Re: Infestor spell re-work
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aldrius
The Infestor is more like the SC1 Queen than the Defiler... the similarities to the SC1 Queen are pretty strong, the similarities to the Defiler are... what similarities? It's a zerg ground unit that cast spells? What else do they have in common? The Infestor has a really weak version of plague (which is also a really strong version of ensnare)?
Yeah, honestly, the Infestor is more like the SC1 Queen than the defiler by a long shot.
Give evidence. Fungal Bloom is not a "buffed" ensnare. Ensnare was a mere combat debuff. Fungal Bloom is an out-and-out disable. Fungal Bloom's SC1 cognate is Maelstrom. Ensnare has nothing to do with it, mechanically. And while Broodling is a summon spell with a twist, Parasite has no Infestor equivalent.
Neural Parasite's cognate is Mind Control (obviously, the former is much weaker). Again, more like a Dark Archon than a Queen.
The point is the Infestor is THEMATICALLY analogous to the Defiler and serves a similar support role in a practical sense. It is a much stronger unit, obviously, but that's because the Defiler spells ranged from the race-based overpowered to the nigh-worthless and they had to go. Thematically, Infestors don't track well with Queens; that dog won't hunt.
I do wish Blizz would at least put the old Queens in the map editor. I liked her sounds and her big-lipped goodness. Out of all the old units, she was the only one I wanted to really see upgraded with new graphics.
Re: Infestor spell re-work
Quote:
If the Defiler worked before, use the damn Defiler.
This argument could be applied to everything in SC1. It all "worked", so why not just use it again? Why make new games at all?
Quote:
Fungal Bloom is not a "buffed" ensnare. Ensnare was a mere combat debuff. Fungal Bloom is an out-and-out disable.
Ensare slows things down. Things that are not moving are by definition slowed down. So Fungal Bloom is Ensare only better. You can play semantic games about "debuffs" and "disables", but the simple fact is taht Fungal Bloom is a powerful version of Ensare.
Quote:
The point is the Infestor is THEMATICALLY analogous to the Defiler and serves a similar support role in a practical sense.
You haven't shown that in any way, shape or form. The Infestors abilities have no analogs with Defilers abilities.
Defilers are Tier 3. Infestors are Tier 2. Defilers use area control and denial abilities; Infestors are more about harming units directly.
SC1 Queens are Tier 2. Infestors are Tier 2. The Queen's Nest is required for a Hive. The Infestation Pit is required for a Hive. Queen abilities center around directly harming units. Infestor abilities center around directly harming units. Queens can fly, thus allowing them to flank an unaware enemy and attack specific targets with its spells. Infestors have burrowed movement standard, thus allowing them to flank an unaware enemy and attack specific targets with its spells.
Do I need to draw a diagram or something?
The only similarity is that Infestors and Defilers are ground-based Zerg casters. In every other way they are different.
Re: Infestor spell re-work
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SubterraneanArdor
Give evidence. Fungal Bloom is not a "buffed" ensnare. Ensnare was a mere combat debuff.
And what's Fungal Growth? The difference between debuff and disable is pretty tiny. The key thing the Infestor has in common with the Queen is it's an extremely MOBILE spellcaster. You fungal growth a bunch of units, burrow, and then run away. Maelstrom COMPLETELY disabled enemy units. Fungal Growth just stops them from moving. That's more akin to Ensnare's slow than Maelstrom's completely disabling the enemy.
The only REAL thing the Infestor has in common with the Defiler is that it can burrow. So in essence it can hide. But the mobility is the key thing that this affords, and Defilers were not very mobile units.
Quote:
The point is the Infestor is THEMATICALLY analogous to the Defiler and serves a similar support role in a practical sense.
But it doesn't. It works completely differently. Outside of the damage of Fungal Growth (which is nigh because Plague was useful outside of combat situations, Fungal Growth almost requires a nearby army) and the ability to burrow, the Infestor works very differently from the defiler.
The way the Queen would have been used, if it were actually useful, is for the Zerg player to move his queens in, cast their support spells (summon broodlings, kill key targets, slow down the enemy) and then run away. That's how the Infestor works too. You burrow in, pop up, freeze their army in place, summon marines or mind control key targets. Then when you're finished, burrow and get the hell out of there.
Re: Infestor spell re-work
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nicol Bolas
This argument could be applied to everything in SC1.
No it can’t. The point was that the theme of the Defiler -- the feel of the unit -- is basically the same as the Infestor. It’s the unit that represents the body horror aspect of the Zerg. Blizzard didn’t make the Infestor different enough thematically to avoid that comparison. The same can’t be said of every other unit in SC2 or in any other game. You overreach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nicol Bolas
Ensare slows things down. Things that are not moving are by definition slowed down.
