Having trouble dealing with counters in general

Hi folks, I'm not very good at Starcraft but I tried really hard to get good, but I joined the game a decade late and never really caught up. I couldn't get out of D on iccup. I really want to get good at SC2 - so I was ecstatic to get into the Beta.

I've been posting on SC2 Armory and the battle.net forums but there's way too many people who don't know what they're talking about.

(Note: I'm best with Protoss, so all of this assumes I am Protoss)

Anyway, I'm really having trouble winning. I feel like all of my games are trying to gather intel about what the opponent is doing, and building counter-units. I feel like I can't expand soon enough because if they choose then to attack, they'll have a bigger army than I. I scout early (around 9-12 psi depending on the map) and keep my scout alive for a long time. I deny scouting when I can, but I guess I feel like I'm still reacting to whatever the opponent is doing.

For example, I was playing a Zerg player. I scouted and saw he had Roaches, so I got a bunch of stalkers and a couple immortals. Once I got a sizeable force, I expanded. He attacked with his Roaches, and as expected I crushed them - he was able to run away with most of his force. I pushed out around the same time he was trying to expand (i killed the attempt) - but once I got to his base, he had a bunch of Hydralisks as well. I lost the battle and started rebuilding my forces. I built two Colossi and more Zealots. I started researching speed upgrade for the Zealots. I sent out an observer and saw he had a decent army burrowed - I figured it would be a good opportunity to snipe that army so I did. Figuring I had way better econ and he just lost a lot of units, I pushed into his base. Once I got there, he had a lot of mutalisks which I didn't expect, and he decimated my force. I started rebuilding and teching to Psi Storm, but he attacked with the mutalisks and killed me.


http://www.megaupload.com/?d=LJIWIQOJ

(I know he had a hidden expansion here, which was stupid of me not to find, but we still had relatively even economies throughout the match).

That battle really epitomizes the issue I'm having - not just against Zerg, but in any matchup where the opponent makes it difficult to get information. I feel like I'm scouting their initial build, making assumptions about what they're going to build, and building the counter to that. If I'm wrong, I'm screwed.

I really feel like I'm doing something wrong. Please help.

Thanks

Quote:

---

I really feel like I'm doing something wrong. Please help.

---

What you are doing wrong is countering what is, rather than countering what will be.

Take your Colossus example. You sacrificed valuable intel to take out his burrowed army. Namely, that you had Colossi. This is crucial intelligence that the enemy should only have when it is way too late for them to do anything about it.

The Zerg are the fastest race in the game at tech-switching. Swappable-addons, Reactors, Chrono Boost, none of that changes the simple fact that all Zerg need to shut down what you are trying to do is exactly one building. One building, and the resources to use it, and you're done.

That means that "way too late" for Zerg isn't that long. Granted, if he didn't have a Spire already out by the time you attacked, he would have likely lost (Zerg can't tech-switch that fast).

You have cloaked scouts. Use them. A lot of Zerg in SC2 don't remember that Overlords aren't detectors anymore. Just keep your Observers on the edge of his base and look for tech buildings.

If you see a Spire going down, call for a StarGate or two and pump a few Phoenixes. Also, add more Stalkers to your ground forces instead of Immortals. Hold off on the Colossi until later.

Your opponent knew what you were going to do because you kept making the right moves. You saw Roaches, so you made Immortals. You saw Hydralisks, so you made Colossi.

What this means is that the Zerg player was in charge the whole game. All he had to do was stop making Hydras and switch to the thing that countered the thing you were using to counter his Hydras.

Also, when you almost killed him, but he fought back with Hydras, you had an immediate advantage. You had map control. He couldn't afford to move onto the map, but you could. Did you expand (the proper thing to do when you make a successful attack)?

Assuming you had a natural, taking a third would have easily allowed you to out produce him. He may be going for units that Stalkers aren't very good against, but when you outnumber them 3:1, it really doesn't matter.

So, the solution to your problems are:

1: When you make a successful attack that puts the enemy on the defensive, use your advantage.

2: When your enemy sees your tech pattern, anticipate the counter and be one step ahead.

[edit after seeing your replay]

Did you watch that replay? You lost because he had a hidden expansion. You probably should have guessed that when you saw him pumping out that many Hydralisks; you can't do that off of only one base. You can if you never got Roaches, but he did. There's no way he could have built that army without an extra base.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

What you are doing wrong is countering what is, rather than countering what will be.

