Re: I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!
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Originally Posted by
Norfindel
Alterran, it's damn easy: just wait for FFs to wear off. If the Protoss player advances, he cannot use the FFs, because the area to cover would be huge. If he casts them again, he losses energy just to delay the confrontation, as he cannot move past the FFs himself.
Did you noticed that the Zerg player had other bases? He could had buit units from there, while the Protoss player delayed the confrontation, arriving right behind the Protoss player forces.
The Zerg player did a lot of things wrong at the end of the game. First, he losses the high-yield expansion without defending it at all. Then, he losses a lot of his Overlords, when most of them could had been moved back to his base, leaving just enough to scout.
Another clueless response... its easy? you just have to wait untill ff wears off?
Man these stupid posts keep popping up. Its NOT easy.
And again, yes, we all know already that zerg could counter this if he did lots of diffrent stuff, but what im defending is his decision to attack the protoss force when the battle already progressed to that point, while others call him a moron for doing so.
I say: the situation was lost and it would not matter what he did once the fight started, he could back off, run or stall, nothing would work. So keeping attacking isnt stupid, its just a quicker way to end a already lost game.
Let me say a few things here about that specific fight:
1) The protoss will never lose his army to muta/roaches with his back to a narrow choke point. All he has to do is to back up a bit and he will never lose his army. He can also use FF to escape, did u forget this?
2) If the protoss player advances further there is a perfectly good wall to his left, to think he wont use it with his unit mix and his abundance of forcefields is just like wishing he go afk.
3) 13 sentries alive for that long a period equals at least twice the number of FF he already used, and keep in mind he had to keep those up for 3 times each. What part of this do you translate to "easy to wear down 13 sentries energy".
4) forcefield pushes roaches back out of fire range. No matter if he is quick and gain a bit of ground to attack, he will get pushed back. This means that he cant win that fight unless he gets the protoss totaly out of forcefields, WITHOUT losing a huge chunk of his army while trying to force the protoss to FF.
5) To force the protoss to use that many fields, he will have to go for a "fake" surround, this will cost him many units even if he is only in fire range for a few sec. Roaches dancing outside of even sentries fire range is not that scary, not to make an entire half circle...
Just a question here,
Imagine the very best players in the world, Protoss and Zerg both loading this game and jump into the start of that fight.
Both will play perfect from this point forward in the game.
Do you think that the zerg player has a chance to win when both play perfect?
Re: I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!
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I say: the situation was lost and it would not matter what he did once the fight started, he could back off, run or stall, nothing would work. So keeping attacking isnt stupid, its just a quicker way to end a already lost game.
GG'ing would be a faster way to end the "already lost game." That's the traditional way of signaling that you've lost and its time to end the game.
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The protoss will never lose his army to muta/roaches with his back to a narrow choke point. All he has to do is to back up a bit and he will never lose his army. He can also use FF to escape, did u forget this?
But then the Natural would have been safe. And he would have been giving the Zerg time to get a more appropriate counter up.
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3) 13 sentries alive for that long a period equals at least twice the number of FF he already used, and keep in mind he had to keep those up for 3 times each. What part of this do you translate to "easy to wear down 13 sentries energy".
Again, so long as he maintained the force field wall, the Protoss could not attack the expansion. The force fields locked him out.
Re: I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!
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Originally Posted by
Nicol Bolas
GG'ing would be a faster way to end the "already lost game." That's the traditional way of signaling that you've lost and its time to end the game.
But then the Natural would have been safe. And he would have been giving the Zerg time to get a more appropriate counter up.
Again, so long as he maintained the force field wall, the Protoss could not attack the expansion. The force fields locked him out.
Nicol, please understand that he wont maintain a forcefield wall unless there is anything to maintain it against. If you back away, the protoss can and will put advance forcefields in place, remember he is attacking. There is only one reason why he would not put the forcefields further ahead, and thats cuz you are currently attacking him!
And if you try to make him remain static, you will lose a lot of units in doing so. You cant just expect him to be stupid and standing behind forcefields without any real exchange of fire.
Time to counter up? how is he really going to make him stall for 2 enteir spawns? Overlords --> Hydra? or tech burrow? i just dont see it happen unless the protoss player fails horrible to push with his superior army.
I dont see how the zerg player can really force the protoss to flee this battle and run to behind the choke, it was just a reminder that the protoss will never lose his army like some people here dream about.
Remember that the only reason those roaches didnt get smoked alive quicker is that 24 mutas took all the first fire. Roaches are nothing against immortals and stalkers combined with sentries.
