Terran - Planetary Fortress

The "planetary fortress rush" is a somewhat cheesy tactic, which works on some maps, but I was wondering if it might be a viable strategy to build a planetary fortress at a choke point on the map in a later part of the game. 400 minerals for the command center and 100/100 for the upgrade doesnt seem that much for such a tough piece of guns and since its primarily minerals it seems a relatively cost effective thing to do. That way you can force your opponent to use other paths / methods of transport or switch to air tech instead OR to lay a trap for him if he must use a certain path.

Obviously this wont work well against terrans (siege tanks have a huge range which the fortress cant counter), but against a "roach fanatic" it might work and even Protoss Zealots and Stalkers will have problems with it.

Obviously the fortress alone wont stand a chance for long, but you shouldnt need much in addition to it.

Pros:
- relatively cheap cost
- no supply cost
- high splash damage
- forcing an opponent to tech-change (this is probably the biggest benefit if you already have the "proper counters" in place)

Cons:
- immobile
- no AA defense
- mediocre range of 6 ... enough against infantry, but not against mech

Viable choke points:
- a main crossroads which can be controlled by one fortress
- in front of the enemies base
- your own entrance

In a map where the natural is the base's only exit, you would need to build a CC hidden near the enemy's natural, land it there and upgrade it to a PF, before the enemy starts building there. Or just build and defend the CC at the enemy's natural. If you can do that, it's going to be difficult, if not impossible for the enemy to break that at that stage. He's forced to tech from one base to break that, and even then, you can send units to reinforce.

If that happends, i think he's seriously screwed. But if he builds the expansion before you can do this, you're in trouble. However, if there's a nearby expansion, you could land and build the PF there. Harder to defend later and doesn't block the enemy, but at least isn't a total loss, specially if it's a high-yield expansion.

Besides this being a cheese strat, I really can't see how this is viable.

Cost efficient? 500 gas and 100 gas is a huge investment in the early & even in the mid game. You're sacraficing an expansion for a risky offensive move? I don't see many people actually including this into an actual strat (besides cheese).

I don't see this working at all vs a zerg. I can't confirm but I'm sure spine crawlers have a longer range, plus you can't land on creep. If you wanted just to block his choke, a bunker with marines / mauruads is cheaper and more mobile

Protoss - well maybe. I cant' think of a ground unit that would be able to outrange a plantery fortress. That would technically render the PF useless if it was used for it's actual use - protection an expansion. Float it over, land it near a gateway / nexus and repair the piss outta it... maybe... maybe...


Someone try it!!!

I've tried Supply/2Refin -> FE/Dual PF and found it very interesting against Protoss. The counters to it are easily handled by mass vikings and provide you the ability to harrass quick swiftly.

... it also builds well into a mass nuke strat... but I digress.

From the games I have seen, one of the important factors in making a fortress powerful is the small army of SCVs mining near it who can stop and do mass repairs.

Not sure how effective it would be in a choke away from the minerals/workers.

Quote:

---

Not sure how effective it would be in a choke away from the minerals/workers.

---

Yeah, I guess it's too bad PFs don't produce SCVs or something ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Yeah, I guess it's too bad PFs don't produce SCVs or something ;)

---

Idle workers?? Never! Need to crack that whip and get them on resources. :D

Quote:

---

Idle workers?? Never! Need to crack that whip and get them on resources.

---

If you're going to spend 550/150 just on static containment, you're probably willing to spend some extra minerals and food to keep that containment active and impregnable. If you're going to do something, do it; don't go half-way.

So I've found lately there are a few players who start with a PF at their main. And then sort of build a very unconventional wall around it. It's very, very annoying, and as a zerg player there's not much that can actually push in and kill the damn thing at tier 1/2 (Well, mutas/corruptors but I pretty much had already gone everything BUT spire tech, so I didn't really have the money). I pushed in with like 24 banelings and then followed up with about 18 Hydralisks. The PF won.

I'm sure there were other things I could have done. Expanded a lot to get the money for spire tech, done a better contain. But I wasted a crapton of my army trying to bring that thing down and then lost the game...

Quote:

---

I pushed in with like 24 banelings and then followed up with about 18 Hydralisks. The PF won.

