Some PvZ Stress Tests from Gradius and Grunt

Big thanks to Gradius for taking time out of regular Beta-ing to help me run some experiments :p.

Here's some information I hope you guys will find useful.

1 Zealot vs 1 Hydra, both with no upgrades:
http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1267140174
Zealot should win with roughly 34 HP remaining.


12 Zealots vs 12 Hydras, both with no upgrades:
http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1267140193
Hydras should win. In our test, 3 Hydras were still alive. No micro was used, though - we both just attack-moved into each other. Zealots just don't move fast enough to deal with all that ranged firepower.


12 Zealots with Charge upgrade vs 12 Hydras (no upgrades)
http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1267140258
Zealots should win very easily. In our test, 8 Zealots were still alive. Also, I included my reaction at how awesome Charge is :p.


12 Zealots with Charge upgrade vs 12 Hydras with Grooved Spines upgrade
http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1267140273
Zealots should win very easily. In our test, 6 Zealots were still alive. They just close too fast with Charge :p.


12 Zealots with Charge upgrade vs 12 Hydras with Grooved Spines upgrade + Patrol-move micro with Hydras
Zealots absolutely massacre the Hydras :p. For two reasons. First, my micro with patrol-move isn't so good (in my defense, I get quite a bit of delay :[ ). Second, Hydras have such a fast rate of attack that you're not getting the most out of by Patrol-moving while Zealots can still charge you every 10 seconds. Maybe someone with better micro can achieve such a feat, though I suspect it might still be better to just stand your ground against Chargelots.



12 Zealots with Charge upgrade vs 12 Hydras with Grooved Spines upgrade + lvl 1 Ground Missile attack upgrade TAKE 1
http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1267140293
Hydras win, but only just (3 Hydras survived). But the pathing with the Zealots' Charge got messed up and several Zealots didn't get into melee as quickly as they should have. I think that my Hydras were also near a choke, preventing some Zealots from getting an easy surround, so we did another test.



12 Zealots with Charge upgrade vs 12 Hydras with Grooved Spines upgrade + lvl 1 Ground Missile attack upgrade TAKE 2
http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1267071756
Hydras barely win. Only 3 Hydras survived, and all were in red. Both armies just attack-moved into each other. With different pathing, maybe the Zealots would have come out on top.

Nonetheless, I feel that this proves that even +1 damage to Hydras is a worthwhile investment. The 12 Chargelots vs 12 Hydras fight changed from 6-8 Zealots surviving the fight to the Hydras winning (if only just) after the +1 damage upgrade. Although a Protoss player may get +1 ground attack (in which case I'm sure the Zealots would definitely have won), I think this still shows that the damage boost to Hydras is not insignificant.



4 Colossi vs 24 Hydras with Grooved Spines upgrade + lvl 1 Ground Missile attack upgrade
Hydras barely win - only 3 survive. Although the Hydras won, keep in mind that 4 Colossi only costs 1200 minerals 800 gas 24 Supply vs the Hydralisk army which costs 2400 minerals, 1200 gas and 48 Supply. In short, Colossi very, very cost-effectively kill Hydralisks. And this is BEFORE the +1 Protoss ground attack upgrade!


1 Zealot with Charge upgrade vs 1 Roach with +1 ground missile attack upgrade.
http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1267071763
Zealot wins with some health remaining.


12 Zealots with Charge upgrade vs 12 Roaches with +1 ground missile attack upgrade.
http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1267071777
Zealots win quite solidly - 5 Zealots survived this particular test. Important Note: no burrow micro was used with the Roaches. If micro was used, the Roaches would surely have come out on top. However, I think this shows that Roaches aren't a hard hard counter to Zealots (at least not when Zealots have Charge). They need micro to come out on top in a midgame battle, and I think this'd be especially difficult in a larger engagement. Also note that the Zealots didn't even have their attack damage upgrade in this fight.



