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FUCK.
This build is driving me nuts! I have no effective way to counter it.
I need Robo to gets Obs for scouting, and Immortals to counter Roaches. But I also need Templar or Phoenix to counter Mutas. Stalkers just aren't cutting it, they're too slow to catch Mutas raiding me, even with Blink. There's just no way to tech both paths fast enough while making sure I can ward off an early attack.
I need advice, it's crushing my soul.
I'm with you on this. :(
I imagine you could build a single gate with sentries and block use forcefield to block roaches, then tech to fenix. After you get 4-5, tech to immortals and observers.
Sentries should be able to hold roaches untill he gets a lair and moves them while burrowed. Either you get a fast observer or a cannon, for prevention. Getting a cannon would allow you to upgrade shields, but the observer would allow you to scout in the mid game.
I you tech to fenix first you can go around scouting, picking up roaches and attacking mutalisks. Immortals should be after, or else you will be defenceless against mutas.
This tactic might also be used to harras zergs so its also an agressive build.
My sole speculations though...
Are you even playing beta Blade? Sentries are 100 gas a pop. There is NO WAY to get enough for a constant FF without a very quick expo, which is also suicide.
Nope, I'm not in beta.
Stalkers beat Mutalisks. If you have mass Stalkers + Sentries with Guardian shield, you should beat MutaRoach. If you don't, then the other player is already way ahead of you. If he's harassing you, then attack his base for a change. Chrono boost one or two Immortals into your army to basically destroy every Roach he has.
Watch the last replay of HDstarcraft in youtube...Im sure it holds many answers...Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
Unfortunately, the Zerglings that Mutalisks are paired will will eat your Stalkers alive. And if you add enough Zealots to deal with that, then you don't have enough Stalkers to take on his Mutalisks.Quote:
Stalkers beat Mutalisks.
Did you miss the "too gas heavy" part?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Thank you. I know you're a Zerg player, so your insight is invaluable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
It's the general consensus that Protoss AA needs a buff.
You know, I'm normally against bringing back old SC1 units, but I would gladly scrap the Phoenix and bring back the cheap, quick Corsair right now.
the whole ZvP matchup is kind of messed up right now. if you bring back the corsair, or make an easy way for protoss to deal with air, then they really have nothing. hydras get killed by colossi/speedlots, lings get raped by lots as well, banelings arent very cost effective vs protoss...
it's kind of the same thing with EMP and tvp. with it, the match is sort of one-sided; without it, p has a huge advantage.
DS - why don't you post a replay so that we can give you actual advice instead of just saying "you're only losing because PvZ is unbalanced".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BidpQEISek Look at this video if you didn't already. I think it shows something vs. Muta/Roaches, but also I can't tell you is it really that effective counter when Zerg made a lot of mistakes.
There are a few options that I use to handle this. It's part of my typical build, I'm under the assumption that it's 1v1.
- Build 1 zealot and go right into sentry. While you say "it's 100 gas a pop" it's also "50 minerals a pop". I typically do a 3 gate build against zerg. Here's how my macro mentality happens:
If I have 100 gas, I build 2 stalkers and a zealot.
If I have 150 gas, I go sentry/stalker/zealot
If I have 200 gas, I go sentry/stalker/stalker or sentry/sentry/zealot. (depends on my current mix)
The majority of the time I have 200 gas as I don't really tech higher until after the initial roach push. See my notes below regarding macro per 42 time units.
You WILL have enough minerals because sentries are VERY mineral light. The idea is that the gas helps you decide at the moment what to build. Make at least 2 units that involve the best use of your gas, then use the remaining one for a zealot. When you get 5-6 sentries. Depending on their build, if they do the PURE roach, I don't even build extra zealots and just pump stalker/sentry. The reason is, pushing them back with force fields actually screws the zealots, so they're wasted minerals. I'd rather use the minerals to get early prep for mutas.
As you go heavy sentry, you use less minerals. This allows you to easily pump your probes without worry. Goto full saturation off the bat and don't oversaturate against a zerg. It won't be hard to do as you'll be using less minerals initially with your sentries. This will allow you to do a few things.