---

24 Banelings means 1920 damage. Even if only 20 made it to the PF, that's still ~1600. Was something repairing it?

Also, you should have gone for burrowed Roaches. Just burrow the one(s) that get hit and the rest get free shots. And with no scans (Turrets of course should be your first target)...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

24 Banelings means 1920 damage. Even if only 20 made it to the PF, that's still ~1600. Was something repairing it?

---

Hm, not actually sure how many it was specifically. And yeah, he had SCVs repairing it, and then he'd expoed while I was dealing with it. Shouldn't have let him do that.

Quote:

---

Also, you should have gone for burrowed Roaches. Just burrow the one(s) that get hit and the rest get free shots. And with no scans (Turrets of course should be your first target)...

---

Ah, I don't think my micro is that good. Really, all I had to do was keep a better eye out for his expansion and expand a lot myself. He was contained pretty well, and wasting resources repairing that thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aldrius

So I've found lately there are a few players who start with a PF at their main. And then sort of build a very unconventional wall around it. It's very, very annoying, and as a zerg player there's not much that can actually push in and kill the damn thing at tier 1/2 (Well, mutas/corruptors but I pretty much had already gone everything BUT spire tech, so I didn't really have the money). I pushed in with like 24 banelings and then followed up with about 18 Hydralisks. The PF won.

I'm sure there were other things I could have done. Expanded a lot to get the money for spire tech, done a better contain. But I wasted a crapton of my army trying to bring that thing down and then lost the game...

---

I know this, in fact, I've used it for my nuke rush build. It allows you to not worry about much as I've seen it personally take down at least 20 roaches on it's own with some solid scv micro. (Turn on autorepair, select planetary fortress, alternate O and D when you need to protect the SCVs)

It's rather efficient.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pick

Idle workers?? Never! Need to crack that whip and get them on resources. :D

---

Who said they need to be idle? If the enemy cannot approach the PF, you can pretty much mine from there!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Norfindel

Who said they need to be idle? If the enemy cannot approach the PF, you can pretty much mine from there!

---

Sometimes people expand pretty late or dont start with their natural expo. It should be pretty insulting to use a PF in your enemies natural and you could mine there too.

Obviously the fortress alone would never work, but as the centerpiece of a bunch of fortifications; at least one AA tower should be there to give air defense and detect DTs or burrowing roaches, maybe a bunker for M&Ms and one or two sieged tanks. The whole point is to make a dangerous area for your enemy or to force that tech switch. It would also give a nice fallback position where your repair SCVs are waiting for your mechanical units after they assaulted the enemy and didnt succeed.

It is also one of the tactics where the improved armor for buildings might help a lot. Sadly there is only one level of "building armor" and this cant compete with the offensive upgrades of the units. So that makes it somewhat worthless.

A question I have though: Can the PF still load SCVs (for sefekeeping and to lure the enemy into thinking there was no repair crews around)? The description of the Neosteel Frame upgrade mentioned in their entry for the PF at
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Planetary_fortress
seems to indicate it.

Lastly this is a "bunker technique" and that is the specialty of Terrans. Even though its immobile and cant be salvaged it still provides food and gives a tougher defense than a bunker with Marauders. So it is a viable thing for your base defense as well which doesnt cost population. Think of it as an "oversized ground attack turret" and you know what I mean. Tanks and bunkers and so on are pretty easily sniped by a good opponent, but the PF needs a large force to crack it. The time and effort spent by the enemy might even be worth it in the end.
20 banelings = 500 minerals for the zerglings + 500/500 for the baneling mutation is more than the 500/100 for the PF. Even without repairing it and the fortress getting destroyed you just had to sacrifice the materials and one SCV to build it, while all your factories and barracks can continue pumping out troops.

First, Rabiator, I don't mean any disrespect with your opinions but it's important to clarify the importance and power of the upgrades that you mentioned "could suck".

1. The building armor upgrade is SUBSTANCIAL against earlier teirs and makes a difference later. What you don't realize is that with 1 level of upgrades, you get +2 armor (which is the equivelent of 2 armor upgrades for other units) it comes out significantly faster and costs overall less. This changes all buildings up to 3, except for the PF which starts with 3, upping it up to 5.

2. The second upgrade you mention is situational, if you have about 10 scvs at it, it works great to protect them (as it doubles their bunkerability for them, upgrading slots from 5 to 10.) As I mentioned in my above comment, this is how you keep your scvs alive when microing. Put all 10 on autorepair.. use O to load them if they get under fire, resetting the attack to the fortress and IMMEDIATELY hit D to unload them. They pop out and immediately auto-repair the fortress. They simply don't have a benefit to target the SCVs, and if you have the armor upgrade, it creates quite a connundrum for them.

