http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVkAm-smRK0
What are your thoughts?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVkAm-smRK0
What are your thoughts?
Too fast. Something needs to change either with Zerg or the other races.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crota
If I can pull Immortals out, I can usually roflstomp most Zerg players with that and Colossi.
If they live and tech Mutas then I die.
The default regeneration rate needs to be lowered, so perhaps Organic Carapace brings it back to nearly original (as of current default regen rate).
I think they could also make it so only IMMOBILE burrowed Roaches (maybe stand still for a few seconds, even with Tunneling Claws) can regenerate HP.
-Psi
Like you said - Roaches aren't OP
From my admittedly limited experience, the micro with Burrow only really matters up to early-midgame, where it can win a skirmish. However, from the midgame onwards, there's enough firepower out in the field that burrow micro with Roaches doesn't matter as much as it does in a smaller engagement.
Also, if the enemy has quite few Roaches, odds are, you'd be using Immortals and the Roaches would either be dead or too busy being burrowed to actually attack your army :p.
The proper counter to roaches is use enough firepower that their regeneration rate doesn't matter.
I'm pretty sure Zerg units regenerate faster underground... so if thats true, the only real problem here is how fast the Roach regenerates when its underground. If they nerf that or the Roaches armor by 1, i think that would be a step in the right direction.
Btw, i'm pretty sure stalkers are better against Roaches, but i can see why this would be a problem that leads up to a mutalisk strat overpowering even a good protoss player.
That test is both incomplete and inconclusive.
First: In what situation would one zealot be fighting one roach?
Second: Roaches only get their crazy regen when burrowed. As long as a roach is burrowed, it's not doing any damage anyways. The key to killing roaches is focus fire anyways (you should have seen them in alpha, when they had that same regen but while they above ground too).
Third: I would have loved to see that overlord spawn creep for us to see how quickly non-upgraded roaches regen on creep, and then, how quickly an upgraded roach does so.
However! This does bring up a valid point: Maybe fully upgraded roaches can get around too easily with their amazing regen while burrowed (T2 upgrade to move underground).
On a positive note: thanks for the test! :p
I fully agree with you. There should be a buffer in which the regeneration kicks in, after not sustaining damage for a set period of time. That's just ridiculous.
I laughed when I first saw in a stream how fast burrowed Roaches regenerated.Quote:
Originally Posted by PsiWarp
With Organic Carapace researched, burrowed Roaches do regenerate really, really fast. Leave them for a split second, and they will probably be at 3/4 of their total hp, if not complete.
I think this guy is an idiot.Quote:
What are your thoughts?
It's Tier 2. You can't get burrow until Tier 2. And the Roach can't attack while burrowed.
At Tier 3, with both burrow and Organic Carapace, it damn well better insta-heal. They can be one-shotted so easily. At Tier 3, you can expect utterly brutal damage. +2 attack upgrades have finished, and Tier 2 & 3 units will be seen in numbers. Thors that normally deal 45x2 will be dealing out 55x2; two of them make Organic Carapace meaningless. Siege Tanks will be dealing out 70-point AoE. Colossi will be dropping 27x2 damage AoE. Immortals will be dealing 60-point blows, with a pretty fast refire rate. Armor upgrades only mitigate a tiny portion of this.
The only hope for Roaches at Tier 3 is to force the enemy to one-shot them. Force them to focus-fire. And that requires very fast regen.
Theorycrafting? This... is... BETA!!!!
You don't get to call something OP unless you have actual in-game evidence of someone being able to abuse this ability. Unless you can show me top Zerg players consistently owning the hell out of people with Roach regen, there is no need for a change.
Creep doesn't matter for regen. I don't know where people get this idea that it does.Quote:
Third: I would have loved to see that overlord spawn creep for us to see how quickly non-upgraded roaches regen on creep, and then, how quickly an upgraded roach does so.
What do Immortals and Mutalisks have to do with anything that was said?Quote:
Too fast. Something needs to change either with Zerg or the other races.
If I can pull Immortals out, I can usually roflstomp most Zerg players with that and Colossi.
If they live and tech Mutas then I die.
Wow harsh words Nicol, but still you have your point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Forget the fact that the test was 6 food of zealot vs 1 food of roaches. Its not like Tier 1 units every counter Tier 2 or 3, unless you count marines with Stimpack against immortals, or marines against mutalisks, or Lings and Zealots against Sieged Tanks.
If I used an Immortal to counter the roach, that would TOTALLY be different.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOOfWIHl1qA
Crota
Yeah true, faster regen on creep was in alpha at some point, but it's gone now. I thought it was still in but I just tested that.
Nevermind the 3rd point then ;)
A) Creep heals buildings only as far as I'm concerned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
B) Was simply my small anecdote relating to the situation. I think something is going to change based on the amount of feed back but given the power of the situation, I would leave it as is because I felt Immortals were a decent counter. If you'd like I will just not post any of my thoughts on here.
Man, what's with those zealots. To be able to attack so long without getting tired is absolutely ridiculous. Slap a 25 energy cost on all that before it's too late.
But here's the thing Crota - above ground and in an actual fight, Immortals will rip through Roaches. Even Zealots with Charge can take on Roaches very well for cost. Both of these elements will force the Zerg to burrow his Roaches very quickly if he doesn't want to die, but the amount of DPS a Roach army can do drops very quickly once that starts to happen (a lot of Roaches will be in red very fast). In the end, you'll just have a bunch of dead Roaches, some burrowed ones, and more than enough Zealots and Immortals left alive to kill the ones remaining.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crota
Roaches shine the most in early-game skirmishes when armies are small and their burrow micro can make a difference. Later in the game, there's just too much firepower on the field for burrow micro to make as large a difference as it does around the early midgame.