If they do double expansion, use the extra minerals to counter expand and get 2 pylons/4 cannons in both bases to hold the mutas at bay until you get there with your stalker/sentry heavy army. That or counter depending on how you do. If you want something to soak damage, like zealots, just research hallucination and before you run in, click CSCSCSCS and boom, 8 fake stalkers to take the hits. (I typically have 6-7 sentries against zerg.) Guardian shield and smart force fields will come with practice, but if you don't have zealots, you'll find them WAY more efficient than they used to be.
Also, upgrade armor first, it benefits guardian shield very well.
Even if you stick with 1 base builds... You can easily make the right army.
The build time of a stalker or sentry or immortal is 42 time units. In 42 time units on an efficiently saturated base (16min, 6gas) you get between 200 and 205 gas and 620-625 minerals. That's enough to go 1 immortal/2stalker/1pylon every 42 time units... or 1 sentry/2stalker + Cannons/pylons every 42 units. The flexibility is VERY good, don't be intimidated by the 100 gas, it helps you forget about the 50 minerals which can turn out to be more useful in the long run as anti-harrassment.
This is more what I needed. Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gifted
Since most zergs open roaches I usally immortal push them and win straight off, people "think" they can survive with roaches and a few stray lings and they are wrong!
Or Sometimes I just open phoenix with a few cannons at my natural to stop early roaches while securing my expand - Phoenix do beat mutas, you just need enough - I usually rush to get 3 then pop into there base right when they hit lair and kill there queen and several overlords all while teching up to w/e I feel is necessary - after they see that im clearly taking control of the air they rarely try to get mutas.
The issue is, almost nothing beats hive roaches zealots and storm? nope Zealots and colossi? Nope You really need immortals/zealots/and maybe some storm to dent there roaches.
And because there cheap on gas its really hard to do anything late game - they can tech up to brood lords, since there at hive anyway and attack you with Roach/Hydra/Brood lord - and your only really on 2 bases at this point. Thats the strongest anti ground army in the game, I really dont have a answer for it atm.
I think the protoss can get a decent mid game push to cripple the zerg, I have a mid game push with the phoniex build that usally takes out there 3rd base but after that I fall short. And the immortal build really punishes them for opening roaches they cannot touch you for awhile leaving you to take your natural if you see they have enough units to stop your rush. You can take advanatge of this by getting a early OBS after your immortals and just counter what there getting while taking map control and hopefully your third base.
PvZ is hard right now - PvT is pretty hard too actually haha
Though there are things that are hard for the zerg as well.
Squid, hi. Have you considered using Phoenix as a scout? =)
What part of "its suicide to try teching both Robo and Stargate" didn't you get?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kknewkles
Gifted saving the day.
Either way I must say that the challenge is imba. Since it takes less effort for the zerg to do this build than for the Protoss to defend against it.
In my mind, two players with the same level of skill and APM, the Zerg would win with this strat.
You need to cannon up, Dsquid. You can't rely purely on Stalkers/Sentries to hold off Mutalisks.
Think like Terrans do in BW - Cannons are basically there not to stop a Mutalisk attack cold, but to hold them off until your ground force can get there.
Why this doesn't surprise me? The Muta was a pain in the ass to balance the first time, because they have the same air and ground attack, and the Roach needs very specific counters.
Really, the Roach is too cheap. For 75m 25g 1 supply, you get 145hp 2 armor 16 attack + fast regen while burrowed. One doesn't needs to be a genius to notice it's freaking OP for cost.
Hold them off for 5 seconds while they focus fire my Pylons in a ball? Good plan :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by GRUNT
Well, if you are building four cannons on the field where only one Pylon "works" than you are doing it wrong... Even if you have two Pylons, and Zerg decide to destroy those Pylons with Mutas, he will lose more than 3 Mutas, and 3 Mutas for 2 Pylons is good trade, especially if you can come to support those cannons on time. And even if you can't, he will lose much more that you do + you need just to make those Pylons for Cannons to work again anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
That would only be acceptable if I can have Scourge back with SC2-level AI. If the Protoss can guarantee air superiority with 400 gas, then I want to be able to swat that air superiority with a similar cost.Quote:
You know, I'm normally against bringing back old SC1 units, but I would gladly scrap the Phoenix and bring back the cheap, quick Corsair right now.
