Protoss= game over?

I'm a korean user and i saw some korean forum posts there and before i write this it is to be noted that koeran patch is no more different than NA patches

Koeran protoss complaints compilation:
1. Protoss has NO ANSWER against terran cheese rush
terran cheese rush is unfortunately not known aganist many NA people i see
as i saw it rarely used, but once used protoss has 100% loss percentile
a brief description is terran goes fast 2 barracks and mass cheese protoss by bringing all scvs and 10 marines = protoss has no answer
- forge first 2 cannons doesn't work(not to mention going forge first or even considering forge is a huge mineral and techloss and a solutino for that to terran is either push it since they win anyways or they can simply expo due to protoss's huge disadvantage becuz of forge)
- This build was used to not only people in platinum #1 rank in korea, but also to progamers. There're hundreds of replay on how to use it in korean websites AND the scary thing is this is unblockable even if u know it is coming. This is NOT from a random copper league korean user

2. Protoss has NO ANSWER against zerg
roaches=op? of course ANYONE who says roaches r not overpowered
has absolutely no substantial evidence
why? roaches 2 armour, 16 damage per shot, 145 hp
and above all 75 MINERAL 25GAS. Roaches defy their purpose(they were made to be defensive units) and can now be used as super offensive op units

roaches are not all. When zerg go mutalisk, protoss has absolutely no options. Stalkers are mainly for armoued units which mutalisks rn't. Muta micro CAN in fact pwn them not to mention the simple number of mutas that zerg produces is overpowering already. For protoss, it's even hard to expo while zerg can safely increase # of expos due to roach + muta pressure. pheonix is known as uselessnix in korea since their ata is HORRIBLE. Actually a point here to be made is that protoss ata has ABSOLUTELY no substantial attack nonewhatsoever. Pheonix agianst zerg? yah right go to hell void rays? not for mutalisk either. carriers? too expensive and late tech for mutalisk
Hence, unless zerg is a complete n00b, mutalisk = absolute protoss loss

sentries? their natural enemy? sentries don't deserve the title of muta's counter because they're ground units and hav low moving capabilities(they're slow). With muta micro + focus fire, sentries=bye bye what can protoss do against zerg and terran? absolutely NOTHING

Protoss requires a lot of help right now that i personally realize that a lot of north americans players rn't caring enough. Any arguments against this, please feel free to post as it might help or else i could probably counter all of them(or should i say the overpoweredness of terran cheeserush and oped zerg units?)

Barring the unlikely legitimacy of a Korean living in Canada with a Hispanic forum alias...

My opinion as an average micro-oriented player: fully agree.

Roaches should rip though Zealots, that's fine. But when they're also tearing through my Stalkers? That's bullshit.

And of all the Protoss air units, they kept the Carrier over the already Shakuran anti-Muta Corsair? What a joke.

I'm sorry but I gotta say it. What a stupid QQ thread.

@ demolition
..is it that impossible to find a korean living in canada?
not to mention it's a pretty racist comment to find it illegitimate
to have a korean living in canada commenting on hispanic forum alias or whatever

@Demo: Yeah, Ernesto is actually legit, he is a RL friend of Kdracs. No matter the case your comment is still funny :)

Ernesto: 2 stalker 2 sentry beats terran cheese strat, but you have to have an entry build pattern made to counter it. You saw it in our 1v1 a few days ago regarding the same mentality as the zealot rush you attempted which I shut down swiftly. Timing JUST BARELY matches it if done right. That's the only response I know to that style of cheese which is partially why I do it.

Regarding mutas, unfortunately the best counter you have is stalker, pheonix provides a good cleanup but they're oddly a support unit in playstyle. People are used to massing them like the corsair and that won't work. In equal mineral/gas cost, even at less numbers, I've found the pheonix to be more cost efficient. The issue is that the massability of the mutalisk makes equal setups hard to achieve for the protoss.

Regarding stalker versus roach... the important thing to mention is that they don't "rip apart" stalkers in a 1 to 1 ratio. The majority of the games that I see involve the roaches out numbering the stalkers... that's the reason they're getting ripped apart, not because roaches are more powerful. It's just that zerg macro is more established with the rush and the choice to use chronos to boost econ early is tempting, this creates an issue as you'll have an unequal army. Throw 2-3 force fields in the mix to screw over their inadequate range and you'll see roaches die fast.