1 unupgraded Void Ray vs 1 Queen with +1 ground missile attack upgrade
Void Ray wins :p. Kinda scary since it means you can rush with even a single Void Ray - I normally see two come out, so I assumed that you can't take down a Queen with a lone Void Ray.


We did other tests, but I think these are the really important ones because they provide some insight into how early-midgame relations between these units work.

A lot of my tests center around the Hydralisk because I'm fascinated by their new role in SC2 and their placement in the tech tree. I want to become familiar with just how much they can take. :p

Hope you guys find this information useful. D:



Other PvZ tests I'd like to run eventually :p:
12 unupgraded Zealots vs 12 unupgraded Roaches

12 +1 ground attack Zealots vs 12 +1 armour Hydralisks

12 +1 ground attack Zealots vs 12 +unupgraded Roaches

12 +1 ground attack Zealots vs 12 +1 armour Roaches

Variations of Pure Zeal vs Roach & Hydra and Zeal & Stalkers/Immortals/Sentries vs Roach and Hydra

1 Archon vs 10 or 12 Zerglings (I heard that the Archon's AoE is a lot lousier, but I think it can one-shot Zerglings now)

Good to know. Can you do TvZ and TvP?



...not that I play Terran or anything. >.>

Focus fire is one of the most important pieces of micro in the game for ranged units. It has saved me countless times in SC2, turning otherwise defeat into victory.

Have you done any tests as to what happens if you do basic focus fire with the Roach vs. Zealot? I imagine the fact that Roaches can thin out the herd faster would be a telling difference.

I think hydras on creep can win easier but maybe not

me too. also, there are times when hydras range is upgraded but zealots charge isnt, and the hydras are devastating so long as they dont take too many hits themselves.

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Originally Posted by milo

Good to know. Can you do TvZ and TvP?

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Next time I'm online and there's someone willing to help, I'd love to run more tests :p.

I'm still very curious to know if Zerg should get +1 ground carapace first vs Protoss like what they usually do in BW :p.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Have you done any tests as to what happens if you do basic focus fire with the Roach vs. Zealot?

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Nope, but you're right - the Roaches (or Hydras) might have come out on top with focus fire.

I just like attack-move for these tests because they don't take individual skill into account. While it may not necessarily reflect how an actual encounter between two groups of units may be (at least among players with some skill), I think that it gives a better (or rawer) idea of how the units interact compared to seeing one side microing over another.

The exception is with that Hydra Patrol-move test, but that was because I wasn't sure how beneficial that was, unlike focus fire which is definitely good.

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Originally Posted by Islandsnake

I think hydras on creep can win easier but maybe not

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The only bonus that Creep provides is a movement speed bonus, and that doesn't really matter in these particular tests :p.

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Originally Posted by Todie

me too. also, there are times when hydras range is upgraded but zealots charge isnt, and the hydras are devastating so long as they dont take too many hits themselves.

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Yeah, Hydras do terrible, terrible damage but are terribly, terribly frail. As you saw from one of the tests, Hydras can handle Zealots (without Charge) pretty well even without Grooved Spines.


By the way, here's a crude indicator of what +1 range looks like. It's just one unit as it is in SC1, like those little squares you see when you're placing a building :p. Hydras attack so fast that that little +1 range can mean an extra attack as the enemy is closing in, or as they are retreating.

http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1267096776

Well, this is kinda pointless since even average players will hit and run, for example with Roaches, as you see in many videos that Roaches > Zealots cause of hit and run. But good work, nonetheless! :)

Btw, I really like Zealots with Charge, even that I am an Zerg player, they are so amazing! Together with Stalkers and Immortals, favorite Protoss units! I am really surprised how well they are doing and how much better they are than in SC1! :)

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By the way, here's a crude indicator of what +1 range looks like. It's just one unit as it is in SC1, like those little squares you see when you're placing a building . Hydras attack so fast that that little +1 range can mean an extra attack as the enemy is closing in, or as they are retreating.

