Idea for Zerg Caster Revamp

First of all, I would like to state that I've yet to actually play the beta. However, I have noticed that a number of people seem to feel that the Zerg's spellcasters are somewhat lacking/unpolished compared to the other two races. Indeed, Blizzard's updates have actually changed the way some of the abilities function rather than just stats and research status (I'm looking at you Neural Parasite). Hence, I thought I'd take a stab at it. This, for the most part, is more of a spell reshuffling/redistribution with one or two new ideas. However, I think it addresses the following 'issues':

1. Spawn Larva is a very unforgiving mechanic vs Chrono Boost and MULEs.
2. There is little energy tension for the Queen.
3. Overseers no longer have any spells to compete with Changelings.
4. Infestors don't really infest anything.
5. Corruptors aren't all that great vs 'massive' units.
6. Zerg spellcasters don't seem to have an instant tide changer (e.g. EMP, HSM, Psi Storm, Vortex).

For easier reading, altered abilities are labeled in green while new ones are in orange.


QUEEN

Spawn Larva ~ Costs 25 energy. Spawns 4 Larvae after 40 seconds. Can be cast on any player-owned biological structures.*

Create Creep Tumor ~ Grows a Creep Tumor for 25 energy. Same as before.

Transfusion ~ Restores 125 hit points to any biological units or structures. Same as before.

Organ Donor (New ability) ~ Costs 25 energy. Causes the Queen to temporarily mimic any tech structure accessible from the tech tree for 40 seconds, giving temporary access to the relevant units. Cannot spawn Larvae or perform research/upgrades.

*As counter-balance, players can only build 1 Queen per Hatchery/Lair/Hive at a time.


OVERSEER

Spawn Changeling ~ Costs 50 energy. Spawns a Changeling that lasts 150 seconds. Same as before.

Slime (Previously Fungal Growth) ~ Costs 75 energy. Immobilizes units within an area for 8 seconds; revealing burrowed and cloaked units for that time period. Does not deal damage anymore.*

*This should potentially give Overseers a more active role in combat and make it less helpless in the field. Also, it would be a good competitor vs Changelings; worker harrass or a spy/scout that can help with Nydus Worms?


INFESTOR

Terran Zombie (Previously Terran Infestation) ~ Costs 25 energy. Raises a Zombie Marine from the ground for 20 seconds. Same as before.

Infestation (Previously Corruption) ~ Costs 50 energy. 4 range. Channeling. Unleashes a tendril that disables an enemy structure until the Infestor moves elsewhere or is killed.

Devouring Swarm (New ability) ~ Costs 100 energy. Range 6. Unleashes a swarm of insects that devour everything in its path; up to 500 damage in total against up to 8 units. Effect is similar to 'chain lightning' except it kills the first target before moving to the next. Targets both, enemy and friendly units. Uses 'acid death' animation. Requires research.*

*This ability would help Infestors vs both, 'swarm'-type units as well as tanks. However, it's potentially dangerous as you might accidentally decimate your own forces by accident if they happen to be closest or if you cast it when too close to the enemy. Hence, practice is needed to master.


CORRUPTOR

Corruption (Previously Neural Parasite) ~ Temporarily mind controls any enemy unit for 10 seconds at 50 energy/population count. Multiple Corruptors can pool their energy together to control the same unit. Ability is non-channeling.*

*This should help make Corruptors better counter both, capital and light air units. Should make Corruptor vs Corruptor battles interesting as mind controlling a few allows you to subsequently mind control more.

sounds good to me ;] but just rename overseer slime to ensnare

I don't think there's anything wrong with the way Queen works right now. There really isn't a huge problem with larvae if you macro Spawn Larvae well enough and make more than one queen. After playing this game, I feel limiting one queen is too much of a hindrance, because not only is this unit used for macro, but it's great early-game anti-air defense as well. Two queens in a given location can thwart early void ray or phoenix rushes. If you were limited to one queen, it would be easy prey for most early rushes and the Zerg player would be down the ability to macro until they remake their queen.

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Originally Posted by Triceron

I don't think there's anything wrong with the way Queen works right now. There really isn't a huge problem with larvae if you macro Spawn Larvae well enough and make more than one queen.