That can't attack air and has so little range that you can't even line 3 of them up and hit the same target. There is a very hard limit on the number of Roaches, beyond which they become ineffective.Quote:
Really, the Roach is too cheap. For 75m 25g 1 supply, you get 145hp 2 armor 16 attack + fast regen while burrowed. One doesn't needs to be a genius to notice it's freaking OP for cost.
Oh, and to get that "fast regen while burrowed," the unit must become immobile. Oh, and you have to tech to Lair and get a 100/100/100 upgrade. If you want them to be able to move (and thus be useful), you have to get a 150/150/100 upgrade on top of that.
So let's count. To make your 75/25/1 unit actually a real threat, you must:
1: Spend 150/100 on a Lair.
2: After the Lair, get a 100/100/100 upgrade.
3: After the Lair, get a 150/150/100 upgrade.
4: Use burrow micro, so no more A-moving.
Yeah, that's a really overpowered unit :rolleyes:
What does your opponent have? 12 Mutalisks? The Cannons are there to stop a raiding force, not to kill mass mutalisks.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
And if your opponent has 12 Mutalisks in the first place, you haven't been playing right. If he's Roach-heavy, there's no reason why you can't have a decent number of Stalkers/Sentries by the time his first Mutas come out. You basically need to push out and catch him in transition. I think that as a decent indicator of timing, you push out as soon as you get your first Immortal.
You keep saying that 'you know how to play the game, but you dont have the skill to pull off what needs to be done'. Well, are you saying that this time, or are you saying that MutaRoach is overpowered and can't be stopped no matter what you do? Because that really sounds like what you're saying. Give us some replays so that we can actually give you better advice. It's easy for you to roll your eyes when I suggest cannons in your base, but you of all people should be able to see the faults in your own playing and you just seem so unwilling to admit that your loss could just be because of your own fault.
I haven't had a loss where I looked at the replay and said: "nope, I played as good as I could have - this enemy build is OP." That's why I've never actually complained about a particular build being too powerful and why I've never made such a post with an attached replay. Because I can always see where I went wrong and so can you guys if you were to see replays of my losses. I know that it's easy to look back on your mistakes with hindsight, but the more you play, the less likely you are to make those mistakes again, and your gamesense improves over time.
If you're not going to give us some replays so that we can give you more specific advice, then don't disrespectfully laugh off advice which is given to you in sincerity.
It's great that Gifted basically tells you to make more Sentries and this is your response instead of "Did you miss the "too gas heavy" part?". :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
No, Gifted gave out a specific build order with various transition points and timings. That's a far cry from a general "make more Sentries" post.Quote:
It's great that Gifted basically tells you to make more Sentries and this is your response instead of "Did you miss the "too gas heavy" part?".
Well, I presented the case as "this is how you work with the issue of heavy gas" and tried to give solid informaiton, I'm sure the average person could say "make sentries and learn to use them". He was sincere, in his own demo way, of trying to find ways to deal with a problem, I saw it as it was.
NOW.. regarding the quote earlier about "get a pheonix for a scout". No need, spend 100/100 on hallucination and make a pheonix whenever you want. Need to see up a hill? Make a collossus. In one game, I actually scared away 10 mutalisks with 10 fake phoenix (It was possible cause of the nearby cannons).. allowing me the remainder of the time to run to his base on scrapyard and pressure him back to a defensive playstyle.
He didn't stick around to see the hits, and with the fact that no one uses hallucination means that people ASSUME it's real.
Let's not even get into the game where I made 24 fake stalkers, and as they ran into the base the guy GG'd before even engaging them. That was priceless.
You don't build a Lair only for that, and you can find Burrow useful for other purposes. The unit is very powerful even before the upgrades. The upgrades are supposed to keep the unit useful later, and keep it under check earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
A requirement of 1 Supply is too low. No unit with that amount of HP (and more importantly: Armor) has only 1 Supply. That has an impact on how much of them you can get quickly and easily.
