Re: Mothership or Arbiter?
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Originally Posted by
Aldrius
It doesn't work that way anymore. Mothership cloaking is passive, not activated just like the Arbiter.
It's MOBILE. It hasn't had to channel it's cloaking ability at any point during the beta.
Guys, if you're going to criticize something can you at least get the proper facts? Especially with the beta out now, where everything is up to date.
*Shrug* I know that she's not drastically slower than the Carrier. They can move together reasonably well.
If you read my whole post, you would see that I acknowledged a mobility comparison in response to Norfindel's comment, in mild contradiction to my vote reasoning. Please allow a clarification:
I prefer my cloaker with better than average mobility. The mothership is certainly mobile, just not quite enough for my taste. The SC1 Arbiter could easily keep up with a scout fighter (before upgrade, at least) and outrun carriers. But I suppose we se a physics axiom at work: the greater the mass, the more effort must be expended to move the mass. Consequently, her lack of high speed is understandable. :)
Re: Mothership or Arbiter?
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Originally Posted by
MattII
When did that happen? Interesting development though.
I think like a year ago. ^^;
Re: Mothership or Arbiter?
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Originally Posted by
ArcherofAiur
I think my biggest problem with the Arbiter mk2 is that Warp-In is a hands down better version of recall than recall. Its like at the start of SC2's development they said "hey lets give gateways a cool version of recall and then we can give the mothership something new and awesome like Planet Cracker."
Three years of failure later and it seems like theve resigned to just putting recall back on because #$%@ it what else are they going to do.
Still, the Warpgate only works with units produced there, and only when producing the units. With Recall you can move a lot of already-produced units instantly, no matter if they were produced at the Gateway, Robotics, or Stargate. It's a very powerfull spell. The only similarity is that units can appear at a target spot.
Re: Mothership or Arbiter?
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Originally Posted by
Norfindel
Still, the Warpgate only works with units produced there, and only when producing the units. With Recall you can move a lot of already-produced units instantly, no matter if they were produced at the Gateway, Robotics, or Stargate. It's a very powerfull spell. The only similarity is that units can appear at a target spot.
I said this in a recent debate over at BNET on this issue
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There is already way too much mobility in Starcraft2 to the point where abilities are becoming redundant and racial diversity is begining to suffer. However when you try to talk about it you just get people saying "No there is [insert tiny difference]. Therefore there is no overlap!"
It really feels like one of the core tenets that made Starcraft so great has been forgetten: Concentrated Coolness
Re: Mothership or Arbiter?
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Originally Posted by
ArcherofAiur
I said this in a recent debate over at BNET on this issue
The Protoss had always have mobility and Recall, so what's your point?
Re: Mothership or Arbiter?
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Originally Posted by
Norfindel
The Protoss had always have mobility and Recall, so what's your point?
That there is too much mobility in Starcraft2 to the point where abilities are becoming redundant and racial diversity is begining to suffer.
Concentrated Coolness
Re: Mothership or Arbiter?
@Archer and Norfindel:
I agree with part of Archer's argument here, at least on the grounds that in any RTS, overlap of roles and races is pretty much inevitable. We must realize, each in our own way, that the diversity we seek will be largely in appearance and in minor nuances of unit to unit functionality. I cannot comment fully on the effects of mobility unitl I actually play SC2, but the mobility increases can be said to be blurring some of the differences, but not all.
Example of no blurr: An Ultralisk, seige tank and Colossus will each be used as heavy assault/seige engine type units, but just how that unit does it differs. The tank and colossus have range while the Ultra is "up close and personal." And the colossus and tank differ in that the colossus does not have to immobilize itself to bring its strongest attack to bear. Thus we have a coexistence of functional and racial overlap with elements of diversity.
Example of blurr: Marines/zerglings/zealots. The blurr here existed pre-SC2 to an extent w/ the overlap of the upgraded crackling vs stimpack vs Zealot leg enhancements. In SC2, with charge, blurr between stimpacked marines/infantry and a charged zealot is increased. Any blurr with zerglings is unchaged.
Example of a completely new wrinkle: Viking/Muta/Phoenix. Mutas are largely unchanged. There are many videos showing the Viking filling the roles of the old Goliath and Wraith (minus situations where cloak would have been handy, that goes to banshee). The Phoenix's anti-grav ability is another wrinkle. In this matchup of what appear to be the primary first-choice air units, we can see new diversity being introduced, i.e. new Concentrated Coolness
In effect, both of you are right and wrong, depending on the example.
I have to give Blizz some credit on how they bring this dynamic within the game. There is more diversity in Starcraft than any other RTS I have played, and SC2 looks equally so, so long as we miminimize comparisons between the two to those that are appropriate.
Re: Mothership or Arbiter?
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Originally Posted by
flak4321
@Archer:
I agree with your argument here, at least on the grounds that in any RTS, overlap of roles and races is pretty much inevitable. We must realize, each in our own way, that the diversity we seek will be largely in appearance and in minor nuances of unit to unit functionality.
@Archer and Norfindel:
Example: An Ultralisk, seige tank and Colossus will each be used as heavy assault/seige engine type units, but just how that unit does it differs. The tank and colossus have range while the Ultra is "up close and personal." And the colossus and tank differ in that the colossus does not have to immobilize itself to bring its strongest attack to bear. Thus we have a coexistence of functional and racial overlap with elements of diversity.
I have to give Blizz some credit on how they bring this within the game. There is more diversity in Starcraft than any other RTS I have played, and SC2 looks equally so, so long as we miminimize comparisons between the two to those that are appropriate.