There are quite a lot situations where the enemy CAN´T allow you to take a expansion, especially a High-Yield one. PF´s are ideal there, especially with all the according upgrades. Remember that you will need Turrets which fortunately benefit from the same upgrades. Bunkers as well if you need them too.

I have a feeling aggressive use of the PF is going to be the go-to noob-bashing strategy.

So you can still load SCVs into a PF — in fact, you can load the normal 5 plus 5 more?

Awesome. What about the OC? Does it still lose its ability to load SCVs?

Quote:

---

you can load the normal 5 plus 5 more?

---

You only get the extra 5 with Neosteel Frames.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aldrius

So I've found lately there are a few players who start with a PF at their main. And then sort of build a very unconventional wall around it. It's very, very annoying, and as a zerg player there's not much that can actually push in and kill the damn thing at tier 1/2 (Well, mutas/corruptors but I pretty much had already gone everything BUT spire tech, so I didn't really have the money). I pushed in with like 24 banelings and then followed up with about 18 Hydralisks. The PF won.

I'm sure there were other things I could have done. Expanded a lot to get the money for spire tech, done a better contain. But I wasted a crapton of my army trying to bring that thing down and then lost the game...

---

I'm not 100% on this (as I don't have a key myself), but couldn't you use a Corruptor's Corruption ability to prevent the PF from shooting at your ground forces? I don't know a lot about the ability, but as I understand it should shut down the building, and let your ground forces get through without taking casualties from it's guns. (has anybody tested this?)


X :cool:

Quote:

---

but couldn't you use a Corruptor's Corruption ability to prevent the PF from shooting at your ground forces?

---

Yes, you could. Though it only lasts 30 seconds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Yes, you could. Though it only lasts 30 seconds.

---

True, but if you stay mindful of the duration, you could have another Corruptor ready to re-corrupt it when the duration ends (dont know if you hit it early if the duration would overlap, or even if you can). You'd only need a couple Corruptors to make a big difference for your ground forces' ability to tear up the PF.


X :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XSOLDIER

True, but if you stay mindful of the duration, you could have another Corruptor ready to re-corrupt it when the duration ends (dont know if you hit it early if the duration would overlap, or even if you can). You'd only need a couple Corruptors to make a big difference for your ground forces' ability to tear up the PF.


X :cool:

---

Well, the PF is earlier on the tech tree than the Corruptor. But i can see that counter working.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Norfindel

Well, the PF is earlier on the tech tree than the Corruptor. But i can see that counter working.

---

Ah, didn't take that into account.. :\ How much earlier do Terran usually get PF, as compared to Zerg getting Corruptors? I'm mostly wondering how likely you are to run into one before this tactic would be a viable solution.


X :cool:

mmm... let me see:

The fastest way to go PF is to get Engineering Bay, then you can do the upgrade. It's fast.

The Zerg needs Spool, Lair, then Spire for Corruptor.

The problem is that the Zerg would need to tech from one base, but the Terran doesn't needs to, and can probably even mine from the Zerg's natural.

Other statics defenses have 1 more range, maybe you can counter with them, specially because the Zerg static defenses aren't static :p

Ranged units at that tier have 6 or less range, the same than the PF, but maybe a mass of ranged units can do it. I'm not sure, someone test it :D

Quote:

---

The problem is that the Zerg would need to tech from one base, but the Terran doesn't needs to, and can probably even mine from the Zerg's natural.

---

If you let the Terrans build a 400 mineral building, and then float it into your natural, you deserve to be contained by a PF.

By the time they could even put a Command Center there, you should have taken your natural already.

Corruptors are for taking out PFs in their bases.

Damn that's a lot faster than I'd thought... I still think it'd be a really good tactic by the time you get even 1-2 Corruptors. (As Nicol mentioned just before I posted this). :P

I'm also wondering if, given that the cannon has to rotate towards the nearest target, if you could keep a ranged force "behind" it, and use Zerglings/Roaches to run up and take the shot as it rotates, before it gets to the ranged units (or drop stragglers from the main attack force, and run around it). Either way, it's a pretty micro heavy tactic, semi-similiar to the Marine/Lurker tactic.

I dunno if a Roach would survive a shot, but if they do (and the above idea actually works) you could burrow them in a rotation around the cannon, and kinda play whack-a-mole with the roaches to keep the PF cannon occupied.

