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Hi guys,
I just was watching a stream with "Lumi" from starcraft method in a 2v2 match where he basically massed giant bunkers, tanks & rines, and blocked off the path between their two opponents. I have attached a screenie.
But, what the hell is this, and can anyone in the beta confirm how to get it, and what do you think about it?
:confused:
these are the upgraded bunker i suppose...
Those are the bunkers with the neosteel upgrade which increases their holding capacity by 2 slots. I think it also grants extra building armour (but I'm not sure).
No it doesn't increase armor as well, but there is a +2 armor upgrade for all terran buildings.
How come we don't see it used more? Given the extra capacity, esp against mutas, this bunker would make mutalisk attacks more subdued. Also, it seems this is a tier 2 upgrade? So, it might hold better against masses of hydras as well. And, once the +2 armor for building is researched, this bunker becomes that much more effective!
I wonder if players will try to use it more.
Bunkers also give extra range to units inside but.. Why get a bunker and 6 marines when you can get 2 thors(gas provided). Mutas can easily avoid bunkers and just like everything in this game - it needs to be massed for it to be good. Nobody wants to spend lots of money on stationary defense.
From my experience almost all defencive buildings in sc2 are almost completely useless, and onyl usefull the money in rare ocasions.
Pretty much. Except Planetary Fortress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfecttear
not even a bunker/turrets against Muta harrass?
Terrans seem very defensive this time around.
I thought the upgraded bunkers were relegated to the single-player mode, though. Huh, neat.
Are upgraded bunkers still salvagable?
Is it only bunkers that can be salvaged, or other buildings/units, too?
Yeah they are, but it doesn't change everything. It has hapened quite a few times to me, that i acidentaly completed my wall (2 supply depots 1 baracks) with a bunker rather that an supply depot ,since the icons look so similar , and you can easily miss them at fastest game speed:p
And i always almost cried for doing so :(, yeah defences are that useless. It is always bether to build a supply depot wall than a bunker one.
Yeah, VoK, I thought that bunkers were in SP mode only; this was a surprise to me!
I understand that resource optimizing is important and that getting bunkers in general, just like in sc1, is pretty pointless. BUT, my point was that in SC2, mutas are much much stronger than in SC1 and have the same mobility.
2 Thors are bad vs 6-8mutas. Don't get me wrong, I know that Thors do good damage against similar numbers of mutas, but timing-wise, by the time u get the 2 thors, you already need to counter 6-8 mutas. The upgraded bunkers, placed in a strategic position near production buildings and in-between min line and production buildings (or to protect expos), could be a good deterrent, and seem much easier to get than Thors (from the stream I watched).
As far as I've heard, its just the bunker now - no more sensor tower, turrets, or support buildings.Quote:
Is it only bunkers that can be salvaged, or other buildings/units, too?
Thats too bad, I was hoping for all kinds of bunker-push shenanniganz - I was thinking 4 marine 2 maurader or 3 marine 2 maurader 1 Ghost combos - scvs for repair - apply stim (dont even have to leave the bunker anymore for that) then sell the rear bunkers, and build new forward bunkers.Quote:
yeah defences are that useless.
Damn, I really wish I had the beta now....
You can still use abilities while in the bunker, correct? - if you hotkey a group of ghosts, say 5, and separate them each in different Bunkers, do they all stay hotkeyed?
I have a replay you guys will want to see attached to my post.
Platinum league
I don't think how that can possibly be useless. 6 Marines shooting from a Bunker with 2 extra Armor should be good to contain someone.
Actually, as the metagame evolves and harassing units are getting more and more under control, I think that static defenses are going to be used a lot more. Look at how much Protoss are using their photons now, and how Zerg are using sunkens at just the right moment to be able to boost their econ and gain an advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfecttear
During the first week of beta people still didn't know how to defend against harassement (cliff jumping etc...) so static defenses were useless, but as we learn to place them at the right place/moment, they make more and more sense.