I don't really know what can be done to balance this, though. If you nerf Roach healing by too much then focus fire and ranged units will just take them out like nothing. They won't be resilient to it at all. But if you keep it this high... it's er... well... kinda outrageous.
I think they just need to majorly rethink the roach personally.
It takes two Immortals to kill a burrowed Roach. How many burrowed Roaches does it take to kill two Immortals? Well, zero, because Roaches cannot attack while burrowed. So I don't know what it is you've proved here, except that Roaches are hard to kill when they can't attack. I don't see that being a particularly useful thing to me.Quote:
If I used an Immortal to counter the roach, that would TOTALLY be different.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOOfWIHl1qA
Crota
As I said, this is the Beta. Theorycrafting doesn't make sense when we have the actual game. If you are right about Roaches being overpowered, then you should be able to prove it in game situations. That is what matters, not artificial circumstances of 1:1 units.
If Tier 3 games vs. Zerg are about Roach regen, and this dominates all non-Zerg players, then Blizzard should change it. Otherwise, no.
I understand that Roaches don't deal damage while burrowed. I guess what I'm trying to show is how this can be easily abused.
Look at this Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nSE0...response_watch
Last two minutes you see 4-5 Psi Storms hitting those roaches. Psi Storm does infact hit burrowed units. Perhaps that best shows my concern.
Crota
OMG IMAGINE WHAT A PRO CAN DO MICROING A ROACH ARMY!!
Sure they can't attack while burrowed. But all you have to do is burrow the roach thats taking the damage, while the others attack, and repeat. Similar to how Yellow (I think?) microed the Stalker ability at Blizzcon '08!
Well Zealots attack at 8x2, Roaches have 2 Armor
so each Zealot does 12 / attack
1 was almost enough to counter pre-hive burrowed regen (it only went green again for occasional split seconds)
3 were just enough to counter hive regen
Now the stated problem is that 3 zealots can't kill one burrowed roach....
However, this is tier 3... and 4 zealots can kill 200 burrowed roaches.
Basically you need an actual small army to kill one burrowed roach, but that small army can kill a large army of burrowed roaches.
As for the Psi storm, well there the issue is the max hp of the roach, and the time between the storms
There were only 4 storms (the 5th one missed) spread out over ~30 sec. and the roaches were burrowed for about 20 sec. of that time
The roach can survive 1 storm directly, and it can survive 2 if it has time to regenerate 15 hp.
The Roach needs to regenerate 175 hp to survive a total of 4 storms, and 20 sec is enough.
Basically you need 3 psi storms one Right after the other to kill roaches... or 4 possibly if it is
So Roaches, like ultras are a counter to High Templars+Psi storm, they are also a counter to Zealots.
If artosis had had a few Immortals instead of High templar, or if he had more high templar and turned them into Archons, or even if he had gone Stalkers instead of Zealots, then he could have possibly handled them.
It was never going to kill it if it went back to green at any point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krikkitone
The roaches aren't going to sit there and let you cast 4 storms in a row on top of them. But anyway, Roaches are intended to be able to resist psi storm.Quote:
Basically you need 3 psi storms one Right after the other to kill roaches... or 4 possibly if it is
I think they could use some stat adjustment, but I don't think Roaches being able to resist psi storm is a problem. Their counter is focus-fire and burst damage, AoE and sustained damage shouldn't work. It'd be like if you could counter immortals with siege tanks. It's the exact OPPOSITE of what should counter Roaches.
That's why I said Almost, it would probably be something like 1.2 Zealots... so maybe 1 Zealot and one probe, or the Zealot with one more attack upgrade than the Roach had armor upgrades would Totally counter it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
That would Counter the regeneration.
Then some Extra damage is needed to actually kill it. (any extra damage above the amount needed to counter regen is what is used to actually kill the roach.)
Exactly.... although a Psi storm can help. After all if you can do ~200 AoE damage in no more than 1 sec, then it is a good counter for Roaches (5-6 Collossi..~200 each burst, wherever the 'streams cross'.. 3 Siege Tanks firing simultaneously, 2 HK missiles, 1 Nuke)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
I'd call all of those things 'burst damage'. Psi Storm is a sustained AoE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krikkitone
I see exactly what you said in the video: one player playing poorly. Artosis played too passively. The exact mechanism of his defeat didn't matter. It could have been mass Mutalisks, mass Hydralisks, mass Zerglings, a mix of these, fast-tech to Brood Lords, whatever. KHB had 4 expos vs. Artosis's 2. Nothing would have changed the outcome except for KHB getting up and walking away from his keyboard for 5 minutes.Quote:
Look at this Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nSE0...response_watch
Last two minutes you see 4-5 Psi Storms hitting those roaches. Psi Storm does infact hit burrowed units. Perhaps that best shows my concern.
If Artosis had an equivalent army, resource-for-resource, he would have had Stalkers. If he'd seen Roaches coming, he'd likely have Immortals and Observers. Just Stalkers, Immortals, and an Observer to spot would have ended that whole burrow-micro nonsense right there. A little focus fire, and the Roaches die quick and bloody.
I understand that you have concerns. I had concerns about Chrono Boost being available so early. But it doesn't seem to have caused any problems.