Either way, I think that somebody should stress test some Zerg tactics vs. PF & upload the results. :D


X :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

If you let the Terrans build a 400 mineral building, and then float it into your natural, you deserve to be contained by a PF.

By the time they could even put a Command Center there, you should have taken your natural already.

Corruptors are for taking out PFs in their bases.

---

Yes, we are only theorycrafting this for the sake of it, but i don't think that anyone takes this strat really seriously.

If the Terran builds the CC near, and then floats it in place, he maybe could hide it, but would give a lot more time for the Zerg to build there. And if the Terran builds the CC right on the natural, he gives the Zerg less time to expand there, but the building can be stopped very easily by killing the SCV. With any of those options, it would be easy for the Zerg to expand before the Terran.

Still, i would rofl if i see that on a video.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gifted

First, Rabiator, I don't mean any disrespect with your opinions but it's important to clarify the importance and power of the upgrades that you mentioned "could suck".

1. The building armor upgrade is SUBSTANCIAL against earlier teirs and makes a difference later. What you don't realize is that with 1 level of upgrades, you get +2 armor (which is the equivelent of 2 armor upgrades for other units) it comes out significantly faster and costs overall less. This changes all buildings up to 3, except for the PF which starts with 3, upping it up to 5.

2. The second upgrade you mention is situational, if you have about 10 scvs at it, it works great to protect them (as it doubles their bunkerability for them, upgrading slots from 5 to 10.) As I mentioned in my above comment, this is how you keep your scvs alive when microing. Put all 10 on autorepair.. use O to load them if they get under fire, resetting the attack to the fortress and IMMEDIATELY hit D to unload them. They pop out and immediately auto-repair the fortress. They simply don't have a benefit to target the SCVs, and if you have the armor upgrade, it creates quite a connundrum for them.

---

I think I should apologize for my choice of words. They come from comparing the three possible offensive upgrades to mobile units with the one possible defensive upgrade for buildings. If you compare the "growth possibility" the fortress looses eventually. Even making it a +2 armor upgrade doesnt really help as that is the same amount of increase a marauder gets from one offensive upgrade ... or a Zealot or Roach. Granted there are not many people who upgrade much in the matches so far, but I think that will change over time. The fortress losing on upgrades is somewhat contrary to that term of "fortress" and maybe Blizzard could add an explosion when it gets destroyed as all the ammo blows up ... kinda like the broodlings coming out of Zerg buildings. So upgrades are good - as always -, BUT compared with the opposing upgrades they loose out ... AND I have yet to see a video where the terran actually gets the building armor upgrade or the bunker space.

Personally I think "Hi-Sec Auto tracking" is the most important upgrade to get if you go for an aggressive Fortress build, because it increases the range by 1 and that gives you first shot against many ground units which dont get a range increase. Also adding some buildings to create a choke would help a lot.
- Planetary Fortress: Range 6 + 1 with upgrade
- Hydralisks: range 5 + 1 with upgrade
- Stalkers: range 6 + blink to close in fast
- Marine: range 5
- Marauder: range 6
The positioning does not have to be at an expansion site and IMO it is much better at a cruicial position on the map ... primarily because many people do not expect stuff like this and might be stuck with relatively useless forces and tech for some time giving you even more opportunities to put pressure on them.

The thing is that while they are building up their regular forces and are getting more supply depots players often enough have 300 minerals to spare on making a CC instead of a supply depot and since you have to expand eventually it wont be a waste of resources in any case. If you find yourself in a situation where the opponent relies heavily on ground units you might as well go for it and force him to pass your fortress. Defending against Nydus and Warp Prism drops should be relatively cheap with a couple of Vikings on patrol around your base to kill the necessary Overlords and Warp Prisms.

So far I am a simple "eunuch" talking about SCII ... I only know how it should be done. Many of my wild ideas are too complicated to pull of reliably, but only heading towards my opponent in a straight line while pressing the fire button is kinda boring. :D

EDIT: One thing I would like to point out is that Zerg and Protoss both have base defenses against ground units which do not involve population. The only thing the Terrans have in that regard is the Planetary Fortress, but most people think of it only as a different kind of Command Center. So Terran is the only race, which is totally screwed by a warp-in, Nydus or drop when all troops have left the home base, beiing unable to leave automated base defenses against ground.

I actually found a video where the Terran is building a TRIPLE FORTRESS at a base and the results are rather disappointing IMO.

