill a different, highly needed role, or causes the meta-game to shift towards a positive direction?

The answer is it doesn't.

BC: Big, absurdly expensive unit that kills things very fast

BC Big, absurdly expensive unit that kills things very fast. Or has a shield and kills things slightly slower.


uh...ok.

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Originally Posted by newcomplex

What exactly is the point of weapons refit? How exactly does that make the battle cruiser fulfill its role better, fulfill a different, highly needed role, or causes the meta-game to shift towards a positive direction?

The answer is it doesn't.

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How come that having some more options: another skill with good tension with the original one and decision making involved doesn't add anything to the gameplay?

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Originally Posted by newcomplex

BC: Big, absurdly expensive unit that kills things very fast

BC Big, absurdly expensive unit that kills things very fast. Or has a shield and kills things slightly slower.


uh...ok.

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I guess you just hate BCs: with or without anything changed or not you think BCs are just
"Big, absurdly expensive unit that kills things"

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Originally Posted by Josue

How come that having some more options: another skill with good tension with the original one and decision making involved doesn't add anything to the gameplay?



I guess you just hate BCs: with or without anything changed or not you think BCs are just
"Big, absurdly expensive unit that kills things"

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You act like as if its a hard decision. If your opponents massing air, and I don't understand why he would be, you get ata missles. Otherwise, get ground. If hes making carriers and motherships or other BC, get yamato canon.

We could add weapons refit on any unit in the game. That doesn't mean we should. Adding abilities should enhance the unit in some way, not just "make it cooler".

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Originally Posted by Perfecttear

And they should also be able to fire nukes , am i right :D

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Well, in a way they already do......

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Originally Posted by newcomplex

You act like as if its a hard decision. If your opponents massing air, and I don't understand why he would be, you get ata missles. Otherwise, get ground. If hes making carriers and motherships or other BC, get yamato canon.

The same could be said with almost any unit in the game.

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So you mean everything's pointless?
A decision is a decision, you choose to either calldown MULE or use the extra supply depots. BC's wont get missiles anymore, I think those could go for Thor instead. Imagine you have some BC's and you're outnumbered by vikings, which one you choose, Yamato or defensive matrix? What if you are preparing an ambush?

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Originally Posted by n00bonicPlague

Well, in a way they already do......

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If you're talking about the Yamato cannon then that's true since it's supposed to be a concentrated nuclear blast. That's why I think it could take an advantage and have a special splash damage too.

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Originally Posted by newcomplex

What exactly is the point of weapons refit? How exactly does that make the battle cruiser fulfill its role better, fulfill a different, highly needed role, or causes the meta-game to shift towards a positive direction?

The answer is it doesn't.

BC: Big, absurdly expensive unit that kills things very fast

BC Big, absurdly expensive unit that kills things very fast. Or has a shield and kills things slightly slower.


uh...ok.

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It's a different way of balancing the unit. Protoss have always been more straight-forward at micro than Terrans... Zealots attack-move whereas Marines focus-fire, and so on. How does one keep Carriers alive? You do so by kiting from full range. How does one keep Battlecruisers alive? You (hypothetically, as proposed by this thread) save up the energy for a Def. Matrix and use it the moment Vikings or Corruptors begin to focus-fire that particular BC. Activated abilities are very Terran, so the distinction would be true to both races.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

They should give multiple spell choices to the Mothership. God that unit needs something.

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I agree. If it's supposed to be a super-unit, why does it need to be limited to about 3 spells? There are a lot of slots left in the UI, and Energy limits what you can cast anyways. Why cannot it do everything that the Arbiter did and more?

For example: since it does cast a cloaking field, why not cast a power field at the same time? Doesn't really change much, but you can use it as a good target for Warp-in.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

It's a different way of balancing the unit. Protoss have always been more straight-forward at micro than Terrans... Zealots attack-move whereas Marines focus-fire, and so on. How does one keep Carriers alive? You do so by kiting from full range. How does one keep Battlecruisers alive? You (hypothetically, as proposed by this thread) save up the energy for a Def. Matrix and use it the moment Vikings or Corruptors begin to focus-fire that particular BC. Activated abilities are very Terran, so the distinction would be true to both races.