And lol, yea GG is a faster way to end the game. But why would he do that before he has some fun? lol
Re: I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!
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If you back away, the protoss can and will put advance forcefields in place, remember he is attacking. There is only one reason why he would not put the forcefields further ahead, and thats cuz you are currently attacking him!
If by "attacking him" you mean "suiciding your Mutalisks in a futile effort to do anything of value" then yes, he was attacking him.
And when we said "back away", we didn't mean relocate to a different expansion. Just not throwing Mutalisks away and pulling the Roaches back to the point where the Stalkers can't shoot at them for a few seconds is all that was necessary. Stalkers were getting free hits, and the group of Sentries slaughtered the Mutalisks.
Standing where your enemy can shoot you and you can't shoot back is a poor tactical position, regardless of circumstances.
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Time to counter up? how is he really going to make him stall for 2 enteir spawns? Overlords --> Hydra? or tech burrow?
Burrow and Burrowed movement would have been of substantial value. It would have been better if those things had been researched already, but better late than never.
Re: I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!
Ok, Alterran, if you think that the best is to throw your units into a meatgrinder because "everything is lost", do it, it's your call, but you would be surprised to find that most people will try to do whatever is more efficient until they're defeated. Everyone can makes mistakes, however, and it's easy to make them when you're playing such a fast-paced game.
And yes, i think that the Zerg player had a chance to win the game if both of them played perfectly. He still had resources, and had enough units, and could do a series of things, like building more units and send them behind the Protoss forces, use the cliff on the right of the choke, use SL on every expansion to pump more units. He could create some Banelings to take care of the Sentries/Stalkers and try to avoid attacking the Immortals. Anyways, you cannot know if the other player is going to play perfectly or not, so there's hope in a situation like that.
By the way, avoid calling other people stupid just because they don't share your opinions. That's no way to discuss something.
Re: I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I view your side as what's quoted below. If I am incorrect, I apologize and you can disregard some of my thoughts.
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Another clueless response... its easy? you just have to wait untill ff wears off?
Man these stupid posts keep popping up. Its NOT easy.
And again, yes, we all know already that zerg could counter this if he did lots of diffrent stuff, but what im defending is his decision to attack the protoss force when the battle already progressed to that point, while others call him a moron for doing so."
First, please be more respectful in these forums. Many people, including yourself I suspect, come here for more competent and mature conversation and when you say thinks like the above it doesn't assist that tone at all nor assists in others respecting your opinion regarding the matter... but I disgress :)
I believe that attacking the protoss force with Roach/Muta at that point was a MASSIVE mistake that COST him the game. The game was still possible to win at that point and the best option was DEFINATELY to step away from the force fields. Here's the reasons why:
1. Force fields have a range of 2.5, roaches have a range of 3, this means they can only attack things that are essentially TOUCHING the other side of the force field. This is why Zealots don't do well with force field micro against roaches. Sentries and Stalkers have a range of 5ish I believe.
2. Force fields take 50 energy each, guardian shields take 75. To put up that field of 6ish force fields took a MASSIVE store of the energy, about 50%. He also put up Guardian shields too which drained much of the remaining amount.
3. If he would have ran away instead of "attempted the assault". Then the hard decision would have been in the protoss hands as the time waiting would have ended the currently active Guardian Shields. After the fields go down, go forward with about 2 guardian shields or even none? (They would probably get sniped) The lack of a forward choke would have allowed some flanking by the roaches as well.
4. It's important to note that this isn't saying "Zerg had it won" but simply that by not running away from the force field they gave away the chance. By you saying "the situation was lost and it would not matter what he did once the fight started", I combat that with saying "kill sentries, then focus on immortals until shields are gone. and swap to next". Suddenly roaches efficiency increase dramatically.
5. Pulling back could have allowed a handful of zerglings to join the fray as well, absorbing some important hits from the immortals for the roaches to get into the fray, saving at least 1-2 roaches for the extension of the fight.
What I'm trying to say is, pulling back provides two things: options for the Zerg and opportunities for the Protoss to make mistakes and miscalculations. It's also important to know that this includes terrain that will be more favorable to the Zerg Player. So many factors weren't brought into play.
Information: I'm a Protoss player, Gold skill, and people have complimented me overall as having one of the best sentry play they've seen so far. Since day one I've focused EXCLUSIVELY into learning the sentry from top to bottom and how to use it and the limits involved on it. I'm also one in 2v2 which is able to pull out victories with his partner when getting into lategames with 2v1 situations. Last night, on livestream, I was able to do 3 of such situations with victory. Trust me, at that time in that replay with the force fields... it was a misplay on the Zerg end, it was far from GG.'
