Re: I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!
I posted this on the beta forums (in a much harsher tone :P, made it less trollish here), enjoy.
Protoss aren't SUPPOSE to counter mutalisk. Getting phoenixes early game to counter mutas is bad, mutas are cheaper and don't require massing stargates. Stalkers are far from a hardcounter, you need to outproduce them in terms of gas and minerals, and sentries, while they do beat mutas and are available relatively easily, massing them does little against anything else.
The best they can hope for is beating them with a larger or more expensive army of (very) soft-counters like stalkers or sentries or templars or pheonixes..
That isn't some huge flaw in design, thats how the dynamic of PvZ is suppose to work. Spires take almost triple the time it takes for a hydralisk den to pop. Watching Zerg try and attempt one-base mutalisk is the most goddam hilarious thing ever. Mutalisks, in terms of DPS/cost ratio, are among the most inefficient DPS'ers in the game (ironically next to stalkers)
If hes going two base, hes going to be defending with roaches if he wants the slightest chance at getting the 2nd base up against protoss who are playing right.
Immortals counter roaches so hard that 8 zealots and 2 immortals can kill 16roaches.
By pushing with zealots 2/3gate harass and transitioning into fast immortals, you can force them to invest into hydralisks, 50 gas a piece, roaches along won't be able to take this force. While at the same time, you severely slowing down the time until his expo reaches anything close to saturation until after the switch, as well as delaying him being able to tech into lair. If hes going 13hatch, you can just outright deny his expo, while if hes going 19 roach FE, you can severely delay his expo while forcing him to invest gas into more roaches, delaying lairtech, spire, AND mutas. During this time, you can take a second expo, and you can go gain map control. He isn't going to have the gas to heavy switch into mutalisks. anytime soon.
At this point, you need to keep the pressure up by going into collosus and finishing using your eco/tech advantage, or failing that expand even more while getting high templars or something.
You force him to him to stay hydraroach for as long as possible. By the time he can go back and switch to mutalisks, you should have an economic and tech advantage required to soft-counter mutalisks with crap counters like pheonixes and stalkers and sentries and high templar.
Protoss whine mutalisks are imba, mutalisk are a hundred gas. The reason why your losing isn't because mutas are imba or you lack a counter, its because your letting him pool gas off two expos right off the start of the game with no harassment, while you fail to do the same.
Mutas aren't that viable against high level protoss. You need to know how to harass early game instead of turtling in one base and wondering why you can't counter 20 mutalisks with ten stalkers, as well as knowing how to press and take advantage of your economic advantage you gain by harassing.
An alternative to the very micro/macro heavy strategy would be to go early forge fast expansion.
Stop trying to counter mutalisks, this game isn't always about hard counters. Thats a good thing. You aren't suppose to hardcountering mutalisks, it would be ridiculous if anything made from 1 base could easily kill 2000 gas worth of tier 2 units. Instead, you have to take control of the game, or secure a economic advantage. And you need to know how to use control or a better economy optimally as an advantage.
Re: I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!
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Originally Posted by
newcomplex
Protoss aren't SUPPOSE to counter mutalisk.
Lol.
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That isn't some huge flaw in design, thats how the dynamic of PvZ is suppose to work.
Bigger lol.
Name another tier 2 unit that "doesn't have or need a cost-efficient counter."
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Spires take almost triple the time it takes for a hydralisk den to pop.
Barracks (60) > Factory (80) > Starport (50) > Banshee (60) = 240
SPool (60) > Lair (80) > Spire (100) > Mutalisk (33) = 263
Should Protoss also not have hard counters against Banshees? Just curious.
Re: I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!
I remember I watched a replay whr a protoss player have a stalker + sentry vs early mass roaches, he did some force fields on them & the roaches got owned.
But stalker + sentry vs mutaroach...eh I'm not sure how to counter this. But I guess you need quite a number of sentries to perform guardian shield & force field, do guardian shield stack btw?
Re: I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!
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Originally Posted by
SoFool
I remember I watched a replay whr a protoss player have a stalker + sentry vs early mass roaches, he did some force fields on them & the roaches got owned.
But stalker + sentry vs mutaroach...eh I'm not sure how to counter this. But I guess you need quite a number of sentries to perform guardian shield & force field, do guardian shield stack btw?
I believe it stacks whereever the bubbles overlap. I haven't done any tests though so I can't confirm it.
Re: I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!
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Originally Posted by
Hav0x
I believe it stacks whereever the bubbles overlap. I haven't done any tests though so I can't confirm it.
