Some PvZ Stress Tests from Gradius and Grunt

Big thanks to Gradius for taking time out of regular Beta-ing to help me run some experiments :p.

Here's some information I hope you guys will find useful.

1 Zealot vs 1 Hydra, both with no upgrades:
http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1267140174
Zealot should win with roughly 34 HP remaining.


12 Zealots vs 12 Hydras, both with no upgrades:
http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1267140193
Hydras should win. In our test, 3 Hydras were still alive. No micro was used, though - we both just attack-moved into each other. Zealots just don't move fast enough to deal with all that ranged firepower.


12 Zealots with Charge upgrade vs 12 Hydras (no upgrades)
http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1267140258
Zealots should win very easily. In our test, 8 Zealots were still alive. Also, I included my reaction at how awesome Charge is :p.


12 Zealots with Charge upgrade vs 12 Hydras with Grooved Spines upgrade
http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1267140273
Zealots should win very easily. In our test, 6 Zealots were still alive. They just close too fast with Charge :p.


12 Zealots with Charge upgrade vs 12 Hydras with Grooved Spines upgrade + Patrol-move micro with Hydras
Zealots absolutely massacre the Hydras :p. For two reasons. First, my micro with patrol-move isn't so good (in my defense, I get quite a bit of delay :[ ). Second, Hydras have such a fast rate of attack that you're not getting the most out of by Patrol-moving while Zealots can still charge you every 10 seconds. Maybe someone with better micro can achieve such a feat, though I suspect it might still be better to just stand your ground against Chargelots.



12 Zealots with Charge upgrade vs 12 Hydras with Grooved Spines upgrade + lvl 1 Ground Missile attack upgrade TAKE 1
http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1267140293
Hydras win, but only just (3 Hydras survived). But the pathing with the Zealots' Charge got messed up and several Zealots didn't get into melee as quickly as they should have. I think that my Hydras were also near a choke, preventing some Zealots from getting an easy surround, so we did another test.



12 Zealots with Charge upgrade vs 12 Hydras with Grooved Spines upgrade + lvl 1 Ground Missile attack upgrade TAKE 2
http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1267071756
Hydras barely win. Only 3 Hydras survived, and all were in red. Both armies just attack-moved into each other. With different pathing, maybe the Zealots would have come out on top.

Nonetheless, I feel that this proves that even +1 damage to Hydras is a worthwhile investment. The 12 Chargelots vs 12 Hydras fight changed from 6-8 Zealots surviving the fight to the Hydras winning (if only just) after the +1 damage upgrade. Although a Protoss player may get +1 ground attack (in which case I'm sure the Zealots would definitely have won), I think this still shows that the damage boost to Hydras is not insignificant.



4 Colossi vs 24 Hydras with Grooved Spines upgrade + lvl 1 Ground Missile attack upgrade
Hydras barely win - only 3 survive. Although the Hydras won, keep in mind that 4 Colossi only costs 1200 minerals 800 gas 24 Supply vs the Hydralisk army which costs 2400 minerals, 1200 gas and 48 Supply. In short, Colossi very, very cost-effectively kill Hydralisks. And this is BEFORE the +1 Protoss ground attack upgrade!


1 Zealot with Charge upgrade vs 1 Roach with +1 ground missile attack upgrade.
http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1267071763
Zealot wins with some health remaining.


12 Zealots with Charge upgrade vs 12 Roaches with +1 ground missile attack upgrade.
http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1267071777
Zealots win quite solidly - 5 Zealots survived this particular test. Important Note: no burrow micro was used with the Roaches. If micro was used, the Roaches would surely have come out on top. However, I think this shows that Roaches aren't a hard hard counter to Zealots (at least not when Zealots have Charge). They need micro to come out on top in a midgame battle, and I think this'd be especially difficult in a larger engagement. Also note that the Zealots didn't even have their attack damage upgrade in this fight.



1 unupgraded Void Ray vs 1 Queen with +1 ground missile attack upgrade
Void Ray wins :p. Kinda scary since it means you can rush with even a single Void Ray - I normally see two come out, so I assumed that you can't take down a Queen with a lone Void Ray.


We did other tests, but I think these are the really important ones because they provide some insight into how early-midgame relations between these units work.

