Wait, a billon is not the same for everyone. Here it means 1000000 millons, but i think in USA it means 1000 millons. There's a big difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by arthas
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Wait, a billon is not the same for everyone. Here it means 1000000 millons, but i think in USA it means 1000 millons. There's a big difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by arthas
Sci-fi doesn't work like logic. You have to have proof.Quote:
Originally Posted by arthas
Well not just the US ,everywhere is 1000 millions = 1 billion Well at least that's excepted in the international stageQuote:
Originally Posted by Norfindel
@Shadow_Archon Dude you gotta be kidding me,I just don't know why do you cling to the idea that SC Lore is good as it is now,IT's all a big mess,,,,,Someone can use nukes to destroy a planet,there is some ridiclious ban after that,That STOPS them from using the same tactic vs ZERG and win or what exacly are you arguing about ??? But i guess that's what needs to be done to allow GAME to continue...
There was a huge debate about this on blizzforums. I started the thread wondering why the Terrans couldn't simply nuke everyone to death. I can't remember the conclusion though.Quote:
@Shadow_Archon Dude you gotta be kidding me,I just don't know why do you cling to the idea that SC Lore is good as it is now,IT's all a big mess,,,,,Someone can use nukes to destroy a planet,there is some ridiclious ban after that,That STOPS them from using the same tactic vs ZERG and win or what exacly are you arguing about ??? But i guess that's what needs to be done to allow GAME to continue...
They don't have nukes that can destroy a planet. All they have are nukes that can glass a planet. In fact, the Zerg could very well survive due to subterranean hives. It won't win them the war. The Zerg can keep coming. If they nuked every single world with a Zerg on it, they would have to spend resources on that world to terra-form it if they wanted it back. This would put them into a war of attrition, one the Zerg could win. Please just think about it before you post.Quote:
Originally Posted by arthas
There are somethings in the lore that need fixing, such as planets and population, but it is still damn good. The fact that they can't use nukes is pretty obvious to me. Also, it would cause tension with the other Terran factions. The Dominion wouldn't want a war with them while the Zerg approach. Nuking, if they had the industry to produce the TT nukes, would probably cause the Umojan Protectorate and the KM combine to go to war with the Dominion. You seem to have the idea that the Terrans are under one banner.
The planetary orbit also has to be cleaned of enemy fliers before any nuking or purifying can take place. That was the point of the Omega mission.
Mainly because the Zerg were consolidating some of their forces on Char Aleph, Char's space platform.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Ok here we go again....Do you have any idea how real nukes work? And as i said building nukes and finding materials is easy and a single planet can produce materials for nukes capable of destroying not hundreds but thousands of worlds if not even more,Weight to power is probably the best qualitiy of nukes,I mean for antimatter you have to spent thousands more times energy then energy you get from annihilation of A-M and in nukes is the opposite you get small tonnage of materials and get milions of times more energy ! And I know very well that Terrans are not under one banner,But who said that they will use these weapons VS any other race except the Zerg? And as is stated in the "Lore' Zerg are vulnerable to radiation,So i guess you don't need thousands of warheads probably only dozens for a planet,And considering that the Tzar Bomb was 27 tonnes and had a 50 megaton and only had a ration of 1.9 Ton/Megaton yield TODAY's weight-to-yield is 5.2ton/Megaton and theoretical possible for 6ton/Megaton(21st century standards !) imagine what the Dominon can build or every other Terran faction? Or the UED that controls dozens of star systems?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Archon
And why does orbit needs to be cleared before nuking??? Nothing prevented the Confederacy from launching missiles from Tarsonis...You both are talking complete nonsenses,And If small fighters such as wraiths can 'warp travel' what prevents from building a similiar engine on a nuke ? Hell i can just 'warp' them in the atmosphere and no need for so much fuel to travel between planets ,no need for clearing orbit... I guess you have to think not me, and not just think but read how exacly nuclear fission and fusion work,then try to be a professor.......
It's a game dude. Is this really the part that you don't buy? Are you fine with marines shooting down battlecruisers? A couple thousand rapists starting a galactic empire in 300 years? Psionics? Totally unrealistic zerg genetics?
Refusing to admit that there is an explanation in a sci-fi game doesn't mean there isn't one. You can pull any explanation out of thin air. Perhaps an obscure, strange quantum mechanical rule allows nukes to be predicted and then deflected way in advance through warp space?
Nukes can be shot down from orbit by missile defense systems that already exist today. The Zerg would have similar capabilities, with them being able to launch spores across planets. Korhal had none of this because they weren't prepared and/or didn't have the technology. They also didn't have a fleet. If you disagree then the burden of proof is on you. It's not an inconsistency/plot-hole just because it hasn't been talked about in lore.
