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(Bare in mind I don't play Protoss.)
The Dark Shrine doesn't research or upgrade anything for itself, nor does it unlock any new tech beyond Dark Templar. Is this acceptable? It sure doesn't feel right. It just sits there - it's a dead building. There's nothing else in SC2 or BW that feels quite so useless once built.
This is first week of beta. Wait a while and listen.
Queen's Nest can give the Dark Shrine a run for its money :p.Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
At least you don't have to get the Dark Shrine if you don't want to go for DTs, but if you want Hive tech, you need to get a Queen's Nest even if you don't plan on buildings Queens...and Queens are almost never actually built :p.
This response does not apply to this discussion. No beta testing whatsoever is required to show that the Dark Shrine does nothing more than unlock DT's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wankey
I'm wondering whether Toss players/people in general are OK with this.
Queens Nest researches Queen abilities. And while they are rarely used, they still have their moments to shine in BW.Quote:
Originally Posted by GRUNT
Terrans still have to get Raxes even if they're meching, or Factories even if they're not.
A more accurate comparison would be Ultralisk Cavern in vanilla SC (no speed or armor upgrade back then) or if SC2 required a 'Thor Building' that did nothing but unlock Thors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
And DTs don't? :p I'm pretty sure DTs will see more action in SC2 than Queens did in BW.
I definitely feel the Shrine could be better utilized.
What would you suggest? A dark templar specific upgrade (eg extra damage, speed, something like that)?
Is there anything that dark templar need? (I could also picture upgrades for stalkers or void rays, although that's more lore than gameplay, given how far apart these all are on the tech tree.)
You're missing my point. Once you get a Queens Nest, you can research Queen abilities and proceed to Hive tech.Quote:
Originally Posted by GRUNT
Once you get a Dark Shrine, you can get DT's.
That's it.
As is, it's an artificial attempt at forcing the Toss to have tech diversity.
Ditto. I think I've only built one once or twice out of 120+ games on the ladder.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
So not what I meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hav0x
I use DT's all the time, they're fantastic. The Shrine just needs to stop being so bland. At least the Twilight Counsel serves a greater purpose than the Citadel of Adun ever did.
I am sure it is like that because they have yet to test the dark templars simply because of not enough people trying out new strategies.Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
maybe the building should have an attack upgrade from one attack with standard cooldown to double attack with 2x cooldown (obviously adjust the numbers a bit).
this would be better for DTs as a hit and run unit...
the change in graphic would be the standard sc1 DT into the double-scythe DT.
Well, for the Stalkers, it would fit in the sense it could provide (or unlock) an upgrade that prolongs its utility into late game. Perhaps something like a +1 range, +X plasma shields or even a shorter cooldown for Blink.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimera757
I know. What I meant was that I would build it and use DTs more if the building was more useful than it currently is.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
They could always put the Dark Archon back in the game :D
seriously though I want new ideas, not recycled ones
edit:
actually that gives me an idea.
DT's themselves don't need any more help - BUT - Archons and possibly Stalkers do. The Dark Shrine could have researches for both units to help them carry into the late game. What those should be, I dunno.
This could also work lorewise as the Dark Templar could carry their Void knowledge into making the Archon merge more powerful.
Dark Shrine could have ability researches for the Archon on it.
Then it'd sort of be like the Dark Archon was still in the game...?
I actually kind of like this idea, but it's sort of unfeasible.
They probably are letting the shrine empty so that they have a place to add something in the expansion.
I REALLY, REALLY freaking hope they're not planning the game that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by sandwich_bird
A Blizzcast or QA session addressed this - someone asked if they were intentionally leaving things out DLC style and Dustin Browder gave a firm no. He said something like wanting WoL to be a complete game, and if Blizzard were to be hit by a meteor before the expansions were done, people would still be able to say SC2 was a great game.
I wouldn't want the Archon researches to be spells or activated abilities. That's the HT's gig.
I personally don't have a problem with a building that doesn't do anything else other than let you train a particular unit, as long as the unit is worth building. :]
Of course, I'm not saying that every building should be this way, but I think it does add a little bit of flavour to get a unit here and there that's just 'it' - doesn't have any special upgrades.
Agreed. It's more a question of finding the right cost/build time for it. Right now, if I recall correctly, it takes longer to build than a Templar Archives. Which is 100% wrong.Quote:
I personally don't have a problem with a building that doesn't do anything else other than let you train a particular unit, as long as the unit is worth building. :]
Dark Shrine should have the ability to shoot a ball of energy into the sky and then the ball explodes destroying the planet.
