The Reason Why Lurker Was Removed

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

The mere fact that this statement can even be said shows a failure of the UI. It's actually really annoying; the attack UI tooltips tell you almost everything you might want to know except whether the attack is AoE.

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The UI in SC2 fails in every way possible. Lol, kinda ironic I complaining about this, but the UI is literally still in 98. For instance, all time counters on the UI are wrong, because they are set for fast, not fastest, and their all wrong by a margin of 1.35.

And seriously, I still have no idea whether the ultralisk is AOE or not. I used it once and it completely bulldozed M&M, so I think it is....

The zerg need a t2 unit that counters roaches and provides utility, that should replace the lurker.

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Originally Posted by newcomplex

Zerg really need another unit right now, probably in T2.

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The zerg have 4 different units at T2 (nydus), they do not need another, perhaps T3 tho

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Originally Posted by Crazy_Jonny

I want to see a new Hydra mutation, like a real Zerg Siege Weapon.
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you already have banelings, ultralisks and broodlords, what else could you possibly need?

i heard that the lurker wasnt noob freindly and thats why it got removed, could be wrong tho

[QUOTE=SCpollo;72447]The zerg have 4 different units at T2 (nydus), they do not need another, perhaps T3

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Originally Posted by SCpollo

The zerg have 4 different units at T2 (nydus), they do not need another, perhaps T3 tho

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First of all, if your counting nydus, they have five, but I have no idea why you would count the Nydus. It isn't a unit.

Zerg play feels incredibly polarized. Your either going hydraroach or lingsblingsmuta. The two separate lines feel very polarized, while in Terran, they feel almost nonexistent, and their medium in toss. This is extremely boring, and doesn't result in dynamically evolving strategies.

Terran are very non-polarized. You have bio, builds which include marines and maraunders, and mech. Thats it. Both builds can fluidly incorporate each other, both will use medivacs to quickly drop units, but in drastically different ways, both units will employ tanks and even thors. Both builds can get vikings. And you can even blur the line between bio and mech by getting reactors marines, but everything is based in mech. Its a very universal, very fluid strategy. Any build can incorporate virtually any unit, the sole exception being that marauders generally are exlusive to bio builds while hellions tend to gravitate towards mech. Every other unit is a piece of utility. This means I can change dramatically the strategies I'm using by simply chaning one unit. Within Bio, I can take a siege tank instead of medivacs, or I can get vikings instead of medivacs, or I could get a mix of thors and siege tanks, very effective against some roach heavy builds. I have a fluid strategy which constantly changes.

Protoss, you have a mix between rigid and fluid strategies. Your still going to choose a specific tech tree down the roach, but each tech tree can have many different incarnations. Heavy immortals or heavy collosus? Are you going to stress charged zealots over getting collosus. Moreso, it branches from a single core of zealots/stalkers/sentries, and what ratio of the three your going to get will change the match. At the same time, trees are far more solid, and switching between a air build and a collossus will prove difficult.

By the time we get to zerg, their strategies are extremely polarized. You either go zergling/roach/muta(v terran), or hydra/roach/Corruptors (v toss, ). Moreover, its by race. And infestors are the only real fluid unit here, as ultralisk compliment zerglings, and corruptors become broodlings. The only

real variable left here is the infestor and to some extent, the broodlord and ultralisks. Hardly a variable.

And if thats the design direction, of picking a swarm and swarming, that makes sense, we can stick to it, but then its going to need the greatest amount of solidly defined strategies. By adding a central unit tier2, equally the zergling, the roach or the hydra, we can exponentially increase the dynamic of zerg as a whole.

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you already have banelings, ultralisks and broodlords, what else could you possibly need?

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I don't get this. You listed 3 units. Ehm, ok. I have those. But their are no core permutations that will change my strategies. So what? That doesn't create a better matchup, just a more scalable one, except banelings, which are just plain basic towards any zergling opening.

On top of that, zerg have the least units, which doesn't help at all.

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i heard that the lurker wasnt noob freindly and thats why it got removed, could be wrong tho

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No. Its not, and that isn't.

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Originally Posted by Triceron

Roaches and Infestors can both move move while burrowed. They don't need to attack while burrowed to be effective, since you can attack (or cast spells), burrow, move, unburrow and attack again with better positioning.

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But they can be attacked, and you can do nothing about it, unless you unburrow. Now if unburrowed u cant win the fight, then u have to run. Not that effective at all.

Dark templars are completely invis and can attack this way, ghosts can go invis, and attack and summon spells this way. Lurker had the ability to attack while "invis". So moving while burrowed, but being unable to do shit, isnt that effective at all.

Uh, yeah, burrow-movement on the Infestor is really nice, but it's no substitute for cloaked attacking.

In general I think the tier 2 Lurker could still fill in a lot of roles that the Zerg are lacking, and there are a ton of ways to make them not overlap TOO much with banelings.

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The zerg have 4 different units at T2 (nydus), they do not need another, perhaps T3 tho

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Numbers don't matter... roles do. Tier 3 Zerg is very enticing. The Roach upgrade, Ultralisks, Brood Lords, all of them are pretty good. Zerg have a lot of units at tier 2. But that doesn't mean a tier 2 Lurker wouldn't be very much appreciated. :P Though that'd be another returning SC1 unit... but in this case I think it's warranted a bit. *Shrug*

If you put too much up there then you're weakening the race as a whole I think. I mean look at Terran, the only tier 3 unit I'd say they have is the Battlecruiser... even Banshees and Ravens can pop out really early.

Anyway, as for their reasons for removing it. Well, I hate burrow-move on the roach, so I don't think it covers it well at all. Roaches, I just think are covering way too many roles right now and sharing a couple of those with the Lurker wouldn't hurt.

Banelings and Ultralisks are also both melee AoE units... I think the Lurker provides some diversity there.

I suppose it depends on the specificity of the "roles" you take to be fundamental in Starcraft 2. I'm just not convinced that the Zerg need a unit which can attack while cloaked, as opposed to the more general role of a cloaking attacker. To me, taking that next step to say that the Zerg need the lurker because the Terrans and Protoss both have units that can attack while cloaked is like saying that the Zerg also need some kind of massive air unit because Terrans and Protoss battle-cruisers and carriers--that's too much.

I'm very happy with the roach's role, because in many ways I think that it encourages more inventive play than the dark templar or banshee (or lurker). With roaches you have this very complex hit-and-run style precisely because burrowing has also been paired with (1) movement and (2) accelerated healing. You can't simply bang on your opponents straight on, since roaches must reveal themselves to attack; but at the same time the fight doesn't end when your opponent responds, because roaches can move to another place while burrowed, recover their hitpoints, and pop up somewhere else. It's more engaging than the lurker, which players will very often plant at a location and then essentially leave there until they die or the fight is won, and I think that Blizzard did a good job making the roach a very dynamic unit.

Meanwhile, I don't think that the Zerg should have lurkers in addition to roaches for the same reason that Protoss and Terrans don't have two mass cloak threats. Take all of this, combined with the fact that we already have a problem with too many SC1 units simply being ported to SC2, and I think that the argument against lurkers is very strong.

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To me, taking that next step to say that the Zerg need the lurker because the Terrans and Protoss both have units that can attack while cloaked is like saying that the Zerg also need some kind of massive air unit because Terrans and Protoss battle-cruisers and carriers--that's too much.

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But the Zerg have a massive air unit: Brood Lords.

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It's more engaging than the lurker, which players will very often plant at a location and then essentially leave there until they die or the fight is won

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You've obviously not seen Lurkers in the hands of a skilled Zerg player.

boy am I gonna miss the lurkerling days... :(

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Meanwhile, I don't think that the Zerg should have lurkers in addition to roaches for the same reason that Protoss and Terrans don't have two mass cloak threats.

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But they do... Terran have Ghosts and Banshees, and Protoss have Dark Templar and Motherships.

Generally you don't see ghosts used much for cloaking right now, but that doesn't mean they're not good at it. They can WRECK a mineral line with their attacks alone.

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To me, taking that next step to say that the Zerg need the lurker because the Terrans and Protoss both have units that can attack while cloaked is like saying that the Zerg also need some kind of massive air unit because Terrans and Protoss battle-cruisers and carriers--that's too much.

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So Zerg don't get an aerial spellcaster, a unit that can cliff-climb, a true cloaked attacker, a capital ship or mass anti-air at tier 1... I don't think they need ALL of these things, but some of them would be nice.

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I'm very happy with the roach's role, because in many ways I think that it encourages more inventive play than the dark templar or banshee (or lurker).

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I don't really agree, but I haven't played with it that much due to my distaste for it. I know banshees especially take a lot of focus given how slow and fragile they are, and that the energy can run out at any second.

I think the Roaches' mobility makes them a bit less interesting than the Lurker, though. I think the siege-range Lurker or a Lurker with tunneling claws would be dull too, but the 6-7 range immobile Lurker is a perfectly interesting unit. In my opinion.

But on the other hand, I love the Infestor's burrow-move. Especially when they were really fast and fairly durable. So I'd rather they find ways to make that more useful/interesting than giving the roach ANOTHER role... which it doesn't even need.