Take your Colossus example. You sacrificed valuable intel to take out his burrowed army. Namely, that you had Colossi. This is crucial intelligence that the enemy should only have when it is way too late for them to do anything about it.

The Zerg are the fastest race in the game at tech-switching. Swappable-addons, Reactors, Chrono Boost, none of that changes the simple fact that all Zerg need to shut down what you are trying to do is exactly one building. One building, and the resources to use it, and you're done.

That means that "way too late" for Zerg isn't that long. Granted, if he didn't have a Spire already out by the time you attacked, he would have likely lost (Zerg can't tech-switch that fast).

---

This is a good point - and I need to make an effort to explore the map and control the Xel'Naga towers since zerg is so likely to throw a zergling at each one.

Quote:

---

You have cloaked scouts. Use them. A lot of Zerg in SC2 don't remember that Overlords aren't detectors anymore. Just keep your Observers on the edge of his base and look for tech buildings.

---

Yeah, I definitely need to stop getting my intel in chunks, and like you say, monitor his base at all times.

Quote:

---

If you see a Spire going down, call for a StarGate or two and pump a few Phoenixes. Also, add more Stalkers to your ground forces instead of Immortals. Hold off on the Colossi until later.

---

This is the thing I have the most difficulty with. Nothing in the Protoss army is good against Mutalisk except Phoenix, and Phoenix isn't good against anything but Mutalisk. If he builds a Spire and I scout it and he doesn't buidl any mutalisks, how much money am I investing in countering Mutalisks that never come? 300/300 for two ports and enough for 6 phoenix? 8? 10? If he builds a spire and gets a bunch of Zerglings and Hydralisks, then I'm out that many minerals. Granted I can grav beam the Hydras (i always mis-micro that by putting my phoenix in before the rest of my army is nearby) and make some use of the phoenix, but it still seems like the Zerg can fake one direction and bring me into a 50/50 situation - counter the Mutas that never come, or overrun me with Mutas if I don't build an answer.

Quote:

---

Your opponent knew what you were going to do because you kept making the right moves. You saw Roaches, so you made Immortals. You saw Hydralisks, so you made Colossi.

What this means is that the Zerg player was in charge the whole game. All he had to do was stop making Hydras and switch to the thing that countered the thing you were using to counter his Hydras.

---

Yeah, but that's really my point - if I try to counter his army then I give him this control, but if I don't try to counter his army he could attack at any time and beat me. Is this just a symptom of trying to play too defensive and reactive?

Quote:

---

Also, when you almost killed him, but he fought back with Hydras, you had an immediate advantage. You had map control. He couldn't afford to move onto the map, but you could. Did you expand (the proper thing to do when you make a successful attack)?

---

This is true - I didn't. You're totally right here, I should have known the next attack was far away.

Quote:

---

So, the solution to your problems are:

1: When you make a successful attack that puts the enemy on the defensive, use your advantage.

---

Isn't that a total guess though? What if instead of investing his resources into re-securing his expansion, he puts it into an attack force to try to beat me? I didn't build an army so it kills me. I already know the answer to this, and it involves more active scouting. I have warpgate, so I can react to a small force like this.

Quote:

---

Did you watch that replay? You lost because he had a hidden expansion. You probably should have guessed that when you saw him pumping out that many Hydralisks; you can't do that off of only one base. You can if you never got Roaches, but he did. There's no way he could have built that army without an extra base.

---

Yeah, I know that was really the reason why I lost - but I guess it was a combination of not having a feel for the resources we lost in each battle, so I figured he was just beating me on all fronts - as well as not scouting nearly well enough. Still, I had my expansion early enough so that my economy was on par with his, so my main point is still valid - I didn't know how to beat his choice of units

Thanks a ton for the advice, I'm going to try to be more active in my scouting and map control

Quote:

---

This is the thing I have the most difficulty with. Nothing in the Protoss army is good against Mutalisk except Phoenix, and Phoenix isn't good against anything but Mutalisk. If he builds a Spire and I scout it and he doesn't buidl any mutalisks, how much money am I investing in countering Mutalisks that never come? 300/300 for two ports and enough for 6 phoenix? 8? 10? If he builds a spire and gets a bunch of Zerglings and Hydralisks, then I'm out that many minerals. Granted I can grav beam the Hydras (i always mis-micro that by putting my phoenix in before the rest of my army is nearby) and make some use of the phoenix, but it still seems like the Zerg can fake one direction and bring me into a 50/50 situation - counter the Mutas that never come, or overrun me with Mutas if I don't build an answer.