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You may note that that was only one of mr. peasant's concerns. The other being:

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2. There is little energy tension for the Queen.

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Which is a valid concern. Of all the macro abilities, this one has become the most busywork-like because you can't even pretend you're saving the energy for Scans vs. DT/Roach/Banshee. If you're not using the energy, you're doing it wrong, period.


I'm not really a fan of the Overseer changes because I don't think they solve the problem identified, namely that the Overseer does not have enough tension for abilities. In reverse. This ability is so much more useful than Changeling that now I don't see Changeling, already mostly a joke used because the energy has nowhere else to go, ever being used.

Now let's say we removed Changeling entirely and instead gave the Overseer back Spore Cloud. (50 energy - The overseer can create a Spore Cloud, which covers an area, blocking line of sight for a period of time. Units above the fog can see over and into it.)

Corruptor mind controling????? I dont like that. I liked the old turret stuff.
Tranfusion doesnt seem to useful at all. Thet need something else to create the tension. Its like the terran macro thing. The mules and the scanner are the most useful ones. The extra supply is kind of useless. Id better save that energy building a new supply depot.

No Terran Zombie please... Just bring back the old infest building.

Would Spawn Larvae be too powerful if you could cast it up to three times on the same hatchery?

What about if each time it was cast on a hatchery already under the effects of Spawn Larvae, the spell spawns 1 less Larva?

IE - when you cast Spawn Larvae on a hatchery which already is under its effect, you get 3 Larvae instead of 4. If you cast it again while the hatchery is under both spells' effect, you get 2 Larvae instead of 4. So basically, if I've not been on top of my macro and I cast Spawn Larvae 3 times on one hatchery, I get a total of 9 Larvae from Spawn Larvae.

I would like to see transfusion as an AOE ability with a limit on the total HPs it can heal.

I think queen is ok except transfusion (not really useful), I'm also a bit concerned that because of creep drop the creep tumor is not often used.

I would prefer that the infestor goes into a building for infestation, if the building gets damaged too badly (half life) it forces the infestor to lose control of it & comes out from where it goes in. Not a fan of spawning infested terran zombie too, but I really like the devouring swarm idea xD

I also prefer the old corruption ability =\

I don't understand these changes. I think how drastic they are is really unnecessary.

Why give the Infestor a really crappy version of the Corruptor's corruption ability? (7 range is too short for a unit as fragile as the Infestor as it is. 4 range will just wind up with a lot of wasted vespene gas) I don't really understand the distinction between the Infested Marine being a zombie and not being a zombie...

Don't really love Devouring Swarm either. And I really dislike the idea of transferring mind control from the Infestor to the Corruptor. I really want to test out the Corruptor's old Corruption ability. It seems like it had potential to me. And it'd have a lot of the same principles of what you're talking about here without some of the drawbacks.

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*As counter-balance, players can only build 1 Queen per Hatchery/Lair/Hive at a time.

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Sigh. This has been suggested a thousand times and I really dislike it. I like the balance they have now with one Queen per hatchery being optimal for spawning larvae. Then it's implied without being enforced.

Plus it's just too arbitrary an enforcement. I think the only change I'd make to the Queen is to switch Spawn Larvae around so that you get the larvae first, then wait 45 seconds. or maybe let it stack. But the second set of larvae will not being spawning until the first has completed spawning. So you could 'queue' it (up to... let's say... 4 times). And then it'd be a bit more forgiving.

I think the value of Transfusion and Creep Tumor will become more apparent when we get some bigger maps into the pool. Something like Destination where terrain control plays an important part. Pushes with spine crawlers I think will be more common.