Ok how exacly do you know that missiles can be shoot down with missile defence??? Is this has been ever tested in real battle situations? NO ! And who can launch spores? across planets? That's the other unrealistic most ridiclious thing EVER even in Sci-fi! OF Cource that's GAME that's what i'm telling from the start of this topic....Don't you think that is a little odd for the other guy to be telling me they CAN'T Build nukes BUT CAN build warp drives and warships who are kilometers in length??? My point here is to prove that the Lore in SC is complete mess who aims ONLY in continuing the game and storyline of both Zerg,toss,terran colonists,even if none of it makes sense,it's all to make more and more cash for Blizzard...
woah deja vu. I posted something like this a long time ago.
Quote:
Roughly 275 hundred years ago, 40,000 terran were sent to the korprulu sector. Within the first 100 years, their would be a period of instability. Factoring in both the alien environment with the increased life expectancy, it would be logical that death rate is .8% or so, roughly what we have today, the hostile enviroment counterbalancing vastly improved med tech. Birth would be high, lets put the average at 5, something comparable to developing nations today. (it is higher, because the terran population can afford to sustain this rapid growth because of vastly improved tech and a planet of untapped resources). Lets assume five generations are created within the century, something else comparable to developing nations.
After a century, we get 125,000,000 people, factor in the death rate, and we get roughly 85 million left standing.
The next 175 years, the population should stabilize to say, 3 births, but the death rate would go down to say, .7%, kept up only because of wars, and 25 years per generation. All reasonable estimates.
That gives a whopping 65 billion people, and after factoring death rates, leaves us with 19 billion.
Factors that limit population size, like land available, and resources, are less problematic due to colonial expansion into several solar systems, terraforming, and tech like sustainable cold fusion.
Makes sense.
edit2: Yes, I know that most numbers I pulled are just estimates based on real world data, not blizzlore, all save the timeframe. A single +1/-1 in almost any field would alter the current population exponentially. But my numbers all make sense, and show that the terran population could be easily in the range of dozen+ billion. Even so, keeping the numbers with reasonable ranged, we could get populations between 5 billion ish up to 40-50 billion.
100,000 million...
makes no sense what so ever, unless infant mortality is ridiculously high. As in 50%+. And life expectancy was in the mid 40s. Which alone is just ridiculous.
You have to prove that the Terrans would have access to said materials and use it with in universe proof. The fact that the modern world can build reasonable nukes is not proof enough that they could easily do it better. So bring up proof, stop claiming bullshit without it.Quote:
Originally Posted by arthas
As for the radiation, so are humans. Whats your point? In lore, Zerg shrug off the radiation created by nukes. They have NBC protection, just like the Marines. They can only be Irradiated by intense radiation beams.
As for the nations, if a missile stockpile was detected, the Umojan Protectorate and the Kel-Morine Combine would also build these Nukes, and they would probably take out the Dominion after the first use of Strategic nukes. This way, they get rid of the empire that would have threaten them eventually. We already know that the KM Combine and the Umojan don't like the Dominion. If the Dominion uses those Nukes, they would find no reason to not use nukes against the other terran governments. Arcturus would try to become the de facto ruler of the System's Terran agencies through gunboat policy. Just with nukes instead of warships.
We know that the nukes are smaller than dropships, too small for the affect they give off during denotation. They would logically have to be larger if they worked on modern principles. So its not that odd, seeing that they are not like our nukes.Quote:
Don't you think that is a little odd for the other guy to be telling me they CAN'T Build nukes BUT CAN build warp drives and warships who are kilometers in length???
It does make sense, Blizzard doesn't make Starcraft just for Profit(that is WoW), and the lore is not in a mess. Its inconsistent in some places, follows some game mechanics too closely, and it does have population issues, but the lore is great work. Much better than the shit Warcraft and Halo lore are.Quote:
My point here is to prove that the Lore in SC is complete mess who aims ONLY in continuing the game and storyline of both Zerg,toss,terran colonists,even if none of it makes sense,it's all to make more and more cash for Blizzard...
Well, not exactly everywhere... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_an...cale_countriesQuote:
Originally Posted by arthas
In fact, in most places 1000000 millon is a billon. But not in USA, so they must be referring to 1000 millon people as a billon. Still a lot of people, but how else there will be so many populated planets? Maybe people lives to unusually high age, and have many children.
Do we know how many people were in the 3 huge transports?
.
There were 32 000 total people upon landing on the 3 planets in the K-sector.
