One of my favorite zerg units! Anyone want to speculate on why it was taken out?
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One of my favorite zerg units! Anyone want to speculate on why it was taken out?
After looking around it seems they took it out currently because it was never being used. It was 3rd tier tech but not worth getting to in it's current state. I always liked it too. I loved rushing to it, getting a force of hydras to stand behind a line of lurkers and crush early-mid assaults.
i never liked lurker even in broodwar. while its thematically cool for zerg to have a unit that attacks from underground, it sucked to be dependant on a unit that needed to be immobile to attack.
i find banelings much cooler as a unit, and more fitting gameplaywise, as they do give that option to attack from underground; act as living mines, but that they can also be used as a mobile unit along with the rest of the swarm.... lurkers in awhtever form i can concieve of them, would be so powerful once you got them that tehy'd undoubtedly vershadow banelings, and again, amke the swarm dependant on a unit that is immobile in battle - even if it'd jst happen sometimes in late game.
the ze may be missing something, but IMO it sure isnt the Lurker. good riddance!
Gonna miss the lurkerling combo in bw when sc2 comes out (that is if the dev team has decided not to bring back the lurk), it has served the swarm well.
Yeah you got to be immobile, but a pack of lurker soak so much damage! They are the ultimate defence unit. In ZvZ without the lurk, the need for detection is very low, burrow doesn't worth to invest in overseers until tier 3.Quote:
i never liked lurker even in broodwar. while its thematically cool for zerg to have a unit that attacks from underground, it sucked to be dependant on a unit that needed to be immobile to attack.
Lurk should be tier 2-2.5, i saiy 2.5 because the hydra den is already tier 2.
I loved my lurker - its ok hes just on vacation he'll be back
I did not like the Lurker, but that's because I play Terran and nothing slaughters marines quite like them.
However, I don't feel it should return. This is because Lurkers+Roaches would be so micro intensive to fight against I don't feel it would be possible against any but the most able pro.
im not arguing with the lurker being an effective unit, i just didnt like what it did to zerg playstyle; esp not how it gave relatively fewer options to players that were not comfortable using such a defensive unit with limited mobility offensively..Quote:
Originally Posted by Gt2slurp
besides, the "damage soaking" role your talking about now isnt only fulfilled by the buffed ultralisk (at t3 as the sc2 lurker was) but also by the roach...
on a related note, IMO burrowed movement opens for much more interesting gameplay than burrowed attack...
... since there's so much outspoken longing for the Lurkerer, im pondering digging through the blizzforums archives.. i remember having a discussion about the lurkers being or not being over there, a few years back. and some quality arguments being verbalized.
burrow utility in general is a different matter entirely. lets just say i think you'll be proven wrong about that.
Hell, I love the lurker so much. And graphically with the new engines and graphics in SC2 it has so much potential. But I hope to see it back, hes just in a hollyday, preparing itself to be even MORE badass...marines and reckless zealots, prepare to be impaled.
Id like it to be back. With the nerfing of detection for Zerg, it could be what ZvZ needs to spice things up.
i for one prefer to see marines and reckless zealots literally smelted away by the banelings green acid...Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongCoffee
if y'all are arguing for the return of the Lurker, you must consider in what way it aught to fit in alongside the existing and general well adjusted parts of the swarm.
They need the Lurker back. And it doesn't necessarily have to stay immobile now, considering they have integrated the idea of being able to move while burrowed...Lurkers are kind of made for digging.
That wouldn't be the Lurker then... And they would be too strong if they can move and attack while burrowed. You would have to remove splash.Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniMaster184
I don't 'miss' it. But I'd like to see it in the game.
As for why it was taken out, I think they're just fiddling around with the zerg line-up little bit before putting it back in. That's my opinion anyway.
If you ask me, Blizzard should bring the Lurker back, give it the "move while burrowed" ability (maybe research needed and also slower) and remove it from the freakin' OP roaches. Roaches that move while burrowed... heck! Give that to Lurkers!
No! It wouldn't be the Lurker anymore. It'd be like letting the siege tank move while in siege mode.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josue
I'd like it to be brought back.
However, some posters have raised the very important question of how it will fit with the current zerg line-up, something I am not quite sure Blizzard has been able to figure out. It was forgotten way up in tier 3.
I think it was removed prior to the beta launching to see how the Zerg play without it. If Blizzard finds that the Zerg are lacking in a particular area, maybe the lurker can be made to "fit in" somewhere with enhanced or slightly altered abilities/mechanics. Not sure what those would or could be but an updated/altered lurker would be better than no lurker.