I think it's only a matter of time before Terrans strat using static defenses more efficiently.
@Caliban: Marauders take two slots in bunkers. And I know you can stim when you're in a bunker, but I'm not sure about ghost abilities.
In my opinion they should boost all defences. Bunkers should alredy start with 6 slots and photon cannons ans spine crawlers should have 8 range instead of 7.
It would improve the quality of the game in my mind, since people would feel more encouraged to expand early.
It's nothing wrong with short games, but it would be kinda nice if i would have a game that would last more than 10 minutes. I haven't had a game that would last longer than that since i was put into the league, it's nothing but an insane rush fest :p 2 minutes into the game i'm alredy fighting for my life (damn roaches) an holding of atacks. I played about 30 games and i haven't managed to build a thor or a raven even once, not to mention a battlecruiser.
Ah, two slots? - I guess thats fair - I always forget the Marauder is larger than normal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammy
Well, unfortunately, I'm one of the few left behind here to theorycraft, while the majority of you gets to try all this neat stuff out fer realz. :)
....but I have to agree with you and Norfindel here. Between the upgrades, Salvage, and the easier use of unit abilities from inside, the bunker is just more interactive and versatile than it was in the SC version - I think in order to maximize, you have to take advantage of all these new mechanics. Honestly, I dont depend on a lot of automated stuff, but something about all this sounds pretty interesting - maybe used more offensively, there might be something here.
As for the Ghost thing, I was thinking something like that could help a Protoss rush - Smarcast yourself a mess of EMP and Snipe at the oncoming forces from within Bunkers - then quickly remove and replace the ghosts with whatever is needed.
...So....if anyone has time, please see if you can hotkey 5 or so Ghosts, place each one in a separate Bunker, and see if they remain hotkeyed. - Also, (providing they do) if they can all be removed from the Bunkers at once without having to go to each bunker and remove manually. (?)
Thanks
Edit:
Actually wouldn't mind this - potentially even as an upgradeQuote:
photon cannons ans spine crawlers should have 8 range instead of 7.
.
Base defenses should be given important as well. Make static base defenses more viable!
I can't believe we are stack with photon canons and sunkens all over again.
This..
http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2791
Don't forget that bunkers also grant +1 range, and after all, it can be salvaged after.Quote:
I don't think how that can possibly be useless. 6 Marines shooting from a Bunker with 2 extra Armor should be good to contain someone.
Right up until the Mutalisk's sibling Corruptor comes along and Corrupts it for 30 seconds. Then it dies, as well as your workers.Quote:
The upgraded bunkers, placed in a strategic position near production buildings and in-between min line and production buildings (or to protect expos), could be a good deterrent, and seem much easier to get than Thors (from the stream I watched).
Because we wouldn't want fast expansions to be something that you could punish someone for. Nope; they should just get them for free. :rolleyes:Quote:
It would improve the quality of the game in my mind, since people would feel more encouraged to expand early.
I find bunkers exceptional in their current form but I view them as a counter situation and not a permanant thing. I use them as a way to retaliate against a scouting of mutalisk or reapers for example and remove them after the danger time period has passed. In my current setup, I know how much money I have to use and when I pump a mule I can drop 3 bunkers around my mineral line (for example) and use it to whatever effect is needed. If the threat has passed and they've changed tech, I immediately salvage them and move on with my life with 0 consequence. I have a slew of games that the placement of 3 bunkers has saved the game for me as putting 1 marine in each has delayed their strategy and allowed me time to catch up to them (for some reason they always try to attack it instead of move around it)
Sacrificing 100 minerals is far more efficient than losing more than 2 scvs, which is typically the case if I'm unable to react swiftly enough. And a single marine versus 6 reapers can take out 2 in the time it takes them to take the bunker down without armor upgrade. I also tend to select half of my SCVs and group them as Group 7 with auto-repair on. All I have to do is hit 7 + S(top), and they scurry around autorepairing. This is also a way I quickly react to my frontdoor assault.