---

Point is, even if he doesn't go Mutalisks or he does but you countered him, you can use Phoenixes with Gravity beam to snipe his Queens. His economy will be damaged that way, he will have to spend Minerals on getting Queens and won't have enough larvae to continue massing units and Workers together. Also, Stargates aren't just there for Phoenixes. Void Rays are extremely deadly. Yes, they can be countered easily but still, 4 of those will destroy his Hatchery/Lair/Hive in about 10 sec, he won't have time to react, and even if he react on time, great damage is already done. As Nicol said, your biggest problem is that you look for counters for units that are already attacking you, and while you build counters for those units, he is also building counters for yours. He is always one step ahead, so don't let him be.

the problem is creativity my friend.

in sc2 u cannot just act and react and counter counter counter

if you try to match everything he makes with a counter, it makes you easily predictable, that an unpredictable move would overtake you

so he has lings, u went zealots, he has hydras, u went collossi, he goes mutas u go phoenixs, and this would actually kill u too in my opinion.

you have to prepare for the inevitability as a toss player. infact a stalker, zealot and collossi army is very formidable to everything there, with a couple of sentrys added it can even counter mutas by giving your stalkers enough time to hit them. and as was said earlier, they may not be as good against them, but with some creativity and mass they pwn em

and as said above as well, dont just make a stargate based on what hes going, make a stargate as part of a bigger plan. if you make a stargate just to get a counter, ur done. u get a stargate yes with the intention of getting that counter, but can also move to an entirely more creative direction like getting void rays and backdooring his base, or going straight for teching to go mass carriers and mothership while hes taking his time teching

again creativity is the key

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tam

the problem is creativity my friend.

in sc2 u cannot just act and react and counter counter counter

if you try to match everything he makes with a counter, it makes you easily predictable, that an unpredictable move would overtake you

so he has lings, u went zealots, he has hydras, u went collossi, he goes mutas u go phoenixs, and this would actually kill u too in my opinion.

you have to prepare for the inevitability as a toss player. infact a stalker, zealot and collossi army is very formidable to everything there, with a couple of sentrys added it can even counter mutas by giving your stalkers enough time to hit them. and as was said earlier, they may not be as good against them, but with some creativity and mass they pwn em

and as said above as well, dont just make a stargate based on what hes going, make a stargate as part of a bigger plan. if you make a stargate just to get a counter, ur done. u get a stargate yes with the intention of getting that counter, but can also move to an entirely more creative direction like getting void rays and backdooring his base, or going straight for teching to go mass carriers and mothership while hes taking his time teching

again creativity is the key

---

True but you do need to be able to counter if you are caught off guard. You should never not try to counter him. You need to find a good balance between countering and using your pre-decided strategy. Also, its best to keep the pressure on your oponent instead of letting him pressure you. It forces him to think defensively which should allow you to more easily switch tech while he is preparing for your next attack.

I suppose all you need to take note of is the game pacing and the who at when a certain race is either defensive, offensive, reactive.

Like for example in Broodwar, zerg has the early aggression. And so, the lings must be defended against by protoss and terran. When corsair time arrives, you become the one who must counter corsairs, etc.

In terran at 4 or so minutes, vultures can come, etc.

Stretch this idea over to the entire game, and you'll get a sort of feel of how things work.

Quote:

---

I suppose all you need to take note of is the game pacing and the who at when a certain race is either defensive, offensive, reactive.

---

These things only happen once the gameplay has devolved/settled down to standardized builds and tech patterns. Until then, the game is basically a bunch of people flinging units at each other until one side surrenders.

Don't forget that you can use your phoenixs to kill overlords so they won't be completely useless if he doesn't go mutas. It will also force him to make/keep hydras to protect them.

Two more points which havent been made yet I think:

1. It is better to force the opponent to react to you than reacting to what the opponent does. Even though a burrowed army is tempting to destroy it, it is a known force and you can evade it when he reacts to your own attacks.