My final word on the unit is that it had better be in Heart of the Swarm's Campaign mode, though. If not, I will be:mad:
That would be if they added siege range to Lurkers. I'm not proposing that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Besides, moving while underground should be a lot slower than it is now. something like 35% slower. I had seen roaches move burrowed like the same speed they did while not underground... that was too much!
How about what I propose? remove the burrowed movement from roaches and (nerf it and ) give it to Lurkers? Zerg lack any units that can attack while invisible right now!Quote:
Originally Posted by //MavericK\\
I freaking hate roaches having burrow-move, so talking about that at all will do nothing to convince me giving the Lurker burrow-move is a good idea. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Josue
It's a zerg burrower. Not a dark templar with linear splash.
I also think the lurker should return,I think it will help a lot and teach a lesson to the Terrans because all i see in almost all games is M&M&M with some other support,Linear splash with good range can spell out this common Terran tactic and drive the Terrans to build a more of a mechanized army....
The idea is to make the unit more flexible, not make it a Ghost/Dark Templar with linear splash as you say. So, moving underground must be quite slow thus not making the normal movement over the ground a "deprecated" or "obsolete" thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Besides, it should be slow, otherwise it would be a pain like the roach or a Ghost/Dark Templar!
Well, regardless. That's what you'd be doing. The unit isn't meant to move. Letting it be able to move would not add much to it at all anyway. Especially if you only let it move very, very slowly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josue
The whole point to the Lurker is to reinforce a location. If you let it move... I don't know.
I understand your anger toward the roach, but consider...Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Move-Burrow is really nothing more than a jazzed-up cloak. Nobody really gets mad at the Banshee for being able to move while cloaked. And the roach has to un-burrow before attacking. Can't the Banshee stay cloaked and attack?
The only real difference in the two is that the Banshee cannot remain cloaked indefinitely...while the Roach can hunker down forever.
That's why it should be a lot slower than the over ground movement (besides of not making it useles).Quote:
Originally Posted by //MavericK\\
So, what makes more sense? A roach moving underground or a Lurker?
I think Lurkers. Besides of the flexibility it would provide (considering that they should be unable to wander underground, being "dragged" must be prevented, Hold fire should also be there.) I see it being well used in any ambush!
All that does is ruin Roaches and make them a poor investment.Quote:
How about what I propose? remove the burrowed movement from roaches and (nerf it and ) give it to Lurkers?
This has nothing to do with "making sense;" this is about what works for the gameplay.Quote:
So, what makes more sense? A roach moving underground or a Lurker?
Burrowed movement works for Roaches because they regenerate underground. If all they could do was burrow, then that is a big disadvantage to them.
Burrowed movement allows them to make stealth attacks against static armies, which burrowed units could not otherwise do. It allows them to turn its underground regeneration into a benefit. And once the Tier 3 regen hits, burrowed Roaches are very strong for their cost against many kinds of enemies.
The whole point of Lurkers is that they must become immobile (but cloaked) to attack. That's what makes them interesting; it turns a limitation into an advantage. Giving them burrowed movement simply makes them into a cloaked attack unit. You may as well just give the Zerg a slow-moving unit that attacks with linear AoE.
Personally I used the Lurker whenever I was zerg, but I think Blizzard needs to add it back in the game. Like with protoss the dark temp. is always cloaked and it doesnt need to be upgraded, for zerg you have to get the lair and then upgrade the burrow mover.
I was always a fan of the Lurker, though it was typically relegated to a defensive role.
Were Burrowed Movement given to the Lurker, there would never be any reason to unBurrow it. Not necessarily a bad thing.
Wasn't the Lurker given an ability called Seismic Spines? What was that, a radial AoE? I miss Plague so much, so I'd like to have an ability like that.
Just idle thought, but are there any ground terrans through which you can't burrow or dig?
My concept for a Lurker replacement:
Acid Hurler (provisional name, I couldn't come up with anything better)
Cost: 50/75 gas/minerals
Time: 35
Control: 3
Evolves From: Hydralisk
Hp: 160
Attack: 15 (+10 vs. armoured), small splash (+2, +1 vs. armoured per upgrade)
Range: 0-5 (air), 3-9(ground)
Armour: 1 (Armoured)
Basically it lobs a glob of acid in a parabolic arc, which accounts for the lower air range as opposed to ground range, and the minimum ground range.
Sorry but that doesn't even feel a bit interesting :)Quote:
Originally Posted by MattII
As i said lurkers are needed back desperatly againts those same and not original Terran M&M&M tactics...