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Originally Posted by Ernesto

@ demolition
..is it that impossible to find a korean living in canada?
not to mention it's a pretty racist comment to find it illegitimate
to have a korean living in canada commenting on hispanic forum alias or whatever

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Actually Ernesto IS in fact our resident Korean Canadian Starcrafter. None the less, lets keep race comments to a minimum. On topic. I have to somewhat disagree with Ernesto.

1) Roaches are easily countered by immortals. And we're not talking a slight counter, but immortals eat them alive.

2) Phoenix are amazing versus zerg, and it's rare now that I don't have 4-5 of them on the field early game. They're great for overlord harassment, drone popping, queen popping, and when those mutas do come, phoenix make short work of them. Grant you, if you let Zerg pile up 20-30 muta's it's going to be close to game over, but if you can get a good amount of phoenix and sentry support you're laughing. I'm a lowly newb in bronze and have fought off wave after wave of mutas from even silver players. It makes me feel good inside :D

Gritten

Point: not being racist, just found it strange a Korean was using a Hispanic alias.

@gritten yah true roaches r useless against immortals ;)
but did u realize that as soon as u made immortals to counter roaches, u just teched up to robotics first? they forced tech u to robotics which gives u disadvantage and pheonix is not a counter to mutalisk at all. They're useful in terms of small harassing, but by the time u get 4-5 pheonix, it's already turning to be late as mass muta timing approaches

@gifted i'm afraid 2 stalkers + 2 sentries cannot block terran cheese rush i wish i could give u the link so i could show it to you. It is true that sentries can block entrance but there's a simple solution for terran where they simply pull bak momentarily until force field disappears. The cheeserush timing is unfrotunately around where u just might not be able to block it. Why would it be known as 100% win case against protoss? how would a guy in a gold league 52nd rise up to platinum league 2nd in 2 days? sentries can probably make few force fields but they're bound to lose mana that eventually that they cannot block it anymore. Not to mention it's still pretty hard since marines r ranged units that can shoot down units like sentries(although it's also ranged, butcan be shot down by marines fast) while scv in the front with 60 HP(crucial part why terran cheese rush works becuz unlike drones and probes they hav 60hp) working as a hp tanker
IF more sentries were coming, that probably means u went assimilator fast enough to gather more gas which gives u less minerals and later timing to either tech.
by the way gifted, i'm at no means to offend you, but this cheese rush is known to have proper counter amongst many other platinum and gold leaguer koreans and i doubt 2 sentries + 2 stalker can block as the timing might be off becuz terran cheese rush is fast and effective. And you might believe and come up with theoretical counters for terran cheese rush counters but i'm sure if u faced it personally, u might feel the need to change your tactic, or see your tactic not work at all. I know for sure u'll disagree with me but i'm not saying this with any substantial arguments. At the moment, due to my limited ability to lie out my arguments straight, u might think that your method might works but I am at no mean to disregard numerous builds and ways that they came up with. But honestly gifted, this build works 100% of the time even if you know it is coming. and i mean 100% of the time even toward the progamers in korea(which means insane micro and years of experience). i'm at no means to disrespect you gifted, but i just simply cannot agree with you. If you see the replays, u'll know the devestating power of it. 3 gate, fast robo, stargate, sentries, stalkers just cannot afford to stop it

It actually isn't that bad on maps with a dependable natural. Just forge FE. Its tricky, but not overtly imba atm.

Its kinda hell though on other places. Don't think its possible to win on maps without naturals if I wasn't silver against terran who do this. (I mainly get matched v gold players, so, a lot, still won't move me up T_T). When I do win, its because terran was a blathering retard.

@Squid. Yeah, its a delicate matchup, I play random and right now I have the lowest win with protoss (used to be terran before patcH).