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Slime (Previously Fungal Growth) ~ Costs 75 energy. Immobilizes units within an area for 8 seconds; revealing burrowed and cloaked units for that time period. Does not deal damage anymore.*

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Uh... okay. Why would you nerf Fungal Growth like that? The spell is in an awesome place right now. Really useful.

anyway, queen should be the amin concern, steamline SL by making it or atleast its duration, stackable like Alduris just suggested might be nice, but t certainly doesnt solve the problem of lacking energy tension.. Transfusion should work well with spine clawler pushing, which should actually happen in ZvZ even now, sicne they're good vs roaches n all.. however, even considering things like that + spreading creep more actively, it doesnt really affect the energy tension for the in-base-queen - transmute will remain too situational, and creep tumor in whatever cncievable form clearly isnt enough.

problem is though, if we add more utility to her, people might just keep usign her as before only add more queens to do the otehr stuff too.

so we need osmething that is like, mechanicaly bounded to larva and / or hacheries... look at it this way; SL is a great mechanic, its just lonely. why is it great at making the queen work kind of as intended? double cooldowns! one cooldown on the hachery and energy required on the queen. we need more of that!

what about an ability that make eggs hatch faster(cast on hach, same as SL) ... eggs could be made more voulnerable, or units even spawn with half life (roach abusive regen fucks this idea up grrr)
.... sadly this is probably too similar to CB productivity boost, but you get the pictur... this is the kind of ideas for the queen i beleive in.

I don’t think the Spawn Larvae energy tension issue can be fixed. Such ability is inherently overpowered no matter how offset elsewhere because it is far too attractive and can be used too frequently. I am going to make 2 suggestions. Wall of text warning!

Nerfing:

a) Reduce larvae made from 4 to 2 (or 3).
b) Increase Queen energy regeneration time by 50% (or any other effect that could emulate or create a cooldown effect).
c) A complete change:

Procreation:

Form 1: AoE spell. Cuts 1/3 to 1/2 of growth time of units in affected eggs. Cost of about 60% of max magic points.

Form2: Larvae produced by affected Hatchery produce in about half the time and allows one extra larvae per Hatch. Cost of about 60% of max magic points.

Form 3: AoE spell. No magic cost. Affected eggs produce double units (I.E. 2 drones, Lings, etc. per egg), except for massive units. Note: Mineral and gas costs apply.

Thoughts?

not good and quite broken to say the least.
just 1 queen allowed? This is very stupid.

You also make the current infester look amazingly good compared to your version.

the other units new/altered abilities also suck or are just abilities that are on some units now, just maoved between them and changed a bit.

overall bad suggestions, sorry.

I don't really think energy tension is necessary...

The key thing that energy tension provides is it forces you to choose. And that's what people like. Reasons NOT to use an ability. With chrono-boost, at least in the early game, it's so that you can save it up for something important. Say you want to get the charge or warp-gate upgrades really quickly. And then in the early game do you want zealots or probes faster?

For Terran: Well, first off you need to chose between the Orbital Command and Planetary Fortress. And there are some really cool planetary fortress builds. Then when you do get Orbital Command you need to question whether you want some protection from stealth rushes. (Banshees, DTs, etc.), speed (supply drop... I SWEAR people will figure out how to use this ability) or minerals. (MULE)

For the Queen, it's a bit trickier. Essentially you're choosing between spreading the creep (which is sort of a defensive mechanic, but it's more for map control), Transfusion (which is definitely a defensive mechanic) and Spawn Larvae (which is a production mechanic.)

In the early game there's some tension if you fast expo, you need to be able to defend both expos at once. You'll get your queen late, and you're going to need her for defense. All of the main tension is using your queen to disuade rushes. I mean if you're going to give her ANOTHER ability on the hatchery you might as well just make it a big button on that building.

The key benefit of the Queen is that she's a unit. She can be used as a defensive unit, she can bolster your defensive units, she can spread creep in order to make it easier for your units to defend an area.

She's more than just a macro mechanic IMO. I think one good change would be to make Transfusion increase the energy regeneration of a target unit/building to 10hp/sec for 15 seconds. That'd be a bit more intuitive, and make it more useful on hydralisks and mid-HP units like that. Give her a bit more use outside of the base as well.

I think the main problem is her worth as a defensive unit wanes as the game progresses. I mean even at tier 2 she dies almost instantly to everything. Which is why I think you should be able to invest in her to give her more defensive power. (Whether that would be through pure stats or some other abilities like Toxic Creep or Consume I don't know.)