A lot of my tests center around the Hydralisk because I'm fascinated by their new role in SC2 and their placement in the tech tree. I want to become familiar with just how much they can take. :p

Hope you guys find this information useful. D:



Other PvZ tests I'd like to run eventually :p:
12 unupgraded Zealots vs 12 unupgraded Roaches

12 +1 ground attack Zealots vs 12 +1 armour Hydralisks

12 +1 ground attack Zealots vs 12 +unupgraded Roaches

12 +1 ground attack Zealots vs 12 +1 armour Roaches

Variations of Pure Zeal vs Roach & Hydra and Zeal & Stalkers/Immortals/Sentries vs Roach and Hydra

1 Archon vs 10 or 12 Zerglings (I heard that the Archon's AoE is a lot lousier, but I think it can one-shot Zerglings now)

Good to know. Can you do TvZ and TvP?



...not that I play Terran or anything. >.>

Focus fire is one of the most important pieces of micro in the game for ranged units. It has saved me countless times in SC2, turning otherwise defeat into victory.

Have you done any tests as to what happens if you do basic focus fire with the Roach vs. Zealot? I imagine the fact that Roaches can thin out the herd faster would be a telling difference.

I think hydras on creep can win easier but maybe not

me too. also, there are times when hydras range is upgraded but zealots charge isnt, and the hydras are devastating so long as they dont take too many hits themselves.

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Originally Posted by milo

Good to know. Can you do TvZ and TvP?

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Next time I'm online and there's someone willing to help, I'd love to run more tests :p.

I'm still very curious to know if Zerg should get +1 ground carapace first vs Protoss like what they usually do in BW :p.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Have you done any tests as to what happens if you do basic focus fire with the Roach vs. Zealot?

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Nope, but you're right - the Roaches (or Hydras) might have come out on top with focus fire.

I just like attack-move for these tests because they don't take individual skill into account. While it may not necessarily reflect how an actual encounter between two groups of units may be (at least among players with some skill), I think that it gives a better (or rawer) idea of how the units interact compared to seeing one side microing over another.

The exception is with that Hydra Patrol-move test, but that was because I wasn't sure how beneficial that was, unlike focus fire which is definitely good.

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Originally Posted by Islandsnake

I think hydras on creep can win easier but maybe not

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The only bonus that Creep provides is a movement speed bonus, and that doesn't really matter in these particular tests :p.

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Originally Posted by Todie

me too. also, there are times when hydras range is upgraded but zealots charge isnt, and the hydras are devastating so long as they dont take too many hits themselves.

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Yeah, Hydras do terrible, terrible damage but are terribly, terribly frail. As you saw from one of the tests, Hydras can handle Zealots (without Charge) pretty well even without Grooved Spines.


By the way, here's a crude indicator of what +1 range looks like. It's just one unit as it is in SC1, like those little squares you see when you're placing a building :p. Hydras attack so fast that that little +1 range can mean an extra attack as the enemy is closing in, or as they are retreating.

http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...1&d=1267096776

Well, this is kinda pointless since even average players will hit and run, for example with Roaches, as you see in many videos that Roaches > Zealots cause of hit and run. But good work, nonetheless! :)

Btw, I really like Zealots with Charge, even that I am an Zerg player, they are so amazing! Together with Stalkers and Immortals, favorite Protoss units! I am really surprised how well they are doing and how much better they are than in SC1! :)

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By the way, here's a crude indicator of what +1 range looks like. It's just one unit as it is in SC1, like those little squares you see when you're placing a building . Hydras attack so fast that that little +1 range can mean an extra attack as the enemy is closing in, or as they are retreating.

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Not just that, but also if you are fighting in a choke with mass Hydras, more Hydras will attack cause of the upgrade, while without it, they would just bugging and half of them will attack. If it wasn't that useful they wouldn't even have that upgrade.

RamiZ, good luck kiting Charge upgraded Zeals. Not gonna happen. Charge is really awesome <3

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Originally Posted by LXM

RamiZ, good luck kiting Charge upgraded Zeals. Not gonna happen. Charge is really awesome <3

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That's true. We did try kiting in one of our tests (can't remember whether it was hydras or roaches), but they actually did worse than when they just stood there.

Yeah, I think stalkers with blink are the only things that can kite Zealots with charge.