As in most cases its a question of degree. I think that the degree of overlap between the mass recall and warp-in is far too much for Blizzards usual high standards of quality. This overlap was perfectly exemplfied in a recent BNET thread where a poster told how the mothership allowed for unique tactics like dropping in the enemies base. It was soon pointed out to that person that this was a warp-in tactic already.
Re: Mothership or Arbiter?
Without question. We could discuss this for hours, citing example after example, with varying degrees of overlap, and still not reach any goal. Overlap is inevitable. We as the players must find ways to make each instance unique in how we use or respond to them. Sure, mothership recall and warp-in overlap in function, but which is easier or more efficent to use and which can be used first? This would be a matter of battlefield circumstance and personal preference, no? Can you imagine a simultaneous use as some players have been using Nydus networks?
Re: Mothership or Arbiter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
flak4321
Without question. We could discuss this for hours, citing example after example, with varying degrees of overlap, and still not reach any goal. Overlap is inevitable. We as the players must find ways to make each instance unique in how we use or respond to them. Sure, mothership recall and warp-in overlap in function, but which is easier or more efficent to use and which can be used first? This would be a matter of battlefield circumstance and personal preference, no? Can you imagine a simultaneous use as some players have been using Nydus networks?
Alternatively, Blizzard could push the envelope and further improve upon the racial and unit diverisity that made Starcraft so great. There is a reason the Mothership wasn't unvieled with Mass Recall.
Re: Mothership or Arbiter?
TBH I would've liked to see global spells added to the UI the way Company of Heroes had it. Build a mothership, now you have access to certain spells that can be used anywhere on the map. Then balance the spells so that they are able to be used anywhere (ala Comsat) without being uber imbalanced. Nothing like Vortex or Time Rift in its current incarnations, but more along the lines of how Mass Recall already works (works anywhere on the map, tied to the Mothership).
Something like a temporary movement-speed buff (aoe) spell or a buff (aoe) that allows 3X shield regen in combat could be interesting. It's not impairing the enemy but more for boosting and protecting your own units.
Just throwing ideas out there.
Re: Mothership or Arbiter?
Personally I'd like to see the Mothership have a Nydus-like mechanic instead of recall. A channeled one to one wormhole to let Protoss units slip through. The wormhole would have very low HP and take a few seconds to establish, but it would be stable and permanent as long as the mother ship channeled it. Or something cool like that.
Re: Mothership or Arbiter?
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Originally Posted by
DemolitionSquid
Personally I'd like to see the Mothership have a Nydus-like mechanic instead of recall. A channeled one to one wormhole to let Protoss units slip through. The wormhole would have very low HP and take a few seconds to establish, but it would be stable and permanent as long as the mother ship channeled it. Or something cool like that.
How about allowing pylon power to speed up protoss movement? Or something cool like that.
Re: Mothership or Arbiter?
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Originally Posted by
ArcherofAiur
Alternatively, Blizzard could push the envelope and further improve upon the racial and unit diverisity that made Starcraft so great. There is a reason the Mothership wasn't unvieled with Mass Recall.
True that. We'll just have to see what other changes the beta has in store for us before Blizzard enters its polishing phase. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ArcherofAiur
How about allowing pylon power to speed up protoss movement? Or something cool like that.
I'm going for "something cool like that" in the vein of the diversity point: instead of speed, how about the pylon field conferring a shield bonus, i.e. a +1 or 0.5 buff?
Re: Mothership or Arbiter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DemolitionSquid
Personally I'd like to see the Mothership have a Nydus-like mechanic instead of recall. A channeled one to one wormhole to let Protoss units slip through. The wormhole would have very low HP and take a few seconds to establish, but it would be stable and permanent as long as the mother ship channeled it. Or something cool like that.
Let us look at Arbiter lore and remember that its cloaking ability required a wormhole/rift that the cloaked units were partially hidden in (SC1 instruction booklet). I don't remember the recall phrasage to include it, nor do i know where my booklet is :(. Therefore this would not be all that much of a jump :) .
Re: Mothership or Arbiter?
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Originally Posted by
ArcherofAiur
How about allowing pylon power to speed up protoss movement? Or something cool like that.
I know what you're getting at with Zerg speed boost on creep but its not the same thing, stop trolling.
I'm trying to evolve recall. Instead of sucking everything in and moving it under the Mothership just the Arbiter did, let the Mothership channel units from one place to the other with a fraction of the mobility of the Nydus Worm.
Alternatively, we could just turn the Mothership into a giant shield battery.
Re: Mothership or Arbiter?
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Originally Posted by
DemolitionSquid
I know what you're getting at with Zerg speed boost on creep but its not the same thing, stop trolling.
I'm trying to evolve recall. Instead of sucking everything in and moving it under the Mothership just the Arbiter did, let the Mothership channel units from one place to the other with a fraction of the mobility of the Nydus Worm.
How about coming up with new things instead of copy paste?
Re: Mothership or Arbiter?
Re: Mothership or Arbiter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ArcherofAiur
How about coming up with new things instead of copy paste?
Because "new" isn't always better. Better is better. I support new where its warranted, but sometimes all that's needed is a tweak. There is no reason you can't simply evolve a mechanic to get something new. Myself suggesting that recall become channeled is no different than giving a Dragoon the ability to Teleport.
Re: Mothership or Arbiter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DemolitionSquid
Because "new" isn't always better. Better is better. I support new where its warranted, but sometimes all that's needed is a tweak. There is no reason you can't simply evolve a mechanic to get something new. Myself suggesting that recall become channeled is no different than giving a Dragoon the ability to Teleport.
Come up with a better way than just copying the nydus ability.