It isn't that rigged though, just hard, nowhere near is rigged as PvT right now. Don't let them get Mutas that fast, the Protoss rely on timing pushes. You need to make them mass roaches when they FE or its a guaranteed lose. PvZ actually shifted away from mass muts, heavy pressure transitioning into immortals isn't defendable without investing heavily into other stuff, delaying muts. By the time they can counter immortals, you can secure a econ advantage, maybe get stalkers in case you see their insistent on muts (you should be able to counter by now), or if their sticking to hydraroach, collosus and push out.

going forge first against terran means u r at a huge tech disadvantage already
and forge first in sc2 seems seemingly hard with all the roaches going on. Seriously, roaches? they're definitely overpowered. regeneration rate, 145 hp, 2 armour + 75min/25gas(this is the part where it's SOOO ridiculous roaches are TOO good and they're cheap).
here's a brief video
showing how RIDICULOUS roaches's regen rate is lol

http://tvpot.daum.net/clip/ClipViewByVid.do?vid=RzUc4uNT-V8$

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Originally Posted by Ernesto

going forge first against terran means u r at a huge tech disadvantage already
and forge first in sc2 seems seemingly hard with all the roaches going on. Seriously, roaches? they're definitely overpowered. regeneration rate, 145 hp, 2 armour + 75min/25gas(this is the part where it's SOOO ridiculous roaches are TOO good and they're cheap).
here's a brief video
showing how RIDICULOUS roaches's regen rate is lol

http://tvpot.daum.net/clip/ClipViewByVid.do?vid=RzUc4uNT-V8$

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Roaches don't get regen until well into T2.

Don't get me wrong, I hate roaches, but not because their imba, because their stupid, whos idea was it to give zerg, a race iconic for squishy stuff a 145 1 food 2 armor t1 unit for 75/25?. So stupid.

thank you FINALLY someone who talks sense and agrees with me

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Originally Posted by Gritten

Actually Ernesto IS in fact our resident Korean Canadian Starcrafter.

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Waitwaitwait what? D:
What about me? :'(

And Ernesto, I already told you it's not a cheesebuild, it's an all-in build. Cheesebuild would be closer to proxy rax or high-mineral migration.

And yeah, Roach is like the kill-ground-easily unit for Zerg.

And Ernesto, did you see Crota's video on Roach regen? That one's good too.

phoenix are inf act really good vs mutas, but the problem I see is that the the zerg just switches to mass lings/hydras, and owns the toss army. the phoenix are next to useless without enemy air units to kill, except for overlord and queen harass.

pheonix are in fact are NOT good against muta lol
u'll see that 1v1 pheonix vs muta = pheonix wins
but the as number increase to 3v3 6v6 12v12..etc
pheonix cannot win

I'm not sure how you got that...in every even matchup, the phoenix should win.

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Originally Posted by Ernesto

pheonix are in fact are NOT good against muta lol
u'll see that 1v1 pheonix vs muta = pheonix wins
but the as number increase to 3v3 6v6 12v12..etc
pheonix cannot win

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You're actually incorrect there. Even in a 6 vs 6, if both players are microing with focus-fire, the Phoenixes will eat the Mutalisks alive.

I agree that this Terran Cheese rush is too powerful against Protoss, however, I don't think Zerg are.

The key to beating the Zerg is just a change in thinking. If the Zerg goes very Muta-heavy early in the game, it DOES hurt their economy. If you have two bases as Protoss (which you ought to by that time), then it's a simple matter to put a couple of cannons in your main and natural - it shuts down Mutalisk harassment very well.

The Zerg player may respond by taking an extra expansion ,but I've seen this happen time and time again, both in my crappy playing and in higher Platinum-level play - the Protoss pushes out with a combined-arms force which include Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, and a couple of Phoenixes. This allows the Protoss to effectively combat a Mutalisk army and a Zerg ground force at the same time (since it's not very Phoenix-heavy).

Remember that in BW, Terrans also have to turtle for a time against Mutalisk harass. I find that if the Zerg player over-commits to Mutalisks in SC2, the Protoss player can also turtle with just a couple of cannons, and then bust out of their base with a very powerful force.

The problem with a lot of Protoss players is that they think that the answer to Mutalisks should be a single unit, when really, a mix of Stalkers, Sentries, and Phoenixes is more effective than massing either only Stalkers or Sentries.

Mass Phoenixes will actually slaughter Mutalisks, but you're hamstringing yourself against other enemies too much by doing that (unless you've already planned some kind of Phoenix rush/harass build, in which case, you might actually be able to prevent the Zerg from getting a lot of Mutalisks in the first place).

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Roaches should rip though Zealots, that's fine. But when they're also tearing through my Stalkers? That's bullshit.

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That's like saying that Hydralisks in BW are overpowered because both Zealots AND Dragoons aren't too effective against them. In BW, the solution to mass Hydra is to just get Psi Storm. In SC2, the solution to mass Roach is to get Immortals.