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In fact, the BC is sort of an air damage soaker. Vikings don't last long, but if it's an Viking+BC army, you can attack with your Vikings from completely out of range, while the BCs take the hits. That's in theory, anyways :)

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

It's a different way of balancing the unit. Protoss have always been more straight-forward at micro than Terrans... Zealots attack-move whereas Marines focus-fire, and so on. How does one keep Carriers alive? You do so by kiting from full range. How does one keep Battlecruisers alive? You (hypothetically, as proposed by this thread) save up the energy for a Def. Matrix and use it the moment Vikings or Corruptors begin to focus-fire that particular BC. Activated abilities are very Terran, so the distinction would be true to both races.

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So true, man thanks for pointing this, so my example could go further.
Let's imagine this situation:
You have some BC's and you're outnumbered by vikings, which one you choose, Yamato or defensive matrix? If you wisely saved up the energy for the Defensive Matrix your BC's could survive the onslaught with at least enough units to be worthy. Otherwise you'll loose the entire BC army, but you already had used the yamato cannon to destroy several buildings before the vikings appeared.

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

I agree. If it's supposed to be a super-unit, why does it need to be limited to 3 spells? There are a lot of slots left in the UI, and Energy limits what you can cast anyways. Why cannot it do everything that the Arbiter did and more?

For example: since it does cast a cloaking field, why not cast a power field at the same time? Doesn't really change much, but you can use it as a good target for Warp-in.

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Well, currently I'm just adding the Defensive Matrix. You know it's not like a caster unit, with lots of spells to spam while having enough energy.
You could solely use one of this two spells since only one would leave it without energy. I think Missile Barrage should go for the Thor instead of the strange skill it has.

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Originally Posted by Josue

So you mean everything's pointless?
A decision is a decision, you choose to either calldown MULE or use the extra supply depots. BC's wont get missiles anymore, I think those could go for Thor instead. Imagine you have some BC's and you're outnumbered by vikings, which one you choose, Yamato or defensive matrix? What if you are preparing an ambush?



If you're talking about the Yamato cannon then that's true since it's supposed to be a concentrated nuclear blast. That's why I think it could take an advantage and have a special splash damage too.

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And we could add choices on every single unit when making them if choices are inherently good. I'm saying pointless gimmicks are pointless. What change does over complicating BC accomplish other then I have to think for like half a second when making them? You need a better reason then MORE CHOICES. We could add any amount of choices in any point of the game without any effort. The choice in question has to be conducive towards a overall point, which this lacks entirely.

Macro mechanics are a choices thats good because the way the choice is implemented requires you to return to base and macro, hence, macro mechanics. They serve a point, they have a role.

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Originally Posted by newcomplex

And we could add choices on every single unit when making them if choices are inherently good. I'm saying pointless gimmicks are pointless. What change does over complicating BC accomplish other then I have to think for like half a second when making them? You need a better reason then MORE CHOICES. We could add any amount of choices in any point of the game without any effort. The choice in question has to be conducive towards a overall point, which this lacks entirely.

Macro mechanics are a choices thats good because the way the choice is implemented requires you to return to base and macro, hence, macro mechanics. They serve a point, they have a role.

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No reason is good enough for you huh? You don't seem to have read pure.Wasted's point about it nor my other posts and you're still looking for reasons? go read the entire thread and tell me what is a good reason for anything to exist! If Blizzard was to implement this in their strange "specialization weapon refit" way, they must have had a reason wouldn't they? Now I'm improving it to be more flexible, to make a BC less boring, to make it be capable of handling more situations just depending on what the player wants to do... and there's lots of situations you could use it, lots of reasons for it! it makes gameplay rich, more fun, better, what more could you possibly ask for?

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Originally Posted by newcomplex

And we could add choices on every single unit when making them if choices are inherently good. I'm saying pointless gimmicks are pointless. What change does over complicating BC accomplish other then I have to think for like half a second when making them? You need a better reason then MORE CHOICES. We could add any amount of choices in any point of the game without any effort. The choice in question has to be conducive towards a overall point, which this lacks entirely.

Macro mechanics are a choices thats good because the way the choice is implemented requires you to return to base and macro, hence, macro mechanics. They serve a point, they have a role.