2. Killing armies doesnt matter as long as your base survives. Killing the enemies base does matter and for a Zerg the tech buildings (usually only one of each type built) and the main hive (upgraded to Tier 3) are the most important targets. If you see a zerg army somewhere out of reach to defend these critical buildings even a suicide run by a few troops might be worth it. Dark Templars and warping stuff directly into the base are nice tactics emphasizing the Protoss mobility over the brute mass of the Zerg.

Quote:

---

Nothing in the Protoss army is good against Mutalisk except Phoenix

---

Have not really seen it used yet. How is the Archon vs air in SC2? Mutas in particular

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caliban113

Have not really seen it used yet. How is the Archon vs air in SC2? Mutas in particular

---

Phoenixes, Archons and Sentries are all good in SC2 against Mutas, don't know how people can't see that. They think Archon is not good cause Mutas doesn't stack anymore, so you can't kill 12 Mutas in 4 shots...

arhcons n sentries may be good still but not so good cost for cost. they are gas heavy + sentries may deal good damage but theyll die even faster than mutas, & costing as much.

i/d want to see how sth like 6 muta vs 3 stalker + 3 sentry works out tho. should be favourable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Todie

arhcons n sentries may be good still but not so good cost for cost. they are gas heavy + sentries may deal good damage but theyll die even faster than mutas, & costing as much.

i/d want to see how sth like 6 muta vs 3 stalker + 3 sentry works out tho. should be favourable.

---

On TL net there is a thread saying that 12 Sentries > 12 Mutas, but it seems only like Theory to me. We are comparing unit cost here, if they can beat Mutas and are cheaper, then yeah, they are cost effective.

Sentrys rape mutas so bad lol

Its pretty uncool if I do say so myself =(

Quote:

---

Sentrys rape mutas so bad lol

---

But they're less useful vs. Zerglings. So Mutaling wins again.

Sentry's work wonders vs lings in certain situations, while stalkers can easily get raped by lings - sentry's can make a wall for your other units to hid behind and shoot the lings - muta ling is very hard to actually get running anyway. Early aggression forces him into roaches and sometimes hydra and void ray rushes forces him to forgo spire for hydras most of the time - sentry with support from stalkers is awesome vs muta. Not only that but sentry's arent ever bad you can mix them with any unit and there worth it.

The showmatch between Artosis and Louder showed very clearly that you cant just rush to muta and survive with lings alone. As sad as the games were haha

I'd like to approach it from a different angle than what others are saying, and it seems to be economic expanse/understanding helps a lot.

For example, were you aware that a base with 8 mineral patches requires 24 probes to be fully functional? It's important to remember that "mineral saturation" is about 2 probes for 1 mineral patch, and 3 per gas. When you approach this, you can enter the game with a bit more confidence on what strat you plan on doing? Do you plan to do a fast expansion? Then you can continue with more probes than that in prep for that, but it's definately a risk.

What I suspect is that you're working the 1 base angle, so you should consider having about 25 probes for econ/building and the additional ones for holding towers and scouting. This knowledge alone helps people manage their resources better IMHO.

While this may be a bit more advanced, it's important to know that 2 workers on 1 mineral patch is considered saturation. Also at saturation you gain about ~16 minerals per second. 2 geysers at full saturation (3 workers each) gain about 5 gas per second.

Hidden Content:

For your information, I've done tests regarding this and have found this to be about the universal law so far. This was done in 30 second tests, 42 second tests, 60 second tests and from there 3 separate competency tests regarding the data in use. It seems accurate

While this stuff may seem trivial knowledge it's important to know how your income works so you can match your base and strategies to work it efficiently and swiftly. And it shows most when you consider the build times of the units you plan to evolve to.

Examples:

• 40-42 seconds you gain about 640 minerals and about 200 gas. This is the time of stalkers and immortals. Proving that if you don't chronos, you will have exactly the right amount of gas/minerals for 4 stalker+1 Pylon production or 1 immortal+2stalker+1pylon production.
• 33 seconds, you gain about 528 minerals which allows for 1 pylon+4 zealot assaults as well. You can also use it as a 3 zealot+1pylon+tech setup if you consider the extra 128 minerals per "Zealot production cycle" going towards building upgrades or probes.

Just something to consider overall in terms of production, sometimes it's the little stats that help you figure out your game plan. This should help you identify if you want to have multiple expansions or not, and help you start with a stronger early game strategy.