The IMPORTANT fact is to not treat them as permanant placements, but merely as a quick counter-reaction and take them apart the moment the concern has passed.
I feel that since marines have such short range now, with no upgrades, bunkers are relatively useless...even with +1 range, many units outrange marine/bunkers, so it's just too easy to avoid or deal with.
Hey! I just had an idea! Supply Depots can be submerged, but Bunkers can't! Why not add the submerge ability to Bunkers? So you could have a wall with Supply depots with Bunkers and not have problems of troops walking over because you would be able to submerge both Supply depots and Bunkers!
Besides it could add some new strategies! such as submerging the bunkers (which I think should still be capable of being loaded and fire while submerged) and use the Supply depots as a barrier. Meanwhile you could put a Thor or Siege Tank over the bunker so it can be in range!
EDIT
And about the upgraded bunker... does the model size increase a lot? I mean the thread title says "Giant Bunker"... I mean, what if you had built them too tight... what will happen once they're upgraded?
Their size doesn't increase at all.
Then why is the title Giant Bunkers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
I generally avoid using bunkers unless in an emergency, or if I am in a turtle sort of build.
It's usually better to have a mobile army in place of bunkers, as you never want to have the battlefield be in front of your base.
If you choose to use bunkers offensively, they are rather ineffective midgame as enemy units reach that bunker far faster than you can send your own.
Well look at the picture, they're different. It's because their cargo capacity increased by 2, but their physical building placement size doesn't increase at all with the upgrade.Quote:
Then why is the title Giant Bunkers?
So, what would you think about being able to submerge your Bunkers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
Personally I don't see any merit to the idea, it probably wouldn't be utilized much (what would it be used for?) and you'd want supply depots to be in front of your bunkers anyway to prevent melee targets from attacking them.
First off it wouldn't work at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josue
Supply depots cannot reemerge and split forces when there's a huge army present. The supply depots are trapped.
Therefore, if you were under attack and you submerged your bunkers, even for a split second, they'd be stuck down and you couldn't use em'.
What? They have a range 5. And just like in SC1, Bunkers give +1 range, thus giving them range 6.Quote:
I feel that since marines have such short range now, with no upgrades, bunkers are relatively useless...even with +1 range, many units outrange marine/bunkers, so it's just too easy to avoid or deal with.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but many units now have 7 range. If you're using marines against void rays, the bunker is useless because the VRs have range 7, as do banshees. If you wall-in with supply depots in front, units like immortals can shoot the depots while being out of range of the bunkers. If you're going against mutas, it's more cost-effective to build several turrets, which have range 7 and detection, than building bunkers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Of course it does. Void Rays are supposed to be good at killing buildings; it's part of their job. If upgraded Bunkers could shoot back, then it wouldn't be doing its job. Same goes for Banshees.Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but many units now have 7 range. If you're using marines against void rays, the bunker is useless because the VRs have range 7, as do banshees.
Except that you can't salvage turrets; you can salvage bunkers. So if you build Turrets that never kill anything, that's money lost. While Bunkers can be salvaged once the danger of Mutalisks has passed (assuming they don't tech-switch back into them).Quote:
If you're going against mutas, it's more cost-effective to build several turrets, which have range 7 and detection, than building bunkers.
Also, Marines in upgraded bunkers kill Mutalisks faster (unless they have armor upgrades). And Marines in bunkers get the benefit of attack upgrades, which buildings don't.
It's a simple tradeoff.
Anf of course, usable stim while in bunker:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Or for detection, for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfecttear
Bunkers are so crazy X_X
Most terran players neglect to bring 3-4 scvs with there army! Very useful for proxy turrets and bunkers.
Proton Cannons seem about as good as they've always been, and spine crawlers can move around which makes them a better investment than they used to be!
Makes sense, or the already-built Bunkers would overlap. They can be taller and look beefier, however.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho