Re: Idea for Zerg Caster Revamp
Tedious busywork is what Macro mechanics are.
Mules, Chronoboost and Spawn larvae are not much more than gameplay illusions. They could have simply packaged these into the game by having hatcheries spawn larvae faster or in greater numbers, have SCVs mine more at automated intervals etc.
I agree that the Queen could use more interesting abilities, but I don't see the point. To create proper energy tension for the queen, you have to give it abilities that are on par with Spawn Larvae, something really potent and worth saving/spending energy for. This is complicated by the fact you can get limitless queens.
Lets say they gave the Queen Comsat. Instead of a player choosing to use energy between using Spawn Larvae or Comsat, the obvious route is to make more queens - one or two for spawn larvae, one for comsat.
If you limit the amount of queens you have, then you're not really making the queen any more unique than say making this a hatchery ability and paralleling that of the Nexus and Orbital Command.
Re: Idea for Zerg Caster Revamp
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Originally Posted by
Triceron
Tedious busywork is what Macro mechanics are.
Mules, Chronoboost and Spawn larvae are not much more than gameplay illusions. They could have simply packaged these into the game by having hatcheries spawn larvae faster or in greater numbers, have SCVs mine more at automated intervals etc.
I agree that the Queen could use more interesting abilities, but I don't see the point. To create proper energy tension for the queen, you have to give it abilities that are on par with Spawn Larvae, something really potent and worth saving/spending energy for. This is complicated by the fact you can get limitless queens.
Lets say they gave the Queen Comsat. Instead of a player choosing to use energy between using Spawn Larvae or Comsat, the obvious route is to make more queens - one or two for spawn larvae, one for comsat.
If you limit the amount of queens you have, then you're not really making the queen any more unique than say making this a hatchery ability and paralleling that of the Nexus and Orbital Command.
Pretty obvious solution IMO. Don't give the Queen Comsat. Give the Queen something like Spawn Larvae which can't be spammed no matter how many there are.
Re: Idea for Zerg Caster Revamp
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Originally Posted by
pure.Wasted
Pretty obvious solution IMO. Don't give the Queen Comsat. Give the Queen something like Spawn Larvae which can't be spammed no matter how many there are.
not so much, its actually pretty complicated stuff, and I was very surprised it was actually balanced the way it is, considering the implications of it.
I agree that the other abilities may need a bit tweaking or maybe even changes, but overall its good enough.
On top of my head, maybe the healing ability should be AOE, but in a very small area.
Maybe heal less but with 1.25 AOE, though this will make it similar to the terran repair/healing abilities.
Another idea on top of my head is replace the healing with +1 permanent armor addition. You can use it as long as you want, with just 25 energy required.
You could potentially add +10 armor to a roach or even more, but you are then not using the energy to spawn larva. You could also add armor to buildings obviously and you can make a high value hatchery build on yellow minerals have +10 armor and thus being harder to kill.
Re: Idea for Zerg Caster Revamp
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pure.Wasted
Yes but that doesn't give the Zerg any more choice OR energy tension... :confused:
Yes it does. Unlike the Orbital Command, Queens cost supply. So having more than one can be rather costly for a unit you will never use offensively. The Hatchery provide two food each, so getting one per hatchery is a good idea. And if you're COMPLETELY on top of your macro you won't have queen energy to spare.
So you'll be missing out on that strong base management unit. She'll just be decent support for fighting off a raid.
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I'm still intrigued that your original idea was that the Queen has 'enough' choice/energy tension, but you haven't really been able to demonstrate that with your analysis of her abilities and the way they're used (and frankly, don't sound too convinced of it yourself, either).
My point was it doesn't need energy tension. It's a spellcaster, not just a macro mechanic. So if it's worthwhile as a base management unit/spellcaster it won't need tension for it's macro ability because it has other uses outside of just sitting around casting spawn larvae/MULE all the time.
What I'm not sure of is whether or not it's a good enough spellcaster/base management unit to compete with the usefulness of spawn larvae.
The other thing is, depending on your build, the amount of larvae you need will vary. So the amount of attention you need to pay to spawn larvae will vary in turn.
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Lets say they gave the Queen Comsat. Instead of a player choosing to use energy between using Spawn Larvae or Comsat, the obvious route is to make more queens - one or two for spawn larvae, one for comsat.
Yes, but then you'll be gobbling up supply, and A LOT of minerals (150 each), for a unit that has almost no offensive applications whatsoever. And she takes forever to build (50 seconds), so you'll be eating up lair/hive research time too.
Honestly, I'm kinda disappointed with the Queen. I was hoping for a unit that would be a really fun base management unit, but she's just a glorified macro mechanic... (and yes, I realize the two are the same thing, Archer. You know what I mean.)
Re: Idea for Zerg Caster Revamp
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SlickR
not so much, its actually pretty complicated stuff, and I was very surprised it was actually balanced the way it is, considering the implications of it.
I didn't say it's easy to balance. I said it's an obvious solution to the problem Triceron presented.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aldrius
Yes it does. Unlike the Orbital Command, Queens cost supply. So having more than one can be rather costly for a unit you will never use offensively. The Hatchery provide two food each, so getting one per hatchery is a good idea. And if you're COMPLETELY on top of your macro you won't have queen energy to spare.
If you'd looked at the part of your post I quoted, I was referring very specifically to Creep Tumors. You implied that "either way" (if they were coming from the Queen or from each other) the Tumors were providing 1) more choices and 2) energy tension. Obviously this can't be the case, as 1) spawning Tumors from one another is not a matter of "Do I want to?" but "Can I remember to?" and 2) the Queen's energy is in no way affected.
The only way Creep Tumor the ability provides valuable energy tension or choices is if it's somehow in a player's best interests to expand creep much faster than CT reproduction will allow. I've yet to find such a scenario.