Phoenixes are good vs mutas,but are you sure it would be 3v3,6v6?? By the time Zerg has 4 muta you will have 1 phoenix,by the time he has 12 you will have 4,and etc...SO it's kinda ridiclious to argue about equal numbers...

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Originally Posted by arthas

Phoenixes are good vs mutas,but are you sure it would be 3v3,6v6?? By the time Zerg has 4 muta you will have 1 phoenix,by the time he has 12 you will have 4,and etc...SO it's kinda ridiclious to argue about equal numbers...

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The OP was just saying that Phoenixes are not cost-effective against Muta - they are. He specifically used the 3 vs 3 and 6 vs 6 scenarios, saying that Phoenixes would lose, and I'm just pointing out that that's incorrect.

Most of the time, you don't see an equal ratio of Phoenixes to Mutas, but you DO see Phoenixes thrown in to support a core of Stalkers with some Sentries, and they're a very good addition.

what is a cheese rush?

I don't think protoss is dead in the water against zerg. The cheese rush is pretty ridiculous, but I haven't had anyone try it against me. I could only hope that in the time they have 10 marines, I have/am close to a sentry or two, but who knows.

Zerg are another issue, immortals solve almost all my zerg issues. Heavy muta hasn't happened to me as I put pressure on early to try and restrict their economy. With double gw + core and a proxy pylon I can usually just outproduce them. Granted I haven't played any PvZ since hitting platinum, but the only thing I may try to add is high templar to try and weaken them or force retreats while I go for workers.

Overall, however, this patch is literally only days old - there are likely more tweaks in the works.

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Originally Posted by imdrunkontea

phoenix are inf act really good vs mutas, but the problem I see is that the the zerg just switches to mass lings/hydras, and owns the toss army. the phoenix are next to useless without enemy air units to kill, except for overlord and queen harass.

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I don't think protoss would rush to phoenix tech (for now), a good mix of zealots/stalker/sentry is good enough to counter hydraling. If the zerg player is teching up to muta first it's good to pressure him early on forcing to spend additional minerals on def & ground units. And if he switches to mass roach in the middle of a phoenix muta air battle, the phoenix is not useless because it can anti-gravity some of them.

In addition to counter mutas other than using phoenixes, I think stalker + sentry combo is a good one with the guardian sheild ability.

Stalker/Sentry is too gas heavy. I've tried it many times and it's simply not viable. Especially when you need that gas to get Observers and Immortals.

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Originally Posted by Ernesto

pheonix are in fact are NOT good against muta lol
u'll see that 1v1 pheonix vs muta = pheonix wins
but the as number increase to 3v3 6v6 12v12..etc
pheonix cannot win

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@Demo: my expirience is 3v3 = pheonix, 6v6 = pheonix, 12v12 = pheonix (with 6 pheonix micro, or 1 armor advantage without micro)

@Ernesto: Show me a replay or online VID link so I can find out the exact timing, I'll show you a replay of what counters it, you haven't seen this build.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Stalker/Sentry is too gas heavy. I've tried it many times and it's simply not viable. Especially when you need that gas to get Observers and Immortals.

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That's interesting, as I find it very easy to pull off, just don't over-extend your resources by creating more gateways than you can afford and use the surplus minerals to get your expansion going without concern. Allowing you to make more gateways and cannons to defend it.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Stalker/Sentry is too gas heavy. I've tried it many times and it's simply not viable. Especially when you need that gas to get Observers and Immortals.

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What Gifted said - this is what I keep running up against as Zerg :p.

I think that once Mutalisks became the flavour of the week against Protoss, the metagame shifted, and now I see a Stalker/Sentry core in a LOT of Protoss armies. Protoss used to come at me with something like a 5:1 ratio of Zealots and Stalkers, which I could beat with Muta. Now the standard army composition seems to be something more along the lines of 1:1 with a couple of Sentries, which is much tougher for Zerg to crack, since it provides such a great balance.

Because of this change in tactics, I no longer see Mutalisks as a unit I can use to 'brute force' my way through Protoss armies.

It's actually less gas-intensive than what Zerg need to do.

Look, Zerg need to get a Lair, that's 100 gas, Spire, 200 gas, and to just get 6 Mutalisks is 600 gas. And that's a 'bare-bones' breakdown - it doesn't take into account early upgrades like Zergling speed or getting Roaches or Burrow.