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Not just that, but also if you are fighting in a choke with mass Hydras, more Hydras will attack cause of the upgrade, while without it, they would just bugging and half of them will attack. If it wasn't that useful they wouldn't even have that upgrade.

RamiZ, good luck kiting Charge upgraded Zeals. Not gonna happen. Charge is really awesome <3

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Originally Posted by LXM

RamiZ, good luck kiting Charge upgraded Zeals. Not gonna happen. Charge is really awesome <3

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That's true. We did try kiting in one of our tests (can't remember whether it was hydras or roaches), but they actually did worse than when they just stood there.

Yeah, I think stalkers with blink are the only things that can kite Zealots with charge.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

That's true. We did try kiting in one of our tests (can't remember whether it was hydras or roaches), but they actually did worse than when they just stood there.

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That's true, but I think that my micro could also be a factor in how poorly the Hydras performed in that particular test :[. I do get a bit of delay which makes patrol-move difficult for me to do :p. A lot of the time, my Hydras were just moving and not shooting :p.

That said, Hydras have such a fast rate of attack that you don't seem to get a lot out of them when patrol-moving even in the hands of a skilled player. It just seems that against Chargelots, you're better off holding your ground and doing as much damage as you can.

I did a few more PvZ tests this morning. Unfortunately, the server shutdown so I have no screenshots :p. I'll add them later if the replay file saved correctly (though looking at my folder, it doesn't seem to have done so :( )


These tests were done with a friend of Islandsnake's :).

12 Unupgraded Zeals vs 12 Unupgraded Roaches
Roaches win, obviously :p. Just wanted to test for the purposes of the next test...


12 Zeals with +1 attack upgrade vs 12 Unupgraded Roaches
Roaches STILL barely won, if memory serves. And this was without micro, only attack-moving. Looks like Zeals really need Charge to take on Roaches.


12 Zeals with Charge and +1 ground attack upgrade vs 12 Hydralisks with +1 Carapace
Zeals will win, to my surprise. 4 or 5 survived this particular test. I guess this means that early game against Protoss, when getting Roaches and transitioning into Hydras, you ought to go for that +1 Ground Missile attack upgrade before Carapace. The upgrade affects both Roaches and Hydras, so it suits such a transition very well. And as the earlier test indicated, +1 attack for Hydras really seems to make more of a difference than the Carapace.

This is because Zealots are a Hydra's main threat until Colossi or Psi Storm comes into play. And once Colossi are built, it doesn't matter because they're going to two-shot Hydras regardless of Carapace upgrades :p.

EDIT: Sorry I forgot that in my first batch of tests, the Zealots didn't have the +1 Ground Attack upgrade. I'm going to need to try 12 Chargelots vs 12 Hydras with +1 Carapace. However, I suspect that +1 ground missile upgrade for Zerg is still going to be the way to go.


1 Archon with +1 Ground Attack upgrade vs 3 unupgraded Mutalisks
Archon wins.


2 Archons with +1 Ground Attack upgrade vs 8 unupgraded Mutalisks
Mutalisks win with 4 stiill alive. I even attacked with my Mutas all clumped up, but the Archon's AoE seems (just from my impressions in this test) to be really pitiful. :[ Although Archons can maybe beat Mutalisks for cost (this test did have the Zerg army costing more), I don't think they're necessarily a cost-effective counter.


1 Sentry with +1 Ground Attack upgrade vs 1 unupgraded Mutalisk
Even without Guardian Shield, the Sentry will win, but only just.


8 Sentries with +1 Ground Attack upgrade vs 12 unupgraded Mutalisks
This may sound a little crazy, but I saw a thread on Teamliquid where someone said something about 8 Sentries with Guardian Shield being able to take down 12 Mutalisks, and so we did this test. 8 Sentries do NOT take down 12 Mutalisks even if Guardian shield is up and even if you focus-fire. 8 Sentries do not even seem to be able to down 10 Mutalisks, so I don't think they're a very cost-effective counter.