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My point was it doesn't need energy tension. It's a spellcaster, not just a macro mechanic. So if it's worthwhile as a base management unit/spellcaster it won't need tension for it's macro ability because it has other uses outside of just sitting around casting spawn larvae/MULE all the time.
What I'm not sure of is whether or not it's a good enough spellcaster/base management unit to compete with spawn larvae.
I thought it was pretty obvious this was my issue as well... ;)
Re: Idea for Zerg Caster Revamp
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You implied that "either way" (if they were coming from the Queen or from each other) the Tumors were providing 1) more choices and 2) energy tension.
No I didn't. I said either way they eat up a lot of APM and focus. And no matter what it's a queen ability. Even if you only cast it once.
Re: Idea for Zerg Caster Revamp
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aldrius
No I didn't. I said either way they eat up a lot of APM and focus. And no matter what it's a queen ability. Even if you only cast it once.
Sorry, I absent-mindedly said something other than what I meant to.
The issue we're discussing is the Queen. It's not enough that she create macro for some other unit, she has to be interesting by herself. What Creep Tumors do outside of her control (also no choice, by the way) doesn't really mean much.
Re: Idea for Zerg Caster Revamp
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Triceron
Tedious busywork is what Macro mechanics are.
Mules, Chronoboost and Spawn larvae are not much more than gameplay illusions. They could have simply packaged these into the game by having hatcheries spawn larvae faster or in greater numbers, have SCVs mine more at automated intervals etc.
My exact though since the beginning. But we have to admit that this is one thing that makes difference between sc1 and sc2. Because the "new" units can't carry that weight alone.
Re: Idea for Zerg Caster Revamp
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aldrius
Yes it does. Unlike the Orbital Command, Queens cost supply. So having more than one can be rather costly for a unit you will never use offensively. The Hatchery provide two food each, so getting one per hatchery is a good idea. And if you're COMPLETELY on top of your macro you won't have queen energy to spare.
That's a very big if. Indeed, even top players can't always be on top of their macro 100% of the time. Indeed, the comments made by the SC:Legacy staff in their macro article suggests that the Zerg's Spawn Larvae makes the Zerg the hardest to use. While it's debatable whether difficulty level needs to be equal between all the races, it's certainly an issue when one mechanic in particular can be isolated and universally agreed to be the hardest of all.
To be specific, delays/inefficiency in Spawn Larvae results in a player falling behind in progress. Worse, this delay carries forward to all subsequent uses and accumulates with time with zero chance of ever catching up. This is very unlike the other two mechanics where inefficiency simply results in a delay of its use for that round with no repercussions on future uses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aldrius
My point was it doesn't need energy tension. It's a spellcaster, not just a macro mechanic. So if it's worthwhile as a base management unit/spellcaster it won't need tension for it's macro ability because it has other uses outside of just sitting around casting spawn larvae/MULE all the time.
Again, the issue of energy tension was brought up in the recent article. And while the opinions of the SC:Legacy staff aren't inherently more important than that of others, the fact that they are community-wise prolific individuals who have had hands-on experience does lend a degree of credibility to their concerns.
If they think the Queen could benefit with more energy tension (which Blizzard has also previously stated as one of their goals when designing spell casters for SC2), there's likely an argument that can be made in favour of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aldrius
Honestly, I'm kinda disappointed with the Queen. I was hoping for a unit that would be a really fun base management unit, but she's just a glorified macro mechanic... (and yes, I realize the two are the same thing, Archer. You know what I mean.)
This is part of why I suggested the 'Organ Donor' idea. It adds a fair amount of decision making, can potentially alter the pace of the game and should be fun to use. Considerations like 'do I want those units now or should I produce 4 Drones, collect the resources needed and then build the tech building I need?' can be made. The decision for this is based on what strategy you use (do you want them just as a one off?) and can change the pace of the game. Imagine mimicking an Infestation Pit in order to jump straight to Hive tech? Wouldn't that be worth spending 25 energy on?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Triceron
Tedious busywork is what Macro mechanics are.
Mules, Chronoboost and Spawn larvae are not much more than gameplay illusions. They could have simply packaged these into the game by having hatcheries spawn larvae faster or in greater numbers, have SCVs mine more at automated intervals etc.
I agree that the Queen could use more interesting abilities, but I don't see the point. To create proper energy tension for the queen, you have to give it abilities that are on par with Spawn Larvae, something really potent and worth saving/spending energy for. This is complicated by the fact you can get limitless queens.
That's not true. For MULEs, it's can't be automated because you need to decide where you want the increased mining rate to be located as this affects the rate of which mineral fields get depleted more quickly. For Chrono Boosts, a decision needs to be made as to what's getting sped up. However, it's true for Spawn Larvae; which was why I suggested 'Organ Donor', which I also feel is potent enough to be on par with Spawn Larvae in usefulness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SlickR
the other units new/altered abilities also suck or are just abilities that are on some units now, just maoved between them and changed a bit.
overall bad suggestions, sorry.
The reason for shuffling the abilities around is because the abilities are indeed very useful and interesting. However, I feel they would be better served on different units. For instance, mind control suits Corruptors thematically, actually helps them fulfill their role of anti-Massive ATA units while at the same time, giving them a secondary function. At the moment, Corruptors aren't all that great vs their intended targets compared to other Zerg generalists. Another example would be allowing Overseers to immobilise enemy forces. This can easily be used to harrass enemy expansions more easily than Infestors (which is also why I removed the DoT as it might be too powerful when used against workers; something I'm surprised hasn't been tried to my knowledge).
As for the Infestor's new abilities sucking, I think you're underestimating the usefulness of disabling enemy structures (whether production, research or defensive) as well as being able to instantly take out 500 hit points worth of enemy forces.