For 900 gas, you can get your Warp Gate tech, 9 Stalkers, and 4 Sentries. That's more than enough to trash 6 Mutalisks, and I think that Warp Gate, Stalkers, and Sentries are usually the first thing a Protoss player spends their gas on.

I love this Protoss transition so much - it feels so organic because Stalkers and Sentries are units which you get vs Zerg ground in the first place (with some Zealots to take some hits, of course). Force Field just kicks SO much butt against both Zerglings and Roaches, and the maps in SC2 have so many chokes that Stalkers and Sentries can be used to very good effect against Tier 1 Zerg ground, with some micro. Then if the Zerg tries to mass Mutalisks, you already have a Stalker/Sentry core in place to deal with it.

I always looked at the Phoenix and Stalker stats, and thinked "How the hell are they even cost-effective". Seems like i have the answer here.

Also thinked that T1 is a mess with unclear counters.

Just to add on to the Phoenix vs Mutalisk debate, on 1v1 the Mutalisk only gets that first 9 damage. in 2v2. each Mutalisk gets 9 damage and another 3 damage from glaive worms. in 3v3 each Mutalisk gets 13 damage total. I know it's still not greater than the 20 attack that Phoenixes get against Mutalisks, I'm just throwing this out there.

I'm personally on the side that Protoss can win against Zerg... But I don't play much Protoss, so I can't really say anything from personal experience.

Kdrac, you forget that Pheonix has base 1 armor, versus the mutalisk base 0 armor. That alone does significant changes to the bounce mechanic once the shields are gone. Something to further support ya :)

The problem is that Zerg has map control the entire game. Roach with burrow pushes Toss into his base until obs, by then he has mass mutas, so time to barely defend the Muta harass. By the time you have ample AA, he can tech switch so now you have to build something else up. After he gets Hive, uber health regen Roaches will rape just about anything. Zealots/Stalkers/Storm are completely useless at that point.

The MU is more about Zerg sucking than Protoss doing anything.

Draco, interesting enough, I disagree but it's probably by the nature of my build. Roaches without burrow don't push me back into my base. If they tech specifically to burrow, I'll have a larger army at their base and push them back as they won't have the vital units to worry about the aggressive. If they do a normal tech to burrow, I will have obs flying to my army as it happens.

Ultimately, if that's the case, the issue is a lack of aggression/pressure/scouting on behalf of the Protoss. The map control has been "given". Granted, against zerg I typically do 1 zealot total as I find a higher concentration of stalker/sentry more efficient against roach pushes in early game.

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Originally Posted by Gifted

Draco, interesting enough, I disagree but it's probably by the nature of my build. Roaches without burrow don't push me back into my base. If they tech specifically to burrow, I'll have a larger army at their base and push them back as they won't have the vital units to worry about the aggressive. If they do a normal tech to burrow, I will have obs flying to my army as it happens.

Ultimately, if that's the case, the issue is a lack of aggression/pressure/scouting on behalf of the Protoss. The map control has been "given". Granted, against zerg I typically do 1 zealot total as I find a higher concentration of stalker/sentry more efficient against roach pushes in early game.

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Roaches without Burrow isn't much of a problem, but immediate tech to Burrow comes by pretty quickly, and unless the Zerg stupidly overexpands or you do some cheese build, you won't be able to do any major aggression before then. As for a mainly Stalker/Sentry army, the only way you can overpower anything is if you outmacro the Zerg. Stalkers are at the bottom of the DPS totem pole, just barely above miners and Hellions on a single target, and the only thing keeping them afloat against Roaches is superior range and the bonus. A quick switch to Zerglings/Hydralisks and you're in trouble.

At the moment, I also go Stalker heavy w/ 2-3 Sentries, but I can't amass my army quickly enough sometimes because of the nerfed building times. An early 1 base Roach push can set me back if I'm not absolutely prepared for it. The matchup is not unbeatable, but it's a very uncomfortable position the entire game. I also dislike the fact that it's very hard to punish a greedy FE (for most maps) yet it doesn't work the other way around. My only saving grace is cannons on the cliffs. They're especially good at taking out spotters too. Cannons are so amazing for maps like LT. Forge FE is great and I can outproduce the Zerg before T2 kicks in. Any map where the cannon is on the same level and it'll get eaten up in 2 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Draco

The problem is that Zerg has map control the entire game. Roach with burrow pushes Toss into his base until obs, by then he has mass mutas, so time to barely defend the Muta harass. By the time you have ample AA, he can tech switch so now you have to build something else up. After he gets Hive, uber health regen Roaches will rape just about anything. Zealots/Stalkers/Storm are completely useless at that point.