Hidden Content:
Idea for an upgrade:
All DT's start as 1-bladed DT
Upgrade gives the dual scythe making the DT have like, 25+3x2 attack.
So basically it adds 5+1 damage. Overall it'd be like, 50+6.
(Stats based off what the SC1 DT had, idk the stats for SC2)
EDIT: Stats now based off SC2 stats
DT should have the charge ability, would make them alot more usefull. I you look at them, they are just stronger zealots :P. If terran infantry can share tech (stim), then why not protoss?
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Originally Posted by imdrunkontea
im not exactly sure why, but i do think the DT looks a little weak and could use some kind of attack upgrade.. one more attack for a longer cooldown seems intresting, alternatively give them an upgrade for a big bonus to light or bio.Quote:
Originally Posted by Artanis186
am i wrong in thinking they have a tough time what with all the tough new tier1 units? marauders to slow them, roaches and even marine to soak several hits despite damage upgrades...
it would be interesting to see a Dark Templar research ability in the Twilight council (in other words, the requirements to build DTs would be this upgrade in the TC).. So if your opponent scouts your Twilight, and sees it upgrading.. They wont be sure if you are teching to get DTs or just upgrading zealot speed.. If they see a Dark shrine right now, its obvious what you are doing..
that may be abit too good for protoss though.
The problem is that the Dark Shrine unlocks one and only one unit at the last tier. So, the unit is designed to work at that tier, not like the units in lower tiers that need later upgrades to be worth using later.
However, if you see a Dark Shrine it's a clear sign that the guy went for Dark Templars. It's very readable.
As the building's cost can be tweaked to whatever is fair, i don't see a problem with that.
DTs are still amazing, so the building is still good though makes it easier to scout, a proxy darkshrine can be deadly. The building itself serves a purpose - lets you make DTs and if scouted lets them know you plan to get Dts. I dont think it needs 20 upgrades to be useful
The build time needs to be faster I think, though with chrono boost on that first DT you need to be careful with such things.
Well perhaps, to improve the Dark Shrine's 'readability' it could be cloaked.
Hopefully after one of the expansions, the Dark Shrine will contain the upgrades allowing the Archons to act as "Grey Archons" and have abilities.
Im ArcherofAiur and I approve this message :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Krikkitone
Is that inspired by the fanfiction "Grey Templar?" They would be greenish instead of blue or red?Quote:
Originally Posted by Krikkitone
I agree with OP. Dark Shrine need to have research for Stalkers, Archons and Dark Templars(or at least for some of them).
They could research for Dark Templars to have increased Attack Speed. Archons to get high Splash, or bonus to something. Maybe some spell. Stalkers could get reduce Blink Cooldown by 2 sec, or giving it range +1.
Those are just examples, but they could do something like that, I hope that this is only in Beta.
Those upgrades are kinda lame.
They've done a really good job making all the upgrades feel like big, powerful boosts, but not necessarily REQUIRED to use the unit.
In most cases anyway.
I kinda think the Archon should have feedback instead of the High Templar...
Yeah, I liked them when they had Feedback, they did in one stage of an Alpha build. Don't know, maybe they were Overpowered. They need one ability for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
And also, those upgrades aren't necessary. They are actually pretty much as other unit upgrades.
They're not necessary, just not decisive. A Stalker with a reduced blink cooldown or an extra range point isn't going to make a huge, huge difference. The other examples are just too arbitrary.Quote:
Originally Posted by RamiZ
How about not making Stalkers need air support to blink up a cliff with an upgrade?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
im not quite buying in to the "DT's are still awsome" tehy are expensive fragile units in an enfiroment thats generally more hostile than in sc1 all-be-it with mroe scarece detection (at least for zerg) ... this and the readability of DT tech warrants some kind of boost - rather from an upgrade than from the get-go, esp as the shrine doesnt have one.
that said, i definately feel the dark-srine should stay. the potential readability of DT tech should be good for teh game, so long as DT's arnt too weak.
this could be cool, maybe an upgrade to claok it? and anotehr upgrade, eitehr to the DT or sth else cool like feedback on the archon. (may have been removed for a reason but would be cool to see tried in beta & current archons look quite weak)Quote:
Originally Posted by Krikkitone
Well, they are. They most certainly don't need an upgrade. Though having one might be cool.Quote:
im not quite buying in to the "DT's are still awsome"
The Archives were split into Archives and Shrine to make a bigger tech choice and give access to each unit (HHT or DT) faster/cheaper at the expense of the other. I think giving the Shrine some sort of DT upgrade would be best, just like upgrades for the HT. A damage upgrade would work.
relevant to the subject is that DT apparently isnt labled as light n'or armored.. is it psionic? surely its biological?