Fungal Growth, Psi Storm, and Crucio Shock Cannon AoE

Just did this because I was curious :p. Some of you guys may already know this.

Both the AoE for Fungal Growth and Psi Storm is just slightly larger than the actual casting icon:

http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1267444437

http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1267444486



The Siege Tank shock cannon's AoE is quite large, but it only deals the full 60 damage in maybe about 1 unit in size (note how the marine which was targeted and 3 others nearby were vaporised). Units slightly further away from the centre of the blast take 30 damage. Units on the edge of the blast take 15 damage.

I noticed that Hydras actually do pretty good against Siege Tanks. The Hydras are most vulnerable when they're approaching the tanks in a blob, but once they start firing and spread into a line, the Siege Tank's splash becomes less effective (although it'll still of course do a lot of damage).

http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1267444540
The Marine you see selected is the one I ask my Siege Tank to shoot.

http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1267444575
Boom!

Also, here's a thread on TeamLiquid highlighting a very interesting fact of Siege Tank behaviour! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=114026

Great, just what we needed, Siege Tanks that intelligently distribute it's attacks :rolleyes:

I hope he's mistaken about the random shooting. They should target the nearest unit first.

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

Great, just what we needed, Siege Tanks that intelligently distribute it's attacks :rolleyes:

I hope he's mistaken about the random shooting. They should target the nearest unit first.

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They don't just automatically intelligently distribute them. You have to manually shift attack them in order for that to work.

i think this is good. it encorages micro by shift-targeting valuable targets or dense masses of voulnerable units.

so long as ST stats arnt broken, its a cool and rational mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

Great, just what we needed, Siege Tanks that intelligently distribute it's attacks :rolleyes:

I hope he's mistaken about the random shooting. They should target the nearest unit first.

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Not only that...

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Oh shoot... that is ridiculous. Siege Tanks don't waste their shots if you shift-click with them?

Jeez...

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Originally Posted by Hav0x

They don't just automatically intelligently distribute them. You have to manually shift attack them in order for that to work.

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They don't automatically distribute the attacks in the best possible way, but they still automatically distribute the attacks: there's no possible overkill.

At least will encourage using attack queues, but you cannot exploit overkill anymore, just send whatever units can take more damage to the front.

Still, it looks ridiculous, and it's far from realistic. They attack all at the same time, but can predict how many tanks need to shoot to kill the unit. That's before shooting.

I don't think it's going to hurt gameplay, or at least not much, however.

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I'd like to know the AoE of a baneling. They seem to suck when I use them :(

No need to complain about the reduction of the siege tank damage anymore. That should make up for it.

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Oh shoot... that is ridiculous. Siege Tanks don't waste their shots if you shift-click with them?

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Why? You told the Siege Tanks to attack multiple units, in a specific order. If the unit is already dead (as in, just shot by another Siege Tank), it can't and shouldn't attack it. This is simply an outgrowth of Siege Tanks being hitscan.

Note that this works with all hitscan attacks: Marines, Thor GtG, perhaps Immortals, etc. Any attack with a visible projectile (and thus has a time to impact) doesn't work this way.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Why? You told the Siege Tanks to attack multiple units, in a specific order. If the unit is already dead (as in, just shot by another Siege Tank), it can't and shouldn't attack it. This is simply an outgrowth of Siege Tanks being hitscan.

Note that this works with all hitscan attacks: Marines, Thor GtG, perhaps Immortals, etc. Any attack with a visible projectile (and thus has a time to impact) doesn't work this way.

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The problem, is that the unit isn't already dead. The Tanks shoot all at the same time. They somehow "know" how many of them must shoot the first unit to kill it, and so with the 2nd unit and the 3rd, etc.

Not necessarily bad for gameplay, but simply looks silly and not real at all.

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

The problem, is that the unit isn't already dead. The Tanks shoot all at the same time. They somehow "know" how many of them must shoot the first unit to kill it, and so with the 2nd unit and the 3rd, etc.

Not necessarily bad for gameplay, but simply looks silly and not real at all.

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Not being realistic, I am far better with this than Nydus Worm coming from Nowhere...