Like I said previously, limiting one queen is a problem I have. Multiple queens have use.

Spawn Larvae may not have spell tension, but who cares? Neither does Chrono Boost. Sure Spawn Larvae is capped at intervals, but that's what Transfusion and Spawn Creep Tumor are for. They're supplemental spells for Spawn Larvae, and even if you're the best macro-er in the world, you're going to have a queen with more than 25 energy at some point in the game. It's just as easy to make another hatchery in the base to make use of extra queen energy, you don't have to change the mechanic around so much just because you're using it every chance you get. That's the reason why you can make multiple queens.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

I don't really think energy tension is necessary...

The key thing that energy tension provides is it forces you to choose. And that's what people like. Reasons NOT to use an ability. With chrono-boost, at least in the early game, it's so that you can save it up for something important. Say you want to get the charge or warp-gate upgrades really quickly. And then in the early game do you want zealots or probes faster?

For Terran: Well, first off you need to chose between the Orbital Command and Planetary Fortress. And there are some really cool planetary fortress builds. Then when you do get Orbital Command you need to question whether you want some protection from stealth rushes. (Banshees, DTs, etc.), speed (supply drop... I SWEAR people will figure out how to use this ability) or minerals. (MULE)

For the Queen, it's a bit trickier. Essentially you're choosing between spreading the creep (which is sort of a defensive mechanic, but it's more for map control), Transfusion (which is definitely a defensive mechanic) and Spawn Larvae (which is a production mechanic.)

In the early game there's some tension if you fast expo, you need to be able to defend both expos at once. You'll get your queen late, and you're going to need her for defense. All of the main tension is using your queen to disuade rushes. I mean if you're going to give her ANOTHER ability on the hatchery you might as well just make it a big button on that building.

The key benefit of the Queen is that she's a unit. She can be used as a defensive unit, she can bolster your defensive units, she can spread creep in order to make it easier for your units to defend an area.

She's more than just a macro mechanic IMO. I think one good change would be to make Transfusion increase the energy regeneration of a target unit/building to 10hp/sec for 15 seconds. That'd be a bit more intuitive, and make it more useful on hydralisks and mid-HP units like that. Give her a bit more use outside of the base as well.

I think the main problem is her worth as a defensive unit wanes as the game progresses. I mean even at tier 2 she dies almost instantly to everything. Which is why I think you should be able to invest in her to give her more defensive power. (Whether that would be through pure stats or some other abilities like Toxic Creep or Consume I don't know.)

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Your post starts with an analysis of ability tension and choice, but by paragraph 4 that's quickly disappearing. Where'd it go? I don't see the conclusion of your "Queen has as much choice as T/P counterparts, or howevermuch she does have is enough" argument.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

Your post starts with an analysis of ability tension and choice, but by paragraph 4 that's quickly disappearing. Where'd it go? I don't see the conclusion of your "Queen has as much choice as T/P counterparts, or howevermuch she does have is enough" argument.

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Well I'm honestly not sure. I think her being a strong defensive unit (with a race that has VERY weak defenses) gives her a fair bit of energy tension (sort of like Planetary Fortress vs. Orbital Command) but using her defensively takes A LOT more focus than using her as a larvae machine. (Spreading creep tumors is very APM-intensive, so is healing units with transfusion)

So I think if they figured out some way to make her more appealing as an actual unit, and less as a macro mechanic there would be plenty of tension between her roles and abilities.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

Well I'm honestly not sure. I think her being a strong defensive unit (with a race that has VERY weak defenses) gives her a fair bit of energy tension (sort of like Planetary Fortress vs. Orbital Command) but using her defensively takes A LOT more focus than using her as a larvae machine. (Spreading creep tumors is very APM-intensive, so is healing units with transfusion)

So I think if they figured out some way to make her more appealing as an actual unit, and less as a macro mechanic there would be plenty of tension between her roles and abilities.

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"Spreading" creep tumors? Why would you ever need to place more than one from the Queen?

Also, I've yet to see a single Zerg use transfusion... which isn't to say it's useless, but I'm pretty sure Spawn Larvae is a bit more effective.

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"Spreading" creep tumors? Why would you ever need to place more than one from the Queen?