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You make it sound as if it's so easy for Zerg to get these things, Draco :p. I mean seriously, wow.

"Protoss are so silly - they can rush me with Zealots, forcing me to get lots of Roaches to counter, and then he attacks me with mass Immortals."

See? I can do that, too. And that was in fact how I felt when I was just starting out, but as I played more, I began to appreciate how the pendulum of momentum can swing back and forth from one player to the next depending on what builds they go for right from the start.

I don't want to sound harsh, but it really sounds as if you have not played enough to understand the timings quite right. If a Zerg puts gas into early Roaches, Mutalisks are not going to come out so fast that you do not have time to prepare - especially since you should have Stalkers/Sentries in a Tier 1.5 fight, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Draco

Roaches without Burrow isn't much of a problem, but immediate tech to Burrow comes by pretty quickly, and unless the Zerg stupidly overexpands or you do some cheese build, you won't be able to do any major aggression before then. As for a mainly Stalker/Sentry army, the only way you can overpower anything is if you outmacro the Zerg. Stalkers are at the bottom of the DPS totem pole, just barely above miners and Hellions on a single target, and the only thing keeping them afloat against Roaches is superior range and the bonus. A quick switch to Zerglings/Hydralisks and you're in trouble.

At the moment, I also go Stalker heavy w/ 2-3 Sentries, but I can't amass my army quickly enough sometimes because of the nerfed building times. An early 1 base Roach push can set me back if I'm not absolutely prepared for it. The matchup is not unbeatable, but it's a very uncomfortable position the entire game. I also dislike the fact that it's very hard to punish a greedy FE (for most maps) yet it doesn't work the other way around. My only saving grace is cannons on the cliffs. They're especially good at taking out spotters too. Cannons are so amazing for maps like LT. Forge FE is great and I can outproduce the Zerg before T2 kicks in. Any map where the cannon is on the same level and it'll get eaten up in 2 seconds.

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The whole fast-expand thing is an area of contention. In BW, Zerg basically can't compete with other races on an equal number of bases. In SC2, is that still the case? I honestly don't know. However, my own impressions are that Zerg do need to be ahead on bases in order to win. Individually, Zerg units like Roaches and Hydralisks are extremely powerful and can often give the infantry of other races a run for their money - certainly not the 'cheap but weak' stereotype that gets thrown around.

However, their shortcoming is just in plain ol' area damage. Siege Tanks, Colossi, and Psi Storm (for Hydras, mainly) kill Zerg really really fast. As a result, Zerg do tend to throw away quite a few units, but generally rely on superior economy/production to get them back in the fight after suffering expensive losses. Both Marines and Hydras are cost-effective damage-dealers with a vulnerability to AoE damage, but it hurts a lot less to lose a bunch of Marines than a bunch of Hydras. That's my theory at least, though :p.

@Draco:

I hear ya on a lot of your points. I do a build specifically for roaches each time (the early zealot is for the odd 7 pool) and use scouting (when I care to actually win hard) to keep an eye on their ability, It's pivotal to scout when I have my cybernetics core at 25% (roach confirmation) and about 3-5 seconds after it completes (to see larva dropping from typical queen to predict 7 roach push) If the timings are off from these two points, it helps me judge the confidence the opponent has in their build. Things that are delayed, I try to mentally judge "300 minerals missing?" and immediately consider a quick burst to their expansion with my first 3 units and pull my scouting probe to them to make the force a wee bit harder as the AI still tricks a little with priority levels of a worker. (This is when I'm serious and not doing online livecasting)

I have no issues with zergling but I'll admit I've specifically focused on force field micro since the beginning so that's a possibility of my lack of concern. If I notice a switch to hydra/ling, I just research hallucination. By the time the switch happens I have my critical 8 sentry setup. Unlike stalkers, sentries do a solid amount of dps comparatively and with a fake zealot swarm to take the hits and pushing hydras back out of range with force field micro you'll see some interesting things happen.

Depending on the game if that switch happens, I might go hard charge/zealot (Or collossi, pending their ability) or expand, as the pressure that stalker/sentry can provide is very solid for that time period securing an expansion, especially with the mineral surplus from going sentries for a while.