Once you get the upgrades, all your Roaches get the benefits, so it's not really much for what you get.
By the way, at Hive there's an upgrade to increase the Roach regeneration, even when it's not Burrowed.
That's hilarious, but isn't it kind of risky to build that many Sentries?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gifted
I posted this on the beta forums (in a much harsher tone :P, made it less trollish here), enjoy.
Protoss aren't SUPPOSE to counter mutalisk. Getting phoenixes early game to counter mutas is bad, mutas are cheaper and don't require massing stargates. Stalkers are far from a hardcounter, you need to outproduce them in terms of gas and minerals, and sentries, while they do beat mutas and are available relatively easily, massing them does little against anything else.
The best they can hope for is beating them with a larger or more expensive army of (very) soft-counters like stalkers or sentries or templars or pheonixes..
That isn't some huge flaw in design, thats how the dynamic of PvZ is suppose to work. Spires take almost triple the time it takes for a hydralisk den to pop. Watching Zerg try and attempt one-base mutalisk is the most goddam hilarious thing ever. Mutalisks, in terms of DPS/cost ratio, are among the most inefficient DPS'ers in the game (ironically next to stalkers)
If hes going two base, hes going to be defending with roaches if he wants the slightest chance at getting the 2nd base up against protoss who are playing right.
Immortals counter roaches so hard that 8 zealots and 2 immortals can kill 16roaches.
By pushing with zealots 2/3gate harass and transitioning into fast immortals, you can force them to invest into hydralisks, 50 gas a piece, roaches along won't be able to take this force. While at the same time, you severely slowing down the time until his expo reaches anything close to saturation until after the switch, as well as delaying him being able to tech into lair. If hes going 13hatch, you can just outright deny his expo, while if hes going 19 roach FE, you can severely delay his expo while forcing him to invest gas into more roaches, delaying lairtech, spire, AND mutas. During this time, you can take a second expo, and you can go gain map control. He isn't going to have the gas to heavy switch into mutalisks. anytime soon.
At this point, you need to keep the pressure up by going into collosus and finishing using your eco/tech advantage, or failing that expand even more while getting high templars or something.
You force him to him to stay hydraroach for as long as possible. By the time he can go back and switch to mutalisks, you should have an economic and tech advantage required to soft-counter mutalisks with crap counters like pheonixes and stalkers and sentries and high templar.
Protoss whine mutalisks are imba, mutalisk are a hundred gas. The reason why your losing isn't because mutas are imba or you lack a counter, its because your letting him pool gas off two expos right off the start of the game with no harassment, while you fail to do the same.
Mutas aren't that viable against high level protoss. You need to know how to harass early game instead of turtling in one base and wondering why you can't counter 20 mutalisks with ten stalkers, as well as knowing how to press and take advantage of your economic advantage you gain by harassing.
An alternative to the very micro/macro heavy strategy would be to go early forge fast expansion.
Stop trying to counter mutalisks, this game isn't always about hard counters. Thats a good thing. You aren't suppose to hardcountering mutalisks, it would be ridiculous if anything made from 1 base could easily kill 2000 gas worth of tier 2 units. Instead, you have to take control of the game, or secure a economic advantage. And you need to know how to use control or a better economy optimally as an advantage.
Lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by newcomplex
Bigger lol.Quote:
That isn't some huge flaw in design, thats how the dynamic of PvZ is suppose to work.
Name another tier 2 unit that "doesn't have or need a cost-efficient counter."
Barracks (60) > Factory (80) > Starport (50) > Banshee (60) = 240Quote:
Spires take almost triple the time it takes for a hydralisk den to pop.
SPool (60) > Lair (80) > Spire (100) > Mutalisk (33) = 263
Should Protoss also not have hard counters against Banshees? Just curious.
I remember I watched a replay whr a protoss player have a stalker + sentry vs early mass roaches, he did some force fields on them & the roaches got owned.
But stalker + sentry vs mutaroach...eh I'm not sure how to counter this. But I guess you need quite a number of sentries to perform guardian shield & force field, do guardian shield stack btw?