Part 1: (no real action)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E87h1KIuNOw
Part 2: Triple Fortress gets assaulted at roughly 7 mins and again at 9 mins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AavE5_3gfQ
Part 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uBRUgFE1XQ

So is the PF underpowered for what it suggests to be? This video seems to suggest it. The fortresses had at least the armor upgrade, no idea about the range one though.

Quote:

---

So is the PF underpowered for what it suggests to be?

---

Um, there were Brood Lords and upgraded Hydralisks there. Tier 2 and Tier 3 units, and the Tier 3 units couldn't actually be shot.

Planetary Fortress had better die to that kind of attack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Um, there were Brood Lords and upgraded Hydralisks there. Tier 2 and Tier 3 units, and the Tier 3 units couldn't actually be shot.

Planetary Fortress had better die to that kind of attack.

---

No question about that, but there werent really a lot of Brood Lords and Hydras and killing the Hydras took much longer than I would expect due to the really slow fire rate of the Fortress ... and there were two of them firing at Hydras. The 3-4 Brood Lords killed the Fortresses pretty fast ... too fast for my taste.

I think it would have taken longer to kill the Fortresses with an equal amount of Carriers, because the Interceptors are doing a lot of small shots (mitigated by the armor much more) and a lot of flying around inbetween. So I am still of the opinion that Brood Lords are somewhat overpowered (even though everyone whines about their cost, but Zerg have the easiest time to expand and gather the necessary resources ... so the cost is not a real issue).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rabiator

No question about that, but there werent really a lot of Brood Lords and Hydras and killing the Hydras took much longer than I would expect due to the really slow fire rate of the Fortress ... and there were two of them firing at Hydras. The 3-4 Brood Lords killed the Fortresses pretty fast ... too fast for my taste.

I think it would have taken longer to kill the Fortresses with an equal amount of Carriers, because the Interceptors are doing a lot of small shots (mitigated by the armor much more) and a lot of flying around inbetween. So I am still of the opinion that Brood Lords are somewhat overpowered (even though everyone whines about their cost, but Zerg have the easiest time to expand and gather the necessary resources ... so the cost is not a real issue).

---

There are like millons of Hydralisks there, and several Broodlords. If you take into account that Broodlings can surround the PF and get the shots instead of the Hydralisks, it's not difficult to see why the PF went down.

If the PF had survived that attack, it would be the most ridiculously OP static defense ever. It costs you 150m 150g and whatever the MULE would gather, and makes your expansion untouchable in the early game, and still a strong defense later, but you cannot expect that thing to win the battle vs that big mid/late game army by itself.

PF isn't THE solution to stop all attacks. It was clearly set up for a 3rd expo where it defends vs harassment.

Toss gets cannons
Zerg - spine crawlers
Terran - bunkers? No thx... The PF fits the role perfectly.

Quote:

---

Terran - bunkers? No thx... The PF fits the role perfectly.

---

I don't know about "perfectly". You're giving up an extra MULE/scan/etc. That's not a minor thing; Protoss and Zerg aren't giving up anything but current money for canons or crawlers.

Agreed, getting a PF instead of an orbital command for your first or 2nd base hurts you economically but I do not think the impact of getting a PF for a 3rd expo hurts the terran player. Add in the fact of just the sight of a PF discourages harassment compared to if it was an orbital command, ithink its safe to say
3 expos - 1 orbital command > 2 expos or 3 expos + more harassment when you have to invest in bunkers to cover all sides the expo.

its not fair to dumb it down like that REF ... how much you get harassed depends a lot on your opponents behaviour, and your unit composition & army presence to face up to that.

keep in mind that bunkers are salvagable..

opting for PPF over OC on a location is much more a strategic decision than it is an economic one; sometimes the extra defence provided by the PF will be priceless, other times an extra scan would be invaluable.. finally, if you end up losing much of your SCV stock, the minerals provided by MULE's from all the OC's put together will make a big difference, especially when youve just set up a new expo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by REF

PF isn't THE solution to stop all attacks. It was clearly set up for a 3rd expo where it defends vs harassment.

Toss gets cannons
Zerg - spine crawlers
Terran - bunkers? No thx... The PF fits the role perfectly.

---

What's wrong with the bunkers, anyways? They have fairly decent damage output, now you get extra range for units inside them, you can upgrade their capacity, and their armor.

Quote:

---

now you get extra range for units inside them

---

You always got extra range. Even in SC1.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

You always got extra range. Even in SC1.

---

Really? It's the first time i read it. Undocumented as hell?