Perhaps if it was a mass of Sentries AND Stalkers, but the Server shutdown before we could try such a combination :p.

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RamiZ, good luck kiting Charge upgraded Zeals. Not gonna happen. Charge is really awesome <3

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I know, I love it. Just if you included Charge, why didn't you include ability alike? Roaches with Burrow would win vs Zealots. That is the point. And Charge actually has cooldown so you still can kite them pretty well if you are good enough. Creep also helps a lot!

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Zeals will win, to my surprise. 4 or 5 survived this particular test. I guess this means that early game against Protoss, when getting Roaches and transitioning into Hydras, you ought to go for that +1 Ground Missile attack upgrade before Carapace. The upgrade affects both Roaches and Hydras, so it suits such a transition very well. And as the earlier test indicated, +1 attack for Hydras really seems to make more of a difference than the Carapace.

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Why does this surprise you? With new damage system if Zealots are doing 10 damage(just an example) +1 and Hydras got +1 armor, that means Zealots will do 10+1-1=10, which is the same like unupgraded Zealots with Charge vs unupgraded Hydras, where Zealots > Hydras. Well it just seems logical to me.

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This may sound a little crazy, but I saw a thread on Teamliquid where someone said something about 8 Sentries with Guardian Shield being able to take down 12 Mutalisks, and so we did this test. 8 Sentries do NOT take down 12 Mutalisks even if Guardian shield is up and even if you focus-fire. 8 Sentries do not even seem to be able to down 10 Mutalisks, so I don't think they're a very cost-effective counter.

Perhaps if it was a mass of Sentries AND Stalkers, but the Server shutdown before we could try such a combination .

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Well yeah, Sentries counter Mutalisks cause of Guardian Shield, not cause of their damage. They are not really direct counter, but help your units to take less damage and counter Mutas.

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Originally Posted by RamiZ

I know, I love it. Just if you included Charge, why didn't you include ability alike? Roaches with Burrow would win vs Zealots. That is the point. And Charge actually has cooldown so you still can kite them pretty well if you are good enough. Creep also helps a lot!

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I think that without stuff involving micro, it gives a much better idea of how the units interact with each other. :]

Here's a point to illustrate: imagine I'm doing a Brood War stress test, and I do 3 Marines vs 1 Lurker. We've all seen how with tremendous micro skill, 3 Marines (you could probably even do it with 1 or 2 Marines) can beat the Lurker as long as you have some detection.

Now I know that burrow micro with Roaches is done even at lower skill levels and is a LOT easier to do than Marine micro vs Lurkers, but I hope you see where I'm coming from :p.

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Originally Posted by RamiZ

Why does this surprise you? With new damage system if Zealots are doing 10 damage(just an example) +1 and Hydras got +1 armor, that means Zealots will do 10+1-1=10, which is the same like unupgraded Zealots with Charge vs unupgraded Hydras, where Zealots > Hydras. Well it just seems logical to me.

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Like I edited into my post, I forgot the Zeals had +1 attack as opposed to my earlier test where they had only Charge, and not both :p.

Thanks from all us non-betas.

Any more unit combinations will be appreciated. :)

One thing to consider here, should Chronoboost keep its function through beta, is that in a normal game, Protoss can always be ahead in upgrades.

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Originally Posted by milo

One thing to consider here, should Chronoboost keep its function through beta, is that in a normal game, Protoss can always be ahead in upgrades.

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Not just upgrades, but because Protoss don't need to upgrade or build anything for Chrono Booster, only need to wait 25 sec for it, he will be ahead not just in upgrades, but in worker and unit production too...

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Not just upgrades, but because Protoss don't need to upgrade or build anything for Chrono Booster, only need to wait 25 sec for it, he will be ahead not just in upgrades, but in worker and unit production too...

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A Queen can easily out-strip Chrono Boost in everything except upgrades.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

A Queen can easily out-strip Chrono Boost in everything except upgrades.