Yeah? Well excuse the elitism, but I think I'll wait for Nicol, DSquid, or one of the other regulars to make that call.
Can you expand upon the unit, Matt?
It sounds a bit generic right now.
Well I basically designed it as a lurker with a different attack really, one that it can use above ground, Also, what's generic about it? And why is that a problem, the whole Zerg identity is masses of 'generic' units.
I don't see the point in bringing lurkers back. The M&M balls of old days aren't as bad as they used to be since medics can't heal each other. A lot of unit combos combat them as opposed to having to rely on a lurker.
It would be nice to have a Zerg unit vs. armored but I don't think its needed. The more I play them the more Zerg feel stronger than the other races. They switch tech at a phenomenal speed thanks to spawn larva. There's been several times when I've baited the opponent into colossus or tanks and then switched to mutas.
I haven't had a chance to try it much as I prefer to go mutas but mass banelings as support for the Hydras vs. Protoss has seemed nice. The banelings roll in taking out the zealots and stalkers so that the hydras can finish off Colossus (assuming they didnt die as well). It seems to be a more expensive fix vs. Colossus than mutas though. Especially when you can harass with the mutas, depending on timing.
Edit: If they do decide to bring something like the lurker back then make it a new unit. I don't want another of the old Zerg units back.
Well DOES it attack while burrowed? You didn't mention that. It just seemed like a Hydralisk with an AoE attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by MattII
Exactly. We don't need MORE.Quote:
And why is that a problem, the whole Zerg identity is masses of 'generic' units.
I bet the lurker will be in the Zerg Campaign though. Just like the firebats are in the Terran one.
Even though I'd like for it to be back, its role overlaps too much with the roach.
Though their attacks are completely different, they are the same in the sense that they force your opponent to get detection or ELSE.
Blizzard implemented the roach over the lurker because they felt that Zerg needed some damage tanking unit other than the Ultralisk.
No it doesn't attack while burrowed, but it has a minimum range (unique to 'any' mobile unit), it has a siege range anti-ground attack (okay, there are a few units that have this, but still not many), and it has a delayed hit (there is a delay between shooting at and actually hitting the target), how is that like the Hydralisk?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Except that it's less 'generic' than a lot of the Zerg units, because it's impossible to use it as a single unit army because you'd get you ass handed to you (Protoss: Zealot, DT, Zerg: Zergling, Ultra, Baneling, Terran: Siege Tank, Hellion) if you tried.Quote:
Exactly. We don't need MORE.
The Lurker's ability to attack while burrowed is essential to its identity. Almost as essential to that identity is the fact that it cannot move while in attack mode. In order to move, it must become defenseless. That makes the unit interesting and unique.
If the Lurker really needs something to make it interesting, I guess I wouldn't mind if it were given an ability. I know that there are seemingly trillions of abilities already in the game, but it seems to me that the Zerg don't have nearly as many units with abilities as the other races.
The Lurker strikes me as a very spider-like unit. If it were given the ability to lay static, stealthed "traps" that basically have the same effect as the "ensnare" ability from SC1, I could see that being interesting. Could synthesize quite nicely with burrowed banelings.
Or perhaps it doesn't even need any changes to make it a more balanced, viable unit...perhaps just number / tier placement tweaking. I have a feeling that one way or another it's going to be back in the game eventually, though.
Well burrowed long range linear Aoe great vs enemy small units clustered together on one hand and a 145hp/2 armor/16 damage unit costing 75/25/1supply,With an insane regen at Tier 2 :eek: along with burrowed movement and MORE regen....Come to think of it they both have it's uses...one is support the other is tank ! , Someone said that the lurker will return but right now they are simply trying to find a good role for him and i think he is right...Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJet
I don't think burrow-move is CORE to the Roach's identity the way burrowing and attacking is to the Lurker.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJet
Uh, no they didn't. The Roach and Lurker were both in the game for 2 years.Quote:
Blizzard implemented the roach over the lurker because they felt that Zerg needed some damage tanking unit other than the Ultralisk.
It's always ALWAYS been that way. If they have abilities, they're passive. In that vein, the Roach's regen, the Corruptor's old turret ability, fit the Zerg.Quote:
I know that there are seemingly trillions of abilities already in the game, but it seems to me that the Zerg don't have nearly as many units with abilities as the other races.
Even the corruptor having corruption is weird.
Overlaps too much with Fungal Growth.Quote:
The Lurker strikes me as a very spider-like unit. If it were given the ability to lay static, stealthed "traps" that basically have the same effect as the "ensnare" ability from SC1, I could see that being interesting.