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Spread it faster. (Takes freaking forever to spread creep if you just use one tumour.)

It's still APM intensive, though. Even if you're not using the Queens to do it. And of course the first one has to come from a Queen.

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Also, I've yet to see a single Zerg use transfusion... which isn't to say it's useless, but I'm pretty sure Spawn Larvae is a bit more effective.

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It's hard to use and it's not all that great. But I think the idea of it is sound. I kinda think maybe boosting a unit's HP or improving a unit or something is a bit more sound for Zerg, though. Maybe something that boosts a target zerg unit/buildings' stats by a certain amount or something.

It'd still be situational. But when the siutation needed is 'your opponent attacks your base', it's not all THAT situational.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

It's still APM intensive, though. Even if you're not using the Queens to do it. And of course the first one has to come from a Queen.

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Yes but that doesn't give the Zerg any more choice OR energy tension... :confused:

If anything, it's tedious busywork...

I'm still intrigued that your original idea was that the Queen has 'enough' choice/energy tension, but you haven't really been able to demonstrate that with your analysis of her abilities and the way they're used (and frankly, don't sound too convinced of it yourself, either).

Tedious busywork is what Macro mechanics are.

Mules, Chronoboost and Spawn larvae are not much more than gameplay illusions. They could have simply packaged these into the game by having hatcheries spawn larvae faster or in greater numbers, have SCVs mine more at automated intervals etc.

I agree that the Queen could use more interesting abilities, but I don't see the point. To create proper energy tension for the queen, you have to give it abilities that are on par with Spawn Larvae, something really potent and worth saving/spending energy for. This is complicated by the fact you can get limitless queens.

Lets say they gave the Queen Comsat. Instead of a player choosing to use energy between using Spawn Larvae or Comsat, the obvious route is to make more queens - one or two for spawn larvae, one for comsat.

If you limit the amount of queens you have, then you're not really making the queen any more unique than say making this a hatchery ability and paralleling that of the Nexus and Orbital Command.

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Originally Posted by Triceron

Tedious busywork is what Macro mechanics are.

Mules, Chronoboost and Spawn larvae are not much more than gameplay illusions. They could have simply packaged these into the game by having hatcheries spawn larvae faster or in greater numbers, have SCVs mine more at automated intervals etc.

I agree that the Queen could use more interesting abilities, but I don't see the point. To create proper energy tension for the queen, you have to give it abilities that are on par with Spawn Larvae, something really potent and worth saving/spending energy for. This is complicated by the fact you can get limitless queens.

Lets say they gave the Queen Comsat. Instead of a player choosing to use energy between using Spawn Larvae or Comsat, the obvious route is to make more queens - one or two for spawn larvae, one for comsat.

If you limit the amount of queens you have, then you're not really making the queen any more unique than say making this a hatchery ability and paralleling that of the Nexus and Orbital Command.

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Pretty obvious solution IMO. Don't give the Queen Comsat. Give the Queen something like Spawn Larvae which can't be spammed no matter how many there are.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

Pretty obvious solution IMO. Don't give the Queen Comsat. Give the Queen something like Spawn Larvae which can't be spammed no matter how many there are.

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not so much, its actually pretty complicated stuff, and I was very surprised it was actually balanced the way it is, considering the implications of it.

I agree that the other abilities may need a bit tweaking or maybe even changes, but overall its good enough.

On top of my head, maybe the healing ability should be AOE, but in a very small area.
Maybe heal less but with 1.25 AOE, though this will make it similar to the terran repair/healing abilities.

Another idea on top of my head is replace the healing with +1 permanent armor addition. You can use it as long as you want, with just 25 energy required.
You could potentially add +10 armor to a roach or even more, but you are then not using the energy to spawn larva. You could also add armor to buildings obviously and you can make a high value hatchery build on yellow minerals have +10 armor and thus being harder to kill.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

Yes but that doesn't give the Zerg any more choice OR energy tension... :confused:

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Yes it does. Unlike the Orbital Command, Queens cost supply. So having more than one can be rather costly for a unit you will never use offensively. The Hatchery provide two food each, so getting one per hatchery is a good idea. And if you're COMPLETELY on top of your macro you won't have queen energy to spare.