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and again talking complete nonsense ! Can you tell me again what is the BC's current role???? The whole point is they are too costly,move slow,and have dozens of counters that beat the BC not just cost for cost but maybe 3:1 for cost ! is this balance? And we are not even talking here about the complete underusedness of them...And 'air damage soaker' i mean who came up i that??? do you realise that 3 vikings or rays take a bc faster then you can count to 5?...what they need is support abilites!!! So even if you get 1 out they can help your other units win the battle,not be taken out the first 5 seconds and loose all that time and res...and in the end you get steamrolled

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

It's a different way of balancing the unit. Protoss have always been more straight-forward at micro than Terrans... Zealots attack-move whereas Marines focus-fire, and so on. How does one keep Carriers alive? You do so by kiting from full range. How does one keep Battlecruisers alive? You (hypothetically, as proposed by this thread) save up the energy for a Def. Matrix and use it the moment Vikings or Corruptors begin to focus-fire that particular BC. Activated abilities are very Terran, so the distinction would be true to both races.

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Well, in terms of balancing units in accordance with racial identity, giving a battlecruiser more then one, singular purpose unilateral spell would weaken the identity of the capital ship. Yamato canons are so late game and situational that theirs a great deal of confliction anyway just in the single decision to research the spell. The fact that you need upgrades on such a late game unit in SC2 already gives a fair deal of confliction.

By adding two spells, you create the problem of worsening this deliemna to a point where one is simply researched and the other is simply ignored. Also, the BC acts as a middle ground between Carriers (unilateral function, no spell) and motherships (multi-lateral function, 3 abilities), possessing a mostly unilateral function with a spell to support it, so its already very distinctive.

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Originally Posted by newcomplex

By adding two spells, you create the problem of worsening this deliemna to a point where one is simply researched and the other is simply ignored.

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Then allow the same upgrade to unlock both. Or allow one of the two abilities to come standard.

There's a reason Carriers come with 4 Interceptors equipped: so they don't suck completely right out of the gate. The same logic could -- SHOULD -- be applied to Battlecruisers.

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Also, the BC acts as a middle ground between Carriers (unilateral function, no spell) and motherships (multi-lateral function, 3 abilities), possessing a mostly unilateral function with a spell to support it, so its already very distinctive.

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A unit isn't "very distinctive" for falling in the middle of two extremes. Terrans are the race defined by choices (Siege Tank modes, Viking modes) and activated abilities in general (Vultures had Spider Mines -- Hydras and Dragoons had nothing; etc). The Battlecruiser having one isn't very distinctive at all for such a late-game unit. Especially when that one requires an upgrade and is only occasionally available, to boot.

Consider also: the Carrier's ability to deal damage is most often taken advantage of by kiting -- the Carrier ends up taking no damage itself. The BC, which has only 100 more HP than the Carrier (none of which comes back by itself), has no way to kite due to the way its attack and range work. A defensive ability such as Def. Matrix is not random or arbitrary. It's reasonable, and sound unit design.

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Originally Posted by arthas

and again talking complete nonsense !

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......the irony is tangible.

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Can you tell me again what is the BC's current role???? The whole point is they are too costly,move slow,and have dozens of counters that beat the BC not just cost for cost but maybe 3:1 for cost ! is this balance? And we are not even talking here about the complete underusedness of them...And 'air damage soaker' i mean who came up i that??? do you realise that 3 vikings or rays take a bc faster then you can count to 5?...what they need is support abilites!!!

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The BC has several roles, primarily against PvT lategame, as the protoss have very counters to it (It actually beats both the stalker and the void ray cost for cost, by a large margin with yamato cannons). Its other niche role is in preventing lategame zerg from transitioning into heavier units against Hunter Seeker missles, as the only cost counter to BC is hydralisks (Vikings+BC mow down corruptors)

I admit its a niche role, but SC capital ships are suppose to maintain a niche role. In terms of cost effectiveness, their are very few units that can match it, but it has enormous infrastructure costs to produce at a reasonable speed.

Moreso, how the hell does giving a BC 100 sheilds instead of their Yamato canon make its role anymore distinct? It can only make it less distinct. Sounds like you just want to see a buff.

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Originally Posted by newcomplex

I admit its a niche role, but SC capital ships are suppose to maintain a niche role.

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Niche roles are what leads to things like Firebats. The unit we cut from the game at first opportunity because of how much it sucked.

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Moreso, how the fuck does giving a BC 100 sheilds instead of their Yamato canon make its role anymore distinct? It can only make it less distinct. Sounds like you just want to see a buff.

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It allows them to stay relevant in large armies with plenty of AtA using a distinctly Terran method -- micro with an activated ability. The moment a group of Vikings/Corruptors/Void Rays begins to focus fire, you pop Defensive Matrix and nullify all incoming damage. If he doesn't re-focus, his units are doing diddly-squat.