Fallacy. If I pinch you and kill a cell in one of your blood vessels, I’ve killed a cell. If I smash your brains in with a shovel, I kill all your cells. Clearly, these two acts are basically the same.
There is no way that a slow effect in SC is identical to an immobilizing effect. Ensnare wasn’t nearly as strong as Maelstrom. I can’t believe the point is even being argued; you cannot use the abilities to the same tactical effect at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nicol Bolas
the simple fact is taht Fungal Bloom is a powerful version of Ensare.
Repetition does not create proof.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nicol Bolas
Do I need to draw a diagram or something?
Actual logic would be better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aldrius
The way the Queen would have been used, if it were actually useful, is for the Zerg player to move his queens in, cast their support spells (summon broodlings, kill key targets, slow down the enemy) and then run away.
The way the Queen was used when I used her was to harass, distract, and eliminate threats before my army actually engaged a foe, which meant that the queen wasn’t backed by an army at the time in the first place, your “would have been used” notwithstanding.
Re: Infestor spell re-work
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SubterraneanArdor
There is no way that a slow effect in SC is identical to an immobilizing effect. Ensnare wasn’t nearly as strong as Maelstrom. I can’t believe the point is even being argued; you cannot use the abilities to the same tactical effect at all.
Fungal Growth isn't nearly as strong as Maelstrom either. Not by a LONG SHOT. Maelstrom completely disabled an enemy. No attacking, no spellcasting, no burrowing, no nothing. That's a lot more powerful than simply stopping movement.
Quote:
The way the Queen was used when I used her was to harass, distract, and eliminate threats before my army actually engaged a foe, which meant that the queen wasn’t backed by an army at the time in the first place, your “would have been used” notwithstanding.
So what were you using ensnare for then? Spawn Broodling would also make a much bigger difference IN a fight, than it would before a fight.
Anyway, the Infestor can do all that stuff too. Mind control an immortal to take out some stalkers, fungal growth some low hp marines or zerglings. It can be used out of combat too, it's just a helluvalot more effective IN combat.
Re: Infestor spell re-work
Quote:
The point was that the theme of the Defiler -- the feel of the unit -- is basically the same as the Infestor. It’s the unit that represents the body horror aspect of the Zerg.
We're talking about gameplay, not what unit better represents "body horror". That's why we were discussing unit abilities and their effects in game.
However, if you want to have that conversation, very well.
The Queen is far more of "body horror" than a Defiler. The archetypal example of body horror is a Xenomorph bursting out of someone's chest; it doesn't get more body horror than that. This is exactly what Spawn Broodling is. Parasite is basically infecting something with a big eye that watches whatever they're doing, not unlike the horrific Watchers in Babylon 5. Infest Command Center is basically a shorthand version of the way Xenomorphs corrupted and adopted human technology in Aliens.
Now compare this with Dark Swarm or Plague. Plague is just a disease. It may be fast-acting, but it isn't even a fatal disease; Ebola is scarier. Dark Swarm doesn't even rise to the level of horror; it's just a cloud of insects.
In conclusion, Defilers do not embody the body horror aspects of the Zerg. Certainly not as much as the SC1 Queen. So, if the theme of the Infestor is body horror, then clearly this is an extension of the SC1 Queen's theme, not the Defiler.
Quote:
If I pinch you and kill a cell in one of your blood vessels, I’ve killed a cell. If I smash your brains in with a shovel, I kill all your cells. Clearly, these two acts are basically the same.
I don't see how that changes anything.
You see, the point wasn't that the two were the same. It was that one is a greater version than the other. It is in the case you describe, and it is in the case of Ensare vs. Fungal Growth. You're using violent imagery to argue for a moral difference, that stopping is somehow more viscerally repellent than slowing and thus constitutes a different thing.
From an objective perspective, killing a lot of cells is just killing individual cells a lot.
And I take issue with your needlessly violent imagery in your analogy; you don't need to threaten people with bodily harm (specifically "you" meaning "me"); other imagery can fail to make your case just fine ;)
Quote:
There is no way that a slow effect in SC is identical to an immobilizing effect.
Nobody said identical; we said more. That is, that more of one leads inevitably to the other. What is the difference between immobilization and slowing? An infinitesimally small amount. If Ensare slowed units down to one pixel of motion an hour, it would clearly not be an immobilizing effect; it would be an extreme slowing. However, the effects would be indistinguishable from immobilization.
So where do you draw the line? How do you argue that reducing speed to X is the line between mere slowing and actual immobilization?
If you slow something down enough, it is indistinguishable from stopped for all gameplay purposes.
Quote:
Actual logic would be better.
I noticed how you ignored the list of similarities between Infestors and Queens and the list of dissimilarities between Infestors and Defilers. I'll assume that means that you accept these as facts and thus your argument has failed.