So you'll be missing out on that strong base management unit. She'll just be decent support for fighting off a raid.

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I'm still intrigued that your original idea was that the Queen has 'enough' choice/energy tension, but you haven't really been able to demonstrate that with your analysis of her abilities and the way they're used (and frankly, don't sound too convinced of it yourself, either).

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My point was it doesn't need energy tension. It's a spellcaster, not just a macro mechanic. So if it's worthwhile as a base management unit/spellcaster it won't need tension for it's macro ability because it has other uses outside of just sitting around casting spawn larvae/MULE all the time.

What I'm not sure of is whether or not it's a good enough spellcaster/base management unit to compete with the usefulness of spawn larvae.

The other thing is, depending on your build, the amount of larvae you need will vary. So the amount of attention you need to pay to spawn larvae will vary in turn.

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Lets say they gave the Queen Comsat. Instead of a player choosing to use energy between using Spawn Larvae or Comsat, the obvious route is to make more queens - one or two for spawn larvae, one for comsat.

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Yes, but then you'll be gobbling up supply, and A LOT of minerals (150 each), for a unit that has almost no offensive applications whatsoever. And she takes forever to build (50 seconds), so you'll be eating up lair/hive research time too.

Honestly, I'm kinda disappointed with the Queen. I was hoping for a unit that would be a really fun base management unit, but she's just a glorified macro mechanic... (and yes, I realize the two are the same thing, Archer. You know what I mean.)

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Originally Posted by SlickR

not so much, its actually pretty complicated stuff, and I was very surprised it was actually balanced the way it is, considering the implications of it.

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I didn't say it's easy to balance. I said it's an obvious solution to the problem Triceron presented.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

Yes it does. Unlike the Orbital Command, Queens cost supply. So having more than one can be rather costly for a unit you will never use offensively. The Hatchery provide two food each, so getting one per hatchery is a good idea. And if you're COMPLETELY on top of your macro you won't have queen energy to spare.

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If you'd looked at the part of your post I quoted, I was referring very specifically to Creep Tumors. You implied that "either way" (if they were coming from the Queen or from each other) the Tumors were providing 1) more choices and 2) energy tension. Obviously this can't be the case, as 1) spawning Tumors from one another is not a matter of "Do I want to?" but "Can I remember to?" and 2) the Queen's energy is in no way affected.

The only way Creep Tumor the ability provides valuable energy tension or choices is if it's somehow in a player's best interests to expand creep much faster than CT reproduction will allow. I've yet to find such a scenario.

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My point was it doesn't need energy tension. It's a spellcaster, not just a macro mechanic. So if it's worthwhile as a base management unit/spellcaster it won't need tension for it's macro ability because it has other uses outside of just sitting around casting spawn larvae/MULE all the time.

What I'm not sure of is whether or not it's a good enough spellcaster/base management unit to compete with spawn larvae.

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I thought it was pretty obvious this was my issue as well... ;)

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You implied that "either way" (if they were coming from the Queen or from each other) the Tumors were providing 1) more choices and 2) energy tension.

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No I didn't. I said either way they eat up a lot of APM and focus. And no matter what it's a queen ability. Even if you only cast it once.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

No I didn't. I said either way they eat up a lot of APM and focus. And no matter what it's a queen ability. Even if you only cast it once.

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Sorry, I absent-mindedly said something other than what I meant to.

The issue we're discussing is the Queen. It's not enough that she create macro for some other unit, she has to be interesting by herself. What Creep Tumors do outside of her control (also no choice, by the way) doesn't really mean much.

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Originally Posted by Triceron

Tedious busywork is what Macro mechanics are.

Mules, Chronoboost and Spawn larvae are not much more than gameplay illusions. They could have simply packaged these into the game by having hatcheries spawn larvae faster or in greater numbers, have SCVs mine more at automated intervals etc.