I hope this knowledge helps you from saying [This is another stupid "walk away from the forcefield" post.] It's far from.
Re: I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!
@Gifted
I don't know why are you trying to convince him... He look at us as we are idiots, and no matter how many of us don't agree with him, and state the FACTS and other things that is giving you clear picture that Zerg should win that fight and not the Protoss, he is just ignoring it. Yes, we are all clueless. Ignorance and Arrogance is absurd...
Re: I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!
Hey guys, I'm back, and I've been watching a lot of SC2 replays. Has anyone here tried getting a forge and fast +1 attack and a few cannons at choke and mineral line? This seems like it would make your stalker and sentry defense much more effective while using a minimum of gas and gateway space.
Of course, you also should not overlook the capabilities of phoenixes. They're great harassment units and they are cost effective against mutas. Personally, I would NEVER go immortals against zerg, even if they are a hard counter against roaches. I think they have their place in that they can buy you time while you tech to colossus if you think the Zerg will try to do a timing roach break. (Depends what your obs sees of course), but I think rushing robo gate is a risky tech against zerg and you shouldn't expect it to work if it's scouted immediately or if the Zerg player was planning on muta-ling from the beginning.
Rather, my two strategies would be zealot/phoenix with harass and eventually charge and dark or high templar, or fast warp gate zealot/stalker/sentry with fast +1 ups and cannons to supplement against roach/muta.
Re: I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!
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Originally Posted by
RamiZ
@Gifted
I don't know why are you trying to convince him... He look at us as we are idiots, and no matter how many of us don't agree with him, and state the FACTS and other things that is giving you clear picture that Zerg should win that fight and not the Protoss, he is just ignoring it. Yes, we are all clueless. Ignorance and Arrogance is absurd...
You might want to watch your tone as well. This type of response limits conversation, not explores it. I said something "similar" to him with different words.
Besides, according to your post I think you're under an incorrect assumption. MANY PEOPLE on here care more about trying to change other opinions more than simply sharing their own. If an opinion is good enough to stand on it's own two feet, people will agree with it and convincing is merely a byproduct, not a goal.
That's what I'm doing, I'm sharing my side, presenting information that supports that, and simultaneously if he says "I disagree" I won't have a problem. If he tells me I'm wrong... then ultimately, all it is is that he THINKS my opinion is wrong, and again, nothing wrong with that. I never take that phrase personally when you put it in the RIGHT perspective. Who knows, I could VERY WELL be wrong... but until information comes along to support such an idea, I'll simply hold an opinion that could be wrong :)
^_^ Sometimes it's easier to not take people's sides so seriously... it's just a side afterall.
Re: I'm Sick & Tired Of MutaRoach!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AFXFTW
Hey guys, I'm back, and I've been watching a lot of SC2 replays. Has anyone here tried getting a forge and fast +1 attack and a few cannons at choke and mineral line? This seems like it would make your stalker and sentry defense much more effective while using a minimum of gas and gateway space.
Of course, you also should not overlook the capabilities of phoenixes. They're great harassment units and they are cost effective against mutas. Personally, I would NEVER go immortals against zerg, even if they are a hard counter against roaches. I think they have their place in that they can buy you time while you tech to colossus if you think the Zerg will try to do a timing roach break. (Depends what your obs sees of course), but I think rushing robo gate is a risky tech against zerg and you shouldn't expect it to work if it's scouted immediately or if the Zerg player was planning on muta-ling from the beginning.
Rather, my two strategies would be zealot/phoenix with harass and eventually charge and dark or high templar, or fast warp gate zealot/stalker/sentry with fast +1 ups and cannons to supplement against roach/muta.
And you are?
JK welcome back AFX, seems like you are not that old for SC2 after all... ;)
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That's what I'm doing, I'm sharing my side, presenting information that supports that, and simultaneously if he says "I disagree" I won't have a problem. If he tells me I'm wrong... then ultimately, all it is is that he THINKS my opinion is wrong, and again, nothing wrong with that. I never take that phrase personally when you put it in the RIGHT perspective. Who knows, I could VERY WELL be wrong... but until information comes along to support such an idea, I'll simply hold an opinion that could be wrong
I agree with that, but again you might check again the part you quoted in your post. By his words, we are clueless and stupid. Alright then...