32,000 humans from my count on three planets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starcraft Manual
Ninjaed again.........Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
And how do you know how big dropships were actually?????????? A modern missile let's say Topol-M is only 22.5 meters in lenght 1.95m in width and weights 47 tons. Capable of carrying 1000-1200 Kg of warheads...So basicly were still on square one...Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Archon
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r...2/dropship.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by arthas
Why do people get the impression that its either/or.Quote:
It does make sense, Blizzard doesn't make Starcraft just for Profit(that is WoW), and the lore is not in a mess. Its inconsistent in some places, follows some game mechanics too closely, and it does have population issues, but the lore is great work. Much better than the shit Warcraft and Halo lore are.
Nobody goes into the game development field expecting riches, and nobody goes into it not genuinely loving what they do.
SC lore is better because their has only been one SC game. Their have been four halo games and four WC games.
Well somewhere battlecruisers are said to be 11km in legth can you believe that? And considering that todays 'standard' warheads are between 100kt to 1 megaton,They are basicly still many times more powerful than the hiroshima and nagasaki bombs....Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Archon
Quote:
Originally Posted by arthas
Dude just chill; seriously.
I'll be the first to acknowledge that the SC lore contains some glaring inconsistencies but this one is a rather small one and not really worth e-raging over. Not only that but it's one that's rather easily explained/justified.
A nuke would typically detonate in the air or on the surface of a planet. Powerful enough and in sufficient numbers, they would only glass the surface of a planet rendering it inhospitable. In order to (conceivably) destroy a planet with nukes, not only would they have to be much more powerful than anything we could build today, but you'd have to drill several thousand kilometers into the mantle and detonate said nukes in the planet's core. And even then you'd need a frickin LOT of nukes. Granted, it probably wouldn't be beyond the Dominion's ability to build such weapons, seeing as how they already blow up entire planets during terraforming accidents, but just think about how much time and resources such a project would require. And that's assuming you were even able to clear the zerg airspace sufficiently to be able to carry out such a bombardment.
Oh and FWI, there was a bit of a retcon RE: the nukes that glassed Korhal. They weren't launched from Tarsonis, they were launched from orbiting battlecruisers.
And where i said they will destoy planet itself??? I know exacly how much energy it takes to 'blow' a planet and it's more enourmous then you imagine,BUT to actually cleanse every living thing on the surface takes MUCH less nukes ...I mean experts say that even a small nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan using only small nukes in few kilotons can make changes in the climate that will affect crops globaly and bring a crisis more terrifiing than we know ! , And please read more about effects of fission bombs then try to 'chill'Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonjunkie
In some sources says they were launched from Tarsonis and in others from 20battlecruisers...And why do they need to be in orbit exacly??? You do realise that you are not making any sense?
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Originally Posted by arthas
Then let me ask you this. The protoss, as we both know, have 'purified' numerous worlds in their attempt to erradicate the zerg. And their ships DO have enough power to burn a planet all the way to it's core. And as we know, the results have thus far proved....unsatisfactory.
Now if the protoss, with their superior technology, have been unsuccessful in annihilating the zerg this way, does it make sense that the terrans could do a better job?
If I'm not mistaken, it did work. However, Tassadar eventually refused to continue doing so as it also killed the Terran colonists in the process. As for nuking Char, would it also take out the network of tunnels under the planet's surface?Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonjunkie
Ultimately, Starcraft, like all other fiction, follow the system where logic and real world facts are superceded by canon and lore which are in turn superceded by the demands of the plot. Hence, as the plot requires the conflict to continue and actual battles occurring between the three races, casualty-free solutions such as nuking the enemy and purifying planets simply aren't an option.
I already explained why the Protoss could not simply purify Char. Its perfectly understandable due to allocation of proper resources and the squabbles of political religious-zealot rulers.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. peasant
That isn't really retcon. Nothing says that both can't be right.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonjunkie
This has an easy solution: as the Protoss can pretty much warp right next to the planet and purify it, obviously the Zerg have some way of stopping them from doing it.
Being the central point of the swarm, Char would be heavily guarded with creatures flying around the planet to stop any attempt to attack it. They have sensing organisms that could detect something approaching, and get an early warning.
My point is that if the Zerg still exist, they obviously have a way to stop the worst their enemies can throw at them. If nothing contradicts that idea, it's probably what happends.
In order to engage in orbital bombardment, you need to be actually in orbit. Good luck doing that with a bajillion mutalisks.