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My exact though since the beginning. But we have to admit that this is one thing that makes difference between sc1 and sc2. Because the "new" units can't carry that weight alone.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

Yes it does. Unlike the Orbital Command, Queens cost supply. So having more than one can be rather costly for a unit you will never use offensively. The Hatchery provide two food each, so getting one per hatchery is a good idea. And if you're COMPLETELY on top of your macro you won't have queen energy to spare.

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That's a very big if. Indeed, even top players can't always be on top of their macro 100% of the time. Indeed, the comments made by the SC:Legacy staff in their macro article suggests that the Zerg's Spawn Larvae makes the Zerg the hardest to use. While it's debatable whether difficulty level needs to be equal between all the races, it's certainly an issue when one mechanic in particular can be isolated and universally agreed to be the hardest of all.

To be specific, delays/inefficiency in Spawn Larvae results in a player falling behind in progress. Worse, this delay carries forward to all subsequent uses and accumulates with time with zero chance of ever catching up. This is very unlike the other two mechanics where inefficiency simply results in a delay of its use for that round with no repercussions on future uses.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

My point was it doesn't need energy tension. It's a spellcaster, not just a macro mechanic. So if it's worthwhile as a base management unit/spellcaster it won't need tension for it's macro ability because it has other uses outside of just sitting around casting spawn larvae/MULE all the time.

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Again, the issue of energy tension was brought up in the recent article. And while the opinions of the SC:Legacy staff aren't inherently more important than that of others, the fact that they are community-wise prolific individuals who have had hands-on experience does lend a degree of credibility to their concerns.

If they think the Queen could benefit with more energy tension (which Blizzard has also previously stated as one of their goals when designing spell casters for SC2), there's likely an argument that can be made in favour of it.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

Honestly, I'm kinda disappointed with the Queen. I was hoping for a unit that would be a really fun base management unit, but she's just a glorified macro mechanic... (and yes, I realize the two are the same thing, Archer. You know what I mean.)

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This is part of why I suggested the 'Organ Donor' idea. It adds a fair amount of decision making, can potentially alter the pace of the game and should be fun to use. Considerations like 'do I want those units now or should I produce 4 Drones, collect the resources needed and then build the tech building I need?' can be made. The decision for this is based on what strategy you use (do you want them just as a one off?) and can change the pace of the game. Imagine mimicking an Infestation Pit in order to jump straight to Hive tech? Wouldn't that be worth spending 25 energy on?

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Originally Posted by Triceron

Tedious busywork is what Macro mechanics are.

Mules, Chronoboost and Spawn larvae are not much more than gameplay illusions. They could have simply packaged these into the game by having hatcheries spawn larvae faster or in greater numbers, have SCVs mine more at automated intervals etc.

I agree that the Queen could use more interesting abilities, but I don't see the point. To create proper energy tension for the queen, you have to give it abilities that are on par with Spawn Larvae, something really potent and worth saving/spending energy for. This is complicated by the fact you can get limitless queens.

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That's not true. For MULEs, it's can't be automated because you need to decide where you want the increased mining rate to be located as this affects the rate of which mineral fields get depleted more quickly. For Chrono Boosts, a decision needs to be made as to what's getting sped up. However, it's true for Spawn Larvae; which was why I suggested 'Organ Donor', which I also feel is potent enough to be on par with Spawn Larvae in usefulness.

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Originally Posted by SlickR

the other units new/altered abilities also suck or are just abilities that are on some units now, just maoved between them and changed a bit.

overall bad suggestions, sorry.

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The reason for shuffling the abilities around is because the abilities are indeed very useful and interesting. However, I feel they would be better served on different units. For instance, mind control suits Corruptors thematically, actually helps them fulfill their role of anti-Massive ATA units while at the same time, giving them a secondary function. At the moment, Corruptors aren't all that great vs their intended targets compared to other Zerg generalists. Another example would be allowing Overseers to immobilise enemy forces. This can easily be used to harrass enemy expansions more easily than Infestors (which is also why I removed the DoT as it might be too powerful when used against workers; something I'm surprised hasn't been tried to my knowledge).

As for the Infestor's new abilities sucking, I think you're underestimating the usefulness of disabling enemy structures (whether production, research or defensive) as well as being able to instantly take out 500 hit points worth of enemy forces.