It's a solid tier 1 armored unit (meaning it's good against speedreapers and hellions and things that zerg struggle against off the creep). It's a good tank. It has an interesting regeneration mechanic. (Which makes it good against melee units and periodic damage like psi storm and such)

I don't really get why it needs cloaked movement on top of all that... I guess to keep it useful when players get Ultralisks... *shrug*

I'll say it once and I'll say it again, if they brought back the defiler, all would be well. Just tone the abilities as needed.

Plague would be fun to use against mass Hydras as well. Not to mention that Dark Swarm would be even better.

If the Lurker was to come back it would need a new role. For reasons already stated stationary aoe cant work.

Then we should find a new role for it. Lurkers are iconic.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

If the Lurker was to come back it would need a new role. For reasons already stated stationary aoe cant work.

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What reasons were those again...?

That the Baneling and Ultralisk have AoE as well?

What does it being stationary have to do with anything?

Iconic units are bringing this game down =(
You could call nearly all the SC1 units iconic.

Zerg need something new to replace the Lurker!

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Originally Posted by Asfastasican

I'll say it once and I'll say it again, if they brought back the defiler, all would be well. Just tone the abilities as needed.

Plague would be fun to use against mass Hydras as well. Not to mention that Dark Swarm would be even better.

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Ah great, another returning zerg unit. yay *sarcasm*

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Originally Posted by ManjiSanji

Iconic units are bringing this game down =(
You could call nearly all the SC1 units iconic.

Zerg need something new to replace the Lurker!

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Agreed.

Yeah well the problem is not that the lurker is gone, but so far there is no replace for it. No unit can actually fill the role that the Lurker had. So all that we can do is to think how the lurker can be better, so it comes back.

I have nothing against new units, but zerg feels too far away from the original zergs.

Theres not too many classic zerg units.

Not counting workers and supply providers, theres:
Zergling, Hydralisk, Mutalisk, Ultralisk

Terrans are almost worse, i miss some of the old school units.

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Originally Posted by Gurluash

I have nothing against new units, but zerg feels too far away from the original zergs.

Theres not too many classic zerg units.

Not counting workers and supply providers, theres:
Zergling, Hydralisk, Mutalisk, Ultralisk

Terrans are almost worse, i miss some of the old school units.

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Well, the Corruptor is still an AtA unit, like the old devourer was. The Brood lord is the AtG unit, like the the old guardian was. The baneling is the suicidal unit, like the infested terran was. Of course they work in a different way, but they feel more like improved old units, than new ones, like the roach.

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Originally Posted by KadajSouba

Well, the Corruptor is still an AtA unit, like the old devourer was. The Brood lord is the AtG unit, like the the old guardian was. The baneling is the suicidal unit, like the infested terran was. Of course they work in a different way, but they feel more like improved old units, than new ones, like the roach.

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I don't really see how the baneling is all that much like the Infested Terran... other than being a sapper. And the Corruptor... isn't really anything like the Devourer at all. I don't get why everyone keeps acting as if this is a given... o_0

I mean the Corruptor has about as much in common with the Devourer as it does with the Valkyrie.

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Originally Posted by Gurluash

I have nothing against new units, but zerg feels too far away from the original zergs.

Theres not too many classic zerg units.

Not counting workers and supply providers, theres:
Zergling, Hydralisk, Mutalisk, Ultralisk

Terrans are almost worse, i miss some of the old school units.

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Than play single player when it comes out.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

I don't really see how the baneling is all that much like the Infested Terran... other than being a sapper. And the Corruptor... isn't really anything like the Devourer at all. I don't get why everyone keeps acting as if this is a given... o_0

I mean the Corruptor has about as much in common with the Devourer as it does with the Valkyrie.

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My point was that zerg air kept the same structure. An ATA unit (Old Devourer, New Corruptor), an ATG unit (old Guardian, new Brood Lord) and a unit that does bot (mutalisk). All of them with the same role. Not to mention that they lost the scourge.

About the baneling, yeah well, ill give you that one. It is different...

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My point was that zerg air kept the same structure. An ATA unit (Old Devourer, New Corruptor), an ATG unit (old Guardian, new Brood Lord) and a unit that does bot (mutalisk). All of them with the same role. Not to mention that they lost the scourge.

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And how else could it be? The Zerg as a race are defined by units that have a specific function. Except for a few generalists, Zerg units are very pigeonholed and specialized. They do very well in their specialties, but they are exactly that and nothing more.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Blizzard Quote:
... given the fact that ZvZ is a very dynamic matchup...

MutaRoach is dynamic? :p

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Because you use muta in ZvZ? Dunno what game you're playing : )

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

And how else could it be?