I'll admit, this creates an opening for me for muta harrass, but if they did a late switch, I'd be scouting with observers. If they did an early switch I might be in a bit of a rut for a while.

And yes, I agree completely on the cannons.

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Originally Posted by GRUNT

You make it sound as if it's so easy for Zerg to get these things, Draco :p. I mean seriously, wow.

"Protoss are so silly - they can rush me with Zealots, forcing me to get lots of Roaches to counter, and then he attacks me with mass Immortals."

See? I can do that, too. And that was in fact how I felt when I was just starting out, but as I played more, I began to appreciate how the pendulum of momentum can swing back and forth from one player to the next depending on what builds they go for right from the start.

I don't want to sound harsh, but it really sounds as if you have not played enough to understand the timings quite right. If a Zerg puts gas into early Roaches, Mutalisks are not going to come out so fast that you do not have time to prepare - especially since you should have Stalkers/Sentries in a Tier 1.5 fight, anyway.

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It's not just my problem. There's a discussion about it on TL with all these Platinum Protoss talking about how lopsided PvZ is. I'm making it out to be that easy for Zerg because it is that easy. The obvious answer is always to Roach spam initially; there is no disadvantage, and no thought to it. You don't need an abundance of Roaches to hold map control once you have burrow, either. They're effectively invulnerable if you micro properly. Pool your gas, larva inject, spawn 4-6 Muta at once when the Spire comes up and you can beat the vast majority of Protoss players out there.

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Originally Posted by Draco

It's not just my problem. There's a discussion about it on TL with all these Platinum Protoss talking about how lopsided PvZ is. I'm making it out to be that easy for Zerg because it is that easy. The obvious answer is always to Roach spam initially; there is no disadvantage, and no thought to it. You don't need an abundance of Roaches to hold map control once you have burrow, either. They're effectively invulnerable if you micro properly. Pool your gas, larva inject, spawn 4-6 Muta at once when the Spire comes up and you can beat the vast majority of Protoss players out there.

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Grunt... in his defense I can see his point regarding the "majority of protoss players out there".

It kinda flatters me as I'm not the majority of players or haven't played a person who utilizes this strat/switch well... but I just don't have that much problem against this setup anymore unless it's something obvious like me doing a bad job at macro... which can be attributed to that.

I find it interesting, I have a far easier time with PvZ than PvT. But also, from what I see I do a far heavier concentration with sentries than stalkers which could also attribute to my ability to be ready for tech switches away from Armored opposition.

oi.. you actually use hallucination? that is major cool. i'd love to see some replays of that, obviously.

i imagine hallucination might also help in phenix vs muta? if you're able to halucinate air units that is.

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Originally Posted by Gifted

@Draco:

I hear ya on a lot of your points. I do a build specifically for roaches each time (the early zealot is for the odd 7 pool) and use scouting (when I care to actually win hard) to keep an eye on their ability, It's pivotal to scout when I have my cybernetics core at 25% (roach confirmation) and about 3-5 seconds after it completes (to see larva dropping from typical queen to predict 7 roach push) If the timings are off from these two points, it helps me judge the confidence the opponent has in their build. Things that are delayed, I try to mentally judge "300 minerals missing?" and immediately consider a quick burst to their expansion with my first 3 units and pull my scouting probe to them to make the force a wee bit harder as the AI still tricks a little with priority levels of a worker. (This is when I'm serious and not doing online livecasting)

I have no issues with zergling but I'll admit I've specifically focused on force field micro since the beginning so that's a possibility of my lack of concern. If I notice a switch to hydra/ling, I just research hallucination. By the time the switch happens I have my critical 8 sentry setup. Unlike stalkers, sentries do a solid amount of dps comparatively and with a fake zealot swarm to take the hits and pushing hydras back out of range with force field micro you'll see some interesting things happen.

Depending on the game if that switch happens, I might go hard charge/zealot (Or collossi, pending their ability) or expand, as the pressure that stalker/sentry can provide is very solid for that time period securing an expansion, especially with the mineral surplus from going sentries for a while.

I'll admit, this creates an opening for me for muta harrass, but if they did a late switch, I'd be scouting with observers. If they did an early switch I might be in a bit of a rut for a while.

And yes, I agree completely on the cannons.