Re: Infestor spell re-work
After watching a couple of videos, Neural parasite works really well. It just needs to be fixed a lil bit. Leaving the infestor vulnerable while doing it its a little bit unfair. The ghost can cast all its "Spells" while cloaked. No other caster is vulnerable while casting, in the way that no caster has spells that needs to be channeled (maybe the nuke can count, but as i said, it can be casted while invisible).
I say make the infestor be able to cast its spells while underground. Its no big deal. And I turn again to the ghost example.
Fungal growth is no big deal. Its just a more powerful ensare. As i said a while ago, it may be very useful in-game, with a loooooot of value, but its just a new name for a standard RPG spell. Not new, not creative. Boring.
And the infested marine. I think the community already said everything about this spell. I saw an idea were the infestor was able to "Devour" an enemy unit. Then lets say, while inside, the infestor assimilates the unit DNA, and then it can produce the same unit but infested, being those units Marines, Zealots or.... well there is the fail in this... what happens with zergs??? Infested zergling????? Banelings???? Larva????
Well those are my thoughts. Glad to share with all. See ya.
Re: Infestor spell re-work
Someone post his thoughts about the infestor, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=115102.
Finally the infestor is getting a spotlight.
Re: Infestor spell re-work
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KadajSouba
After watching a couple of videos, Neural parasite works really well. It just needs to be fixed a lil bit. Leaving the infestor vulnerable while doing it its a little bit unfair. The ghost can cast all its "Spells" while cloaked. No other caster is vulnerable while casting, in the way that no caster has spells that needs to be channeled (maybe the nuke can count, but as i said, it can be casted while invisible).
Mind control is REALLY strong. There needs to be a downside. Granted, it makes it IMPOSSIBLE to mind control siege tanks or colossi.
Quote:
I say make the infestor be able to cast its spells while underground. Its no big deal. And I turn again to the ghost example.
The ghost example doesn't work. The ghost doesn't even actually have all that many spells. And none of the spells it does have are all that decisive. Not nearly so much as the Infestor's spells are. (Well, with the exception of EMP.)
Also the ghost gobbles up it's cloaking energy when it casts spells. So really, you're going to use cloak for two things: nukes and combat. So the ghost isn't really a 'cloaked spellcaster' such as it is.
And anyway, allowing the Infestor to cast spells while burrowed would be UNBELIEVABLY ridiculous. Their spells would need to be nerfed, and a lot of the excitement with the unit would be lost.
Quote:
Fungal growth is no big deal. Its just a more powerful ensare. As i said a while ago, it may be very useful in-game, with a loooooot of value, but its just a new name for a standard RPG spell. Not new, not creative. Boring.
Um... I guess. It's a pretty fun spell to use against an opponent. I'm not sure why it 'being a new name for a standard RPG spell' trumps it being really fun and useful in-game.
Bleh, the amount of people who think an infestor can mind control a colossi is nuts. A 9 range unit that can 3-shot an infestor isn't going to get mind controlled... the infestor is going to waddle up, get spotted, and then get killed. Unless they get careless with their colossi.
Re: Infestor spell re-work
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aldrius
The ghost example doesn't work. The ghost doesn't even actually have all that many spells. And none of the spells it does have are all that decisive. Not nearly so much as the Infestor's spells are. (Well, with the exception of EMP.)
Also the ghost gobbles up it's cloaking energy when it casts spells. So really, you're going to use cloak for two things: nukes and combat. So the ghost isn't really a 'cloaked spellcaster' such as it is.
And anyway, allowing the Infestor to cast spells while burrowed would be UNBELIEVABLY ridiculous. Their spells would need to be nerfed, and a lot of the excitement with the unit would be lost.
Um... I guess. It's a pretty fun spell to use against an opponent. I'm not sure why it 'being a new name for a standard RPG spell' trumps it being really fun and useful in-game.
Bleh, the amount of people who think an infestor can mind control a colossi is nuts. A 9 range unit that can 3-shot an infestor isn't going to get mind controlled... the infestor is going to waddle up, get spotted, and then get killed. Unless they get careless with their colossi.
Oh the "little" exception of EMP, oh phew... :rolleyes:
Oh, and putting a nuke in your face (not a spell, but casted by the same unit that has EMP and Snipe, so it can't be put aside). Oh phew again... :rolleyes:
And about the excitement being lost, i dont know but it doesnt excites me to see my units being killed by ur units, rather than watch UR units being killed by UR own units, and you being able to do nothing. Now thats fun. You must be a very serious person...
And of course, there needs to be balance, one thing for another... i dont see why not.
Also stop following me through the threads.... hehehhe :cool:
Follow me if u can... PUFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF *vanishes*