That would mean 4 Sentries bunched up together completely nullify Marine attacks. Obviously that's not the case, as Marine focus fire is how you destroy Sentries.
Re: I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!
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Originally Posted by
pure.Wasted
That would mean 4 Sentries bunched up together completely nullify Marine attacks. Obviously that's not the case, as Marine focus fire is how you destroy Sentries.
There may be diminishing returns and there could be a cap on it. I'll have to do some tests to figure it out.
Re: I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!
Guardian shields DO NOT stack.
Ok, getting Phoenixes is a bad idea if Zerg goes all-roachy. How about making 5-6 Immortals, getting an Observer on his base and then, knowing that he makes Spire right now and has not too many Roaches(hopefully) go and kill him?
That's what I've done once and that's what Liquipedia suggests.
Re: I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!
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How about making 5-6 Immortals, getting an Observer on his base and then, knowing that he makes Spire right now and has not too many Roaches(hopefully) go and kill him?
Because if the Zerg player is at all worth his salt, he will have seen you getting those 5-6 Immortals and have a nest of Zerglings waiting.
These days, with Robo-style tactics, I build only 4-5 Roaches just to defend against early Zealot play. I keep an Overlord around and fast-tech Lair, then watch what they do with an Overseer, or a sacrificed Zergling. All this time I'm pumping Zerglings and saving gas. If it looks like they're going Immortals or Colossus, then I'm getting a Spire.
Overreacting when you see a Roach is about the worst thing a Protoss can do. You need to get that Observer out first and make sure I'm pumping Roaches before investing in Immortals. If you see lots of Zerglings, I'd suggest Zealots with Charge. The problem there again is the fact that, if I see you doing that, I can very easily just go back to pumping Roaches. Only then, you can bet they'll either have Roach speed or burrowed movement.
You cannot out-macro a Zerg. Whatever tech you go for, if the Zerg player spot it, will be countered before enough of it hits the ground to be a problem. You need to take an econ advantage.
Honestly, I'm wondering if a StarGate-based build wouldn't be better. And I mean serious StarGate play, including Carriers. Throw down 3-4 of them and start making stuff. Hit my Overlords and force me to defend. Get a couple of Immortals to defend vs. Roaches, but focus mainly on Zealots and air units. Use Phoenixes to pick off workers and harass. Make sure that the Zerg either never has a Queen live for longer than a minute or that he has to keep all his units in his base. And so on.
Carriers can be a problem for Zerg, especially when backed up by Void Rays (with Flux Vanes, those things are death). Mass Hydralisk might be able to stop them, though. That's when you need to bring your upgraded Zealot+Charge army. Or High Templar with Psi Storm, though that's a different tech branch.
The key to this is using your air units to effectively harass the Zerg. Keep him bottled up while you defend with Zealots, then expand wildly. Off of 3-4 bases, you should easily be able to power 4-5 StarGates, with lots of Chrono Boost to keep the Carriers coming.
Re: I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!
Saw a pro player game where Toss beat Roach/Muta with sentry/stalkers and a couple immortals. He made quite a few sentries, had maybe 3-4 immortals I think, then the rest stalkers. When he pushed the attack, he positioned himself near a choke, backstepped out of the choke while mutas came up. Then he forcefield-walled the roaches so they couldn't come in while stalkers decimated the mutas. The immortals chewed up the roaches one by one, while the roaches poor range of 3 wasn't enough to get in one shot.
Couple guardian shields and Muta damage goes from 9-3-1 to 7-1-1, so it's a pretty good ability to use. Sentries deal quite a bit of damage to mutas as well, and outrange roaches which makes them really good with forcefield.
I do think Roaches massive regen while burrowed needs to be nerfed though. Even if you scout them out, you need a massive amount of heavy damage to take them out. Most of the time mass stalkers aren't even enough to do it, you NEED immortals.
Re: I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!
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Originally Posted by
Triceron
Couple guardian shields and Muta damage goes from 9-3-1 to 7-1-1
So, the minimal damage in SC2 is 1.
Also using them with Immortals will help against lesser shooters =)
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Originally Posted by
Triceron
I do think Roaches massive regen while burrowed needs to be nerfed though. Even if you scout them out, you need a massive amount of heavy damage to take them out. Most of the time mass stalkers aren't even enough to do it, you NEED immortals.
I'd propose the cost increase for Roaches, something like 75/75 or at least 50 in gas. And Colossi to add to Immortals.
And I have to read again about how that pro killed muta-roach...
How many Mutas and Stalkers were there?
Oh, guys! I've forgotten to tell you: RoX.KiS.BRAT_OK(I think you who this guy is) proposes to go Darks against zerg.