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I'm a huge fan of the Sentry, but I also have trouble with them melting like butter. Perhaps hallucination is what I've been missing. I've never used 8 Sentries at once, so maybe there's a critical mass element to it.

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Originally Posted by Draco

The problem is that Zerg has map control the entire game. Roach with burrow pushes Toss into his base until obs, by then he has mass mutas, so time to barely defend the Muta harass. By the time you have ample AA, he can tech switch so now you have to build something else up. After he gets Hive, uber health regen Roaches will rape just about anything. Zealots/Stalkers/Storm are completely useless at that point.

The MU is more about Zerg sucking than Protoss doing anything.

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By the time roaches have burrow mutas are already easily defendable :/

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Originally Posted by Draco

It's not just my problem. There's a discussion about it on TL with all these Platinum Protoss talking about how lopsided PvZ is. I'm making it out to be that easy for Zerg because it is that easy. The obvious answer is always to Roach spam initially; there is no disadvantage, and no thought to it. You don't need an abundance of Roaches to hold map control once you have burrow, either. They're effectively invulnerable if you micro properly. Pool your gas, larva inject, spawn 4-6 Muta at once when the Spire comes up and you can beat the vast majority of Protoss players out there.

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Think of all the gas that it takes to get that many Roaches, tech to Lair, get Burrow, build a Spire, AND get Mutalisks.

How many Stalkers and Sentries can you get with that? You can also get a Robo Fac up, if you need Immortals.

If the Zerg player is predictably Roach spamming (and whether or not the Zerg is going for this strat should be obvious for the Protoss), it's not difficult to tech to Immortals. You do need to play defensively for a time, and you need to make good use of Force Field to stave off that push, but once you get Immortals, the momentum swings to the Protoss' favour and you can effectively take the fight to the Zerg.

When you have such a potent Protoss ground force knocking at your door, your Mutalisks can't ignore it by attacking the Protoss' base - they can't kill the P's base faster than the P can kill the Zerg's. And of course, you'd already have Stalkers and Sentries in your army, so the Zerg doesn't get a chance to build up enough Mutalisks to take out all the anti-air in your army before you do significant damage or kill the Zerg.

But yes, it's not quite that simple. Just like when the momentum is in the Zerg player's favour, a lot of the match's outcome depends on the raw skill of the players involved. At the moment, I find PvZ to be the most interesting of the possible matchups.

I stopped paying as much heed to the guys at TL as I used to :p. Not too long ago, Smuft, #1 Protoss in his Platinum Division was talking about how PvZ was skewed in favour of P. The game's changing a lot, the metagame's still shifting around, and I'm sure you'll find plenty of Platinum players from all races saying that they feel that other races have more control in a particular MU.

The beta servers are down at the moment, but I hope this replay I'm attaching is correct. Letting the Zerg take map control isn't a problem when you're still capable of busting out with a powerful army, or if he doesn't see a tech coming. The annoying thing as a Zerg player is that if I just see 1 gateway and a Cybernetics core with my scouting Overlord/Drone before I have to retreat, it's very difficult to ascertain what the P is going to do because he'll block his ramp. Usually, 2-gate tech seems to be a very safe build. Gives you enough troop-producing power to hold off some kind of Roach rush, but also gives you enough strength to take the fight to the enemy if they are getting too greedy and aren't producing enough military units.

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Originally Posted by Gifted

Grunt... in his defense I can see his point regarding the "majority of protoss players out there".

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That's because you probably actually understand how to use Stalkers/Sentries :p. At a mid skill-level, a Roach rush is harder to stop by the Protoss player. Stalkers and Sentries DO counter Roaches, but I feel that this is only through micro - good use of Force Fields to exploit that measly 3 range on the Roach, mainly. I really think that Forcefield use is important in stopping an overly Roach-happy Zerg and that the Protoss player has to micro more than the Zerg in order to win. However, the key here is the degree to which micro is rewarded. The Zerg player can micro just as much as the Protoss in a fight like this, but with such importance being placed on good Forcefield positioning, I feel that the Protoss is more rewarded for better micro in the fight.

I think that too often, Protoss players rely on A-move and some focus-firing with the Stalkers and expect to win in a straight-up fight against Roaches. It's also about positioning - it's harder to win in open ground, but if you pick your fight at a choke (which you should be able to do if the Zerg's being aggressive), you can get some nice Forcefield traps off, and defeat his army in detail.