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

The problem, is that the unit isn't already dead. The Tanks shoot all at the same time. They somehow "know" how many of them must shoot the first unit to kill it, and so with the 2nd unit and the 3rd, etc.

Not necessarily bad for gameplay, but simply looks silly and not real at all.

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Its not entirely impossible, it just means that the Tanks have an advance computer system. :D

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Originally Posted by RamiZ

Not being realistic, I am far better with this than Nydus Worm coming from Nowhere...

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Originally Posted by Shadow Archon

Its not entirely impossible, it just means that the Tanks have an advance computer system. :D

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Since when does realism have anything to do with balance? Anything can be explained, but gameplay is much more important. That argument has, and nevery will make any sense, but why does it pop up so often?

In terms of pure gameplay, I don't think I like the new tank sysem too much. I feel like you should be hurt if you put your tanks in a perfect line, or if you're not scouting beyond your LoS (where your tanks can shoot but can't see). Generally speaking, I just don't like it when units do things that you didn't order them to do specifically. It sorta dumbs the game down, and ecourages A+move gameplays.

On a side note, I'm also sad that this type of mechanic also negates all sorts of beautiful plays where a player would sacrifice a couple of SCVs (or any other unit) to get his tanks in place in TvT for example. In general, this will make all tank battles 100% static, which is too bad imo.

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The problem, is that the unit isn't already dead. The Tanks shoot all at the same time. They somehow "know" how many of them must shoot the first unit to kill it, and so with the 2nd unit and the 3rd, etc.

Not necessarily bad for gameplay, but simply looks silly and not real at all.

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That's not how the algorithm works.

All games process unit actions in an arbitrary order, whether you perceive it or not. Thus, one Siege Tank, even firing technically on the same frame as others, will fire first. Damage will be dealt, and the unit will be killed. Then, the next Siege Tank gets a chance to shoot. If the unit is already dead, it can't attack it, thus it must attack something else.

This didn't work in SC1 because Siege Tanks were not hit-scan. They did not do damage in the same frame in which they fired, so multiple shots could be "in the air" even if it was overkill. Now that they are hit-scan, it is inevitable that this would happen.

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Since when does realism have anything to do with balance? Anything can be explained, but gameplay is much more important. That argument has, and nevery will make any sense, but why does it pop up so often?

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Well seriously, what does realism have to do with balance? We are not talking about balance but realism. Read before post! :p

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Originally Posted by Hammy

Since when does realism have anything to do with balance? Anything can be explained, but gameplay is much more important. That argument has, and nevery will make any sense, but why does it pop up so often?

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Wasn't exactly talking of balance, but of why people reacts that way from seeing the videos. Everything that is too different from reality triggers an automatic WTF response. It's unavoidable.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

That's not how the algorithm works.

All games process unit actions in an arbitrary order, whether you perceive it or not. Thus, one Siege Tank, even firing technically on the same frame as others, will fire first. Damage will be dealt, and the unit will be killed. Then, the next Siege Tank gets a chance to shoot. If the unit is already dead, it can't attack it, thus it must attack something else.

This didn't work in SC1 because Siege Tanks were not hit-scan. They did not do damage in the same frame in which they fired, so multiple shots could be "in the air" even if it was overkill. Now that they are hit-scan, it is inevitable that this would happen.

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I understand why it happends, but nothing is inevitable, unless hardware-limited. If you want the same behaviour, you could apply targetting and damage in two different phases. But i'm not saying it needs to be like in BW, just that the new behaviour looks weird. There are many ways to do it, for example:


for x {
y = chosen target for unit x
apply damage to unit y
if unit y life <= 0 then remove unit y
}

That wouldn't allow overkill, but it gives an advantage to units arbitrarily chosen to be processed first.



for x {
y = chosen target for unit x
apply damage to unit y
}

for x {
if unit's x life <= 0 then remove unit x
}

That would allow overkill, and doesn't gives an advantage to units arbitrarily chosen to be processed first.



for x {
y = chosen target for unit x (choosing algorithm discards units with life <= 0)
apply damage to unit y
}

for x {
if unit's x life <= 0 then remove unit x
}

That would not allow overkill, and doesn't gives an advantage to units arbitrarily chosen to be processed first.