OMG why the hell do i need orbit? When you can engage from much far? I mean doesn't it feel odd to travel between light years but have no weapons that can hit from outer orbit or let say 2 times futher??? And do you realise that nothing living can be in vacuum for more then a minute or so??? except probably bacteria who can survive what....an hour? But sticking to 'the Lore' i guess Zerg can,ok for that BUT How exacly can a organic 10 meter or something like that creature travel 10km/s or even faster??? Maybe it has 146 000 kg of fuel stored,maybe they can do that either??? Maybe....Quote:
Originally Posted by newcomplex
Protoss ships do bombard planets from half of the planet's diameter away(The beam goes through the planet all the way to the other side to boot). We don't know exactly what the maximum range of their weapons are though. They probably just wanted to make sure no large amount of Zerg escaped from the planet when they purified Mar Sara and the such. There is a perfectly good reason why Char is not purified.Quote:
Originally Posted by arthas
If your seriously arguing this, why are you arguing lore????Quote:
And do you realise that nothing living can be in vacuum for more then a minute or so??? except probably bacteria who can survive what....an hour? But sticking to 'the Lore' i guess Zerg can,ok for that BUT How exacly can a organic 10 meter or something like that creature travel 10km/s or even faster??? Maybe it has 146 000 kg of fuel stored,maybe they can do that either??? Maybe....
We know that Mutalisks can operate in space fine, do we know how? No. We also know that the Zerg have FTL Spore cannon launchers. How? We don't know. Im sure any reasoning behind it would be bullshit anyways. Suffice to say, it has something to do with Vespene gas. I'm sorry if I sound offensive, Im not trying to.
Patriot missile defense systemQuote:
Originally Posted by arthas
OMGMGMWMDWAMDMD SKY IS FALLING...Quote:
Originally Posted by arthas
Seriously calm down....just take the lore at face value or don't.
And yeah, we already have stuff that detonated missles in the air with lazers.
it really is falling ! And do you realise that whole laSer vs missile has never worked in a real situation??? And i don't know why are you telling me to calm down while you on the other hand are talking complete bull****Quote:
Originally Posted by newcomplex
well, since my last post appears to have been looked over, here is the article:Quote:
Originally Posted by arthas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_missile_defense
Missile defense is real, and one can only imagine what new kind of anti-ballistic missile (ABM) systems will be around in 500 years. Though it is not addressed in this game, it is most likely possible they are able detect incoming nuclear devices (as they do contain radioactive material) from long distances. This combined with ABM systems would make orbital control vital before launching a nuclear strike. This breaks down slightly in the game because the game doesn't include both the surface and space in one level, but one can suspend their disbelief for that.
No need to turn into a child, this is a forum for grown-ups. If arthas is so wrong, remember the old adage "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink" if he doesn't accept the truth after being shown all the facts, either he's a pigheaded fool or a troll. Either way don't loose sleep over itQuote:
Originally Posted by newcomplex
Arthas's argument basically boils down to "StarCraft contains some fanciful elements that would otherwise not seem possible in real life."
"omg if nukes are so strong now a days imagine what they can make in the future?!?!"
"omg the patriot missile defense system doesn't work in real battle situations, so that means in the future they won't be able to shoot down missiles!!!"
Yeah, I like your logic.
Forget about the patriot missile, I'd take the Phalanx CIWS instead. :D
Well isn't it logical???Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
And what about the patriot? I mean missiles have all sorts of protection againts lasers,emps,decoys,make manuevers in mid-cource, AND those lasers on planes which you see on TV can only disable short ranged missiles and ONLY in boost phase,And have to be above their target to do that,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_YAL-1
So missile defence is only good vs the so called 'rogue' states that have out of date technology and are 'evolving' their missile technology...and THIS has yet to proven....
No, because we have no idea if the human race went stagnant or not. We don't know the circumstances either, so there should be no guessing. Anyways, if Korhal had enough water as earth did, then each Apocalypse Nuke would be three digit tera-tons for having vaporized it. Heck, it may even be 1 peta-ton. But, until we see Korhal before it was bombarded, we won't know how firepower each nuke has. The Nukes are smaller than Dropships to boot, which probably means they use some kind of different energy release system.Quote:
Originally Posted by arthas
Well yes perhaps they can deliver more than the todays 6megaton/Ton,But it just seems very likely,In our 26th century they will probably be ,but In the SC universe maybe they don't or maybe do, who knows...Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Archon
Maneuvers mid course is something that a sidewinder or tracking missile can do, not a ballistic missile... hence the ballistic part. And patriots shoot missiles out of the air, who cares if its just a SCUD? Again, extrapolated 500 years into the future, the technology would be either improved until it was perfected (like the metal sword) or replaced with something better (how the metal sword was replaced with the firearm).Quote:
Originally Posted by arthas
For someone who keeps talking about technological evolution, you sure make it sound as if the laser tech won't evolve right along with everything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by arthas
The laser tech is still pretty much experimental. But it's no longer at "have to be above target" - They've been doing various tests on humvees last I checked.