I believe it stacks whereever the bubbles overlap. I haven't done any tests though so I can't confirm it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoFool
That would mean 4 Sentries bunched up together completely nullify Marine attacks. Obviously that's not the case, as Marine focus fire is how you destroy Sentries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hav0x
There may be diminishing returns and there could be a cap on it. I'll have to do some tests to figure it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by pure.Wasted
Guardian shields DO NOT stack.
Ok, getting Phoenixes is a bad idea if Zerg goes all-roachy. How about making 5-6 Immortals, getting an Observer on his base and then, knowing that he makes Spire right now and has not too many Roaches(hopefully) go and kill him?
That's what I've done once and that's what Liquipedia suggests.
Because if the Zerg player is at all worth his salt, he will have seen you getting those 5-6 Immortals and have a nest of Zerglings waiting.Quote:
How about making 5-6 Immortals, getting an Observer on his base and then, knowing that he makes Spire right now and has not too many Roaches(hopefully) go and kill him?
These days, with Robo-style tactics, I build only 4-5 Roaches just to defend against early Zealot play. I keep an Overlord around and fast-tech Lair, then watch what they do with an Overseer, or a sacrificed Zergling. All this time I'm pumping Zerglings and saving gas. If it looks like they're going Immortals or Colossus, then I'm getting a Spire.
Overreacting when you see a Roach is about the worst thing a Protoss can do. You need to get that Observer out first and make sure I'm pumping Roaches before investing in Immortals. If you see lots of Zerglings, I'd suggest Zealots with Charge. The problem there again is the fact that, if I see you doing that, I can very easily just go back to pumping Roaches. Only then, you can bet they'll either have Roach speed or burrowed movement.
You cannot out-macro a Zerg. Whatever tech you go for, if the Zerg player spot it, will be countered before enough of it hits the ground to be a problem. You need to take an econ advantage.
Honestly, I'm wondering if a StarGate-based build wouldn't be better. And I mean serious StarGate play, including Carriers. Throw down 3-4 of them and start making stuff. Hit my Overlords and force me to defend. Get a couple of Immortals to defend vs. Roaches, but focus mainly on Zealots and air units. Use Phoenixes to pick off workers and harass. Make sure that the Zerg either never has a Queen live for longer than a minute or that he has to keep all his units in his base. And so on.
Carriers can be a problem for Zerg, especially when backed up by Void Rays (with Flux Vanes, those things are death). Mass Hydralisk might be able to stop them, though. That's when you need to bring your upgraded Zealot+Charge army. Or High Templar with Psi Storm, though that's a different tech branch.
The key to this is using your air units to effectively harass the Zerg. Keep him bottled up while you defend with Zealots, then expand wildly. Off of 3-4 bases, you should easily be able to power 4-5 StarGates, with lots of Chrono Boost to keep the Carriers coming.
Saw a pro player game where Toss beat Roach/Muta with sentry/stalkers and a couple immortals. He made quite a few sentries, had maybe 3-4 immortals I think, then the rest stalkers. When he pushed the attack, he positioned himself near a choke, backstepped out of the choke while mutas came up. Then he forcefield-walled the roaches so they couldn't come in while stalkers decimated the mutas. The immortals chewed up the roaches one by one, while the roaches poor range of 3 wasn't enough to get in one shot.
Couple guardian shields and Muta damage goes from 9-3-1 to 7-1-1, so it's a pretty good ability to use. Sentries deal quite a bit of damage to mutas as well, and outrange roaches which makes them really good with forcefield.
I do think Roaches massive regen while burrowed needs to be nerfed though. Even if you scout them out, you need a massive amount of heavy damage to take them out. Most of the time mass stalkers aren't even enough to do it, you NEED immortals.
So, the minimal damage in SC2 is 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron
Also using them with Immortals will help against lesser shooters =)
I'd propose the cost increase for Roaches, something like 75/75 or at least 50 in gas. And Colossi to add to Immortals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron
And I have to read again about how that pro killed muta-roach...
How many Mutas and Stalkers were there?
Oh, guys! I've forgotten to tell you: RoX.KiS.BRAT_OK(I think you who this guy is) proposes to go Darks against zerg.