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Yes, but not at start. That is my point, you get it almost at start, while you wait for Spawning pool, then for Queen to be built.

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Why does this surprise you? With new damage system if Zealots are doing 10 damage(just an example) +1 and Hydras got +1 armor, that means Zealots will do 10+1-1=10, which is the same like unupgraded Zealots with Charge vs unupgraded Hydras, where Zealots > Hydras. Well it just seems logical to me.

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Zealots have two attacks.

So it's (8+1) x 2 - 1. So the zealot will still deal one extra point of damage.

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I think that without stuff involving micro, it gives a much better idea of how the units interact with each other.

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Micro changes who wins and who loses. The most your info will tell you is what happens among unskilled players or those unwilling to micro.

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Zealots have two attacks.

So it's (8+1) x 2 - 1. So the zealot will still deal one extra point of damage.

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Each attack is counted separately, so armor affects each attack separately. So it is a wash.

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Yes, but not at start. That is my point, you get it almost at start, while you wait for Spawning pool, then for Queen to be built.

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Oh no. The Protoss have an advantage for, like 4 minutes. The four minutes during which almost nothing happens.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Micro changes who wins and who loses. The most your info will tell you is what happens among unskilled players or those unwilling to micro.

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In a real midgame battle, the Zealots and Roaches won't be alone - there'll be all kinds of nasties on the field and more often than not, these units just become frontline fodder while you micro other things like sniping high-priority targets or casting Psi-Storm.

Sure you could micro your Zealots and Roaches if you wanted to, but stuff dies so fast that you're simply not rewarded for doing so as much as if you were to micro other elements in your army.

Also, you sometimes have to jump back to your base to macro even during a fight. I'd say that "you'd be surprised how often two armies a-moving into each other comes up" but then, you probably already know.

Believe me - it's useful to know how a given group of units will react when left to their own devices at any point in time. Secretly, I think you see the value in this but you're too into roleplaying Nicol Bolas :p. There's also the fact that at our skill level, most of us probably aren't capable of micro that'll make more of a difference than the quantity and composition of our forces. At least in a larger fight and not just a small skirmish early-midgame where all you have to deal with is 4 Zealots, 2 Stalkers and a Sentry or something similar.

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Sure you could micro your Zealots and Roaches if you wanted to, but stuff dies so fast that you're simply not rewarded for doing so as much as if you were to micro other elements in your army.

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Roaches are ranged, even with their short range. They still benefit from basic focus-fire micro. Giving them a good set of targets to attack (using shift-click to make them attack in sequence) does wonders for their ability to take down targets. And since they do lots of damage, but have a low rate of fire, focus fire is even more important with them.

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I'd say that "you'd be surprised how often two armies a-moving into each other comes up" but then, you probably already know.

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Not if you actually micro the units. And Roaches don't die particularly fast (which is kinda their point.)

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Roaches are ranged, even with their short range. They still benefit from basic focus-fire micro. Giving them a good set of targets to attack (using shift-click to make them attack in sequence) does wonders for their ability to take down targets. And since they do lots of damage, but have a low rate of fire, focus fire is even more important with them.



Not if you actually micro the units. And Roaches don't die particularly fast (which is kinda their point.)

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Now you're just arguing for the sake of it :p. I'm sure you've seen replays from the top SC2 beta players at the moment, even they rely on a-move and only focus fire to snipe priority targets. When an army of Roaches, Zerglings and Hydralisks clash with Zealots, Immortals, Stalkers, and Sentries, you'd be very hard pressed to find a game where the Zealots and Roaches DON'T only a-move into each other and the focus-firing is left to the other units.

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I'm sure you've seen replays from the top SC2 beta players at the moment, even they rely on a-move and only focus fire to snipe priority targets.

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That's because they're macrobots. They think in terms of attacking opponents with their bases, rather than with their units.