The last one if probably closer to the one used, as it's the most fair. Doesn't allow the enemy to send a "sacrifice" first to be overkilled, however, but it doesn't really has to do that way, as long as there are good damage-soaking units.

If it were about realism i´d expect Tanks to Target MORE intelligent, not LESS. They still kill each other if there is a enemy very close.

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Originally Posted by unentschieden

If it were about realism i´d expect Tanks to Target MORE intelligent, not LESS. They still kill each other if there is a enemy very close.

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Oh, yes, in the battlefield you probably know the exact moment the enemy is going to die by the attack of another tank :rolleyes:

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Oh, yes, in the battlefield you probably know the exact moment the enemy is going to die by the attack of another tank

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Yes, when they get shot by one.

In the real world, generally, a direct hit by tank-class weapons pretty much kills what was being shot at. Tank battles are usually determined by who hits the enemy first: who has the better accuracy and position.

The only reason for multiple tanks to fire on a single target is to increase the chance of hitting it. And even that isn't necessary if you know where the target is; accuracy, even over miles, generally isn't a problem.

Oh my gawd this is awesome! YES!

I hated the overkill in SC1, this is just beautiful.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Yes, when they get shot by one.

In the real world, generally, a direct hit by tank-class weapons pretty much kills what was being shot at. Tank battles are usually determined by who hits the enemy first: who has the better accuracy and position.

The only reason for multiple tanks to fire on a single target is to increase the chance of hitting it. And even that isn't necessary if you know where the target is; accuracy, even over miles, generally isn't a problem.

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Tanks are generally moving, so shooting at them doesn't warrantees that it will hit. If it hits on a heavily armored part instead of a soft one, it won't penetrate, and ERA or some of the other defensive stuff can also ruin the shot sometimes. It's not as easy as pulling the trigger = enemy tank dead.

I doubt that the side with the numeric advantage would worry a lot about overkilling.

You know, I'm so used to tanks taking care of the job as is, I've never thought of ever microing them while in siege mode - Are we sure this cant be done via waypoints in the original SC? I dont have SC loaded to my machine at the moment, or I would test for myself.

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

Oh, yes, in the battlefield you probably know the exact moment the enemy is going to die by the attack of another tank :rolleyes:

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And seven marines cannot take out a sub-orbital capital ship firing from the ground with rifles.

SC is obviously not a literal representation of a battle, but a a representation. Look at unit versus capital ship or building sizes. Crucial victories are not achieved after ten minutes, building offenses and all, literally building defensive buildings half a mile away from the other sides defensive buildings.

In that same regard, several heavy artillery tanks firing at the same time are probably firing around the same time, with several MINUTES of difference between them.

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Originally Posted by newcomplex

And seven marines cannot take out a sub-orbital capital ship firing from the ground with rifles.

SC is obviously not a literal representation of a battle, but a a representation. Look at unit versus capital ship or building sizes. Crucial victories are not achieved after ten minutes, building offenses and all, literally building defensive buildings half a mile away from the other sides defensive buildings.

In that same regard, several heavy artillery tanks firing at the same time are probably firing around the same time, with several MINUTES of difference between them.

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Did you see the video? Didn't you thinked "ok, WTF just happened there"?

Anyways, i'm not against it, but just looks silly when it's used.

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Did you see the video? Didn't you thinked "ok, WTF just happened there"?

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No; I thought the Siege Tanks did exactly what they were told to: kill each of the units in turn. And they did.

That this happened faster than you might have expected is not the relevant part.

I realize it's much more predictable in terms of gameplay. It's just that it's strange to me that after queuing focus fire commands, no attack gets focus-fired.
Probably that's because i'm used to the way BW worked. The attack AI is orders of magnitude smarter in SC2.

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It's just that it's strange to me that after queuing focus fire commands, no attack gets focus-fired.

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But you didn't queue "focus fire" commands; there's no such thing. You queued a list of units that you wanted attacked by these other units.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

But you didn't queue "focus fire" commands; there's no such thing. You queued a list of units that you wanted attacked by these other units.

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You have a group selected and right-clicked a target. In BW that's focus fire, now it still means that, just that only the amount of units needed to kill the target will fire, the rest will seek another target. But i understand what you mean: internally it's just attack this, then this, then this, etc.

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