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Dear lord...

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Originally Posted by KadajSouba

Dear lord...

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...that's how EVERY race's air-force is set up...

One ATA, one ATG, one large ship...

What other format could they possibly have? As far as combat units go.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

...that's how EVERY race's air-force is set up...

One ATA, one ATG, one large ship...

What other format could they possibly have? As far as combat units go.

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Mutalisk being the large ship i suposse???? And Void Ray being the... AtG?????
And the viking is the.... Ok i give up...

Void Ray is the AtG (even though it can attack air)
Mutalisk is also the AtG (and can also attack air)
Viking is sorta AtA and AtG, in a different way

Broodlords are the large ship, even though their main focus is AtG

Diversity! Not everything has to be exactly the same.

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Originally Posted by ManjiSanji

Void Ray is the AtG (even though it can attack air)
Mutalisk is also the AtG (and can also attack air)
Viking is sorta AtA and AtG, in a different way

Broodlords are the large ship, even though their main focus is AtG

Diversity! Not everything has to be exactly the same.

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Well thank you. Exactly what i said.

Terrans got a unit that can switch between air mode and ground mode (viking), and a AtG unit (Banshee). Protoss got a Massive Air Caster unit that can attack (Mothership), and the phoenix that can attack air but with a little twist that allows it to atack almost everything, except massive ground units. A goddam huge huge change from the first game.

And you say... how else it was supossed to be????? Oh you do... read again

Zergs got.... the same old scheme. No diversity as you said. The same old air units reworked. Now new air mechanic.

Edit: Wait a minute this is the lurker topic. Lol i got lost for a moment. Hahaha sorry for the off-topic

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Originally Posted by KadajSouba

Mutalisk being the large ship i suposse???? And Void Ray being the... AtG?????
And the viking is the.... Ok i give up...

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Viking is the ATA, Void Ray is the ATG.

Swarm Guardian is the large ship AND the ATG.

...and you know what? The corruptor is STILL nothing like the Devourer. And has as much to do with it as it does the Valkyrie.

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Zergs got.... the same old scheme. No diversity as you said. The same old air units reworked. Now new air mechanic.

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...so did the Terran and Protoss... most of the SC2 air units are just better versions of the SC1 air units.

Sometimes very drastically different air units, but they mostly still occupy the same roles.

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Originally Posted by KadajSouba

Well thank you. Exactly what i said.

Terrans got a unit that can switch between air mode and ground mode (viking), and a AtG unit (Banshee). Protoss got a Massive Air Caster unit that can attack (Mothership), and the phoenix that can attack air but with a little twist that allows it to atack almost everything, except massive ground units. A goddam huge huge change from the first game.

And you say... how else it was supossed to be????? Oh you do... read again

Zergs got.... the same old scheme. No diversity as you said. The same old air units reworked. Now new air mechanic.

Edit: Wait a minute this is the lurker topic. Lol i got lost for a moment. Hahaha sorry for the off-topic

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I...wasn't saying anything against you, you know, no need to be snide.

I was more saying that the model that each race gets XYZ units isn't exact, and the fact that they're different is a good thing.

If anything, I was agreeing with you that you can't just label these air units as, "this is the AtG unit, this is the big unit," etc.

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Originally Posted by ManjiSanji

I...wasn't saying anything against you, you know, no need to be snide.

I was more saying that the model that each race gets XYZ units isn't exact, and the fact that they're different is a good thing.

If anything, I was agreeing with you that you can't just label these air units as, "this is the AtG unit, this is the big unit," etc.

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What what???? I said thank you in a good way. Maybe it was a bit confusing since wasn't answering only to you.

But my intention wasnt to offend you. Sorry if I did.

ANd you bring one valid point. Units cannot be labeled as THE AtA, THE AtG, unless we are talking... about the zergs.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

...so did the Terran and Protoss... most of the SC2 air units are just better versions of the SC1 air units.

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Lol you gotta be kidding me. But im gonna stop in here because this is not the topic to talk about it.

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Originally Posted by KadajSouba

Lol you gotta be kidding me. But im gonna stop in here because this is not the topic to talk about it.

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No I'm not kidding you.

Phoenix is a fast anti-light air-to-air unit. Void Ray is a solid anti-heavy generalist (in that it can attack both air and ground) air unit. Carrier is the Carrier. Mothership is a heavy, flying spellcasting unit.

I'm not saying the Mothership, Void Ray and Phoenix are carbon copies of the Arbiter, Scout and Corsair, but they serve the same basic purpose. They have about as much in common with them as the Corruptor does with the Devourer or Scourge.

It's less true of the Terran, but all the same basic roles are in there.