Basic focus fire takes out enemies faster. You lose fewer units when you do it. It's a net gain.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

That's because they're macrobots. They think in terms of attacking opponents with their bases, rather than with their units.

Basic focus fire takes out enemies faster. You lose fewer units when you do it. It's a net gain.

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The strange thing is, a lot of these players are War3 players, so you'd think it'd be hard for them to break out of the mentality of microing their army.

It's easy to dismiss them and their skill as being attributed purely to their amazing mechanical skill, but I honestly believe that they (top War3 and foreign BW players alike) are giving this game a red hot go and that the conclusion is that macro wins in many situations.

There's absolutely no denying that micro and focus-firing helps in battle. In fact, this happens even in the lategame. You will always benefit from doing those things. The question is: benefit by how much? The larger the battle, the less micro can potentially matter and it could indeed be better to focus elsewhere.

You can macro in this game pretty easily while you micro I feel - And focus firing dose help, but I find most of the time "dancing" your units is better or splitting them up then trying to shift click everything


So far I love zealot on zealot fights, I usally end up with like no deaths on my side haha

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The larger the battle, the less micro can potentially matter and it could indeed be better to focus elsewhere.

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Actually, that's quite the opposite. In large battles, minor advantages can cascade quickly into major ones. Let's say you have a large number of Roaches vs. a large number of Zealots. And let's say that without focus-fire micro, this battle would be a draw. That is, with no micro, they'd kill each other off at relatively even rates.

It takes 10 Roach shots to kill a Zealot. While it takes 13 Zealot hits to kill a Roach. Zealots attack a bit faster than Roaches. So lets say that for every Roach attack, there are 1.5 Zealot attacks.

No more than 3 Zealots can attack any one Roach if they are clumped together. This is the nature of melee units. Yet approximately 7 Roaches are able to fire on any one Zealot; this is the innate advantage of range.

If only 3 Zealots are able to attack a Roach, then they can only kill that Roach in 3 Roach attacks (13/1.5/3). Whereas 7 focus-fired Roaches can kill a Zealot in 2 attacks.

That is why focus fire is important. If you have two forces that, with perfect micro, would end up in a draw, the battle is decided based on who gets a numerical advantage. The sooner you get an advantage, the more that advantage will tell.

The advantage of ranged units is more units dealing damage. Once you start to thin out the herd, micro isn't important anymore. If you can quickly pick off some of theirs while some of your wounded are still dealing damage, you'll gain a numerical advantage. That advantage only increases with time. So if you have two even unmicroed forces, applying some Roach micro will give you a victory. Plus, if you have uneven forces, if the Zealots are greater, some Roach micro can turn defeat into victory, or at least a more costly victory for your opponent.

Oh, what I mean is that in a big fight, you'd only be focus-firing with a portion of your army - a large portion of the two armies will still just be a-moving into each other. For example, in a midgame fight as a Protoss player, you'd probably only be casting Psi Storms or controlling your Colossi and making sure they're focusing on Hydralisks, but your Zealots and other frontline troops will just be left to do their own thing.

And besides, in a roach vs X battle, when the numbers start getting higher you need to focus fire with seperate groups because of range issues. That makes it even more of a hassle.
I don't know if you're playing the game, but you make it sound so simple to set up a focus fire queue while microing position and macroing.
I'll focus fire frequently, but definitely not in all battles, since sometimes you'll end up making your units waste time walking around.
In the end I'd say that positionning (setting up the right concave, having a good spread etc...) is much more important than focus fire.

Of course, if it's that simple, once you've got perfect positionning, all of your bases are producing, your worker count is perfect and your tech transition is going smoothly, well then you can use that extra APM (the extra clicks beyond 300APM that everyone's got and has been looking for something to do...) to set up a focus fire queue.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Oh no. The Protoss have an advantage for, like 4 minutes. The four minutes during which almost nothing happens.

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The same 4 minutes where you ONLY have macro? Where Chrono Boost is a macro mechanic?