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SO... we've got macro mechanics to help us mine more minerals. We've got high yield minerals. In exchange we have two vespene geysers at each site. Should we also have a high yield gas? I notice from watching streams people often end up with low gas but more cash than they know what to do with...
Say blizzard considers this... I request red or purple geysers! Red or purple gases would definitely have that high yield look. =)
Nope,That's exacly why they have 2 geysers on each mineral patches not a single one,And besides i think now all gas 'stations' cost less minerals.
P.P besides the high yield minerals get depleted very quickly ...
Assimilator cost 75 mineral instead of 100, but you have to sacrifice 3 more probe to gas for the same income. The trade of is there. Sometime i work out a single gas when i do warp-gate/warp-prism rush, considering i need a lot of mineral and 150 gas total XD.
But you don't get the same gas income from only one geyser than in BW, right?
You do get a lot more minerals than before from the macro mechanics and the yellow minerals, so that has to have some effect in the game (more basic units and static defenses).
as far as i hawe experienced it was always harder to get the vespene gas than minerals in starcraft brood war also.
u often hawe to make an expansion just to get more gas so id say it pretty much looks like blizzard tottaly intends it to be this way keeping true to the old starcraft game must say i hawent tried the beta yet tho.
From watching streams it seemed to me that the having lots of minerals, but not a lot of gas was intentional. First of all it makes expanding very important. Second of all it forces you to use the basic units that don't cost gas throughout the whole game.
For instance I'll see someone revving up to get battlecruisers, and they'll just use those. However, in the meantime they also could have created a formidable army of marines to back them up.
________
RossiePUSSY
If you put an extractor/refinery/assimilator on both geysers in your base you gather gas about 1.5x faster than you would in Brood War.Quote:
But you don't get the same gas income from only one geyser than in BW, right?
In BW many build orders were based around getting the extra gas online asap (especially in TvP, ZvT and even in PvZ). As we learned more about the game and how it changed after the last balance patch, it became less necessary as the maps were evened out.
Gas is supposed to be much more scarce. Its a different types of resource in SC2 not just green minerals.
That said perhaps some sort of depleted mechanic would improve late game gameplay. Perhaps a Min->Gas drilling ability.
I support gas being more important in SC2.
I do NOT support it being more important through limiting it.
Personally, and I have said this from the start, I would prefer a way to convert minerals into gas (or some kind of gas equivalent) for a diminishing return (say, 4 minerals = 1 gas). I would create some very interesting strategies and we'd see more of the gas heavy units like HT and Ravens (which are some of the more interesting units IMHO).
Actually the idea is to make Minerals "plentifull" to the point of not making the Macro mechanics onedimentional. Queen, OC and Chronoboost all improve Mineralincome AND other stuff. These will only be used if the opportunity cost (minerals) isnīt severe. I donīt think that the concept of "too much" is entirely bad for the game it means that "best income" isnīt automatically "max income".
Rather than removing the distinction between Minerals and Gas they should lower Gascosts on overpriced units.
um, seriously noQuote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
that would be the worst idea put in SC2
Taking argument lessons from Archer I see.Quote:
Originally Posted by spychi
FYI: You're supposed to say WHY it would a bad idea, instead of making random remarks.
And no, PC was the worst ting put into SC2.
well i should add, for me that would be the worst idea...why?Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
I just think that StarCraft resource mechanics should stay intact
Sorry, DSquid, but the gas mechanics were way worse. PC was loud, dumb, and obnoxious, but it was never as bad as any incarnation of the gas mechanics.Quote:
And no, PC was the worst ting put into SC2.
I see where you're coming from, but it looked OK in-game. Not great or good, but kinda OK. The gas mechanics were still far worse, as they affected the gameplay of all three races. Whereas the old Infestor model only affected Zerg players and people playing against Zerg players who use Infestors.Quote:
*cough*
We will never let Samwise do acid on the job every again.
Thus depleting your base and your expansion's gas faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
True, but, I would prefer the gas mechanics being implemented the way NoobonicPlague suggested (the Minerals > Gas part). I didn't like Blizzard one either.
No matter what, I still get the feeling that going for high gas units such as Battlecruisers will end up as big failure as strategy goes on. Take for example this videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2zbvwbfltU
I like this one
Depleted Gas Drilling
-Depleted Assimilator/Refinery/Extractor has a Drill ability costing X minerals
-Gas can be extracted half normal rate
-Effect ends after Y time
I agree with DemoS's initial POV that it should not be more important via limitation, hence, Blizz should try to implement higher Totals in their geysers rather than the current. They halved teh rate of harvesting and increased the number of geysers by 2 - however, they still need to increase the total gas in 1 geyser to make it even, given that we're trading 4-6 workers to harvest gas from minerals very early on; and those minerals if used correctly, fund more production buildings and tier1 units or more cannons (for Protoss) to defend early tech rushes.
The idea to have minerals exchanged for gas is pretty interesting since it creates an opportunity cost for every mineral you trade. The only thing is that the ability to trade should have a 4-5 min delay from the start of game. That should make it more "critical" to making tech choices, because you tech right about then after building your initial structures and tier1 units.
Also, for those disagreeing, what's wrong specifically in having a system to in-trade resources for the player?
Then why didn't you support the idea when Noobonic posted it? You usually make a poll on Blizzforums and TeamLiquid. I don't think I've seen such things.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
I know NoobonicPlague worded it somewhat complex (and with a reciprocal idea), but this is the main point. Do you think that if enough people like this idea, it could make into SC2?
I don't know when n00b posted his idea but this was in my thesis. I thought n00bs had a complicated scaleing factor that I dont totally agree with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josue
Depletion.Quote:
Originally Posted by protoswarrior
Yeah, sort of. But the main point (Each Depleted Assimilator/Refinery/Extractor has a Drill ability costing X minerals ) was already there.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Besides, Noobonic's post was on the frist page of a thread you had seen and replied... I wonder why didn't you see it! I dreamed of that mechanic in the game, I really wished for it.
I read N00bs mechanics several times. In fact Ive ready probably close to every macro mechanic that has been proposed here and back on blizzforums going all the way back to 2008. I dont respond to everyone ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Josue
Well, we're human after all... *Sigh*Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Do you think it could still make it into the game? as an Expansion feature maybe?
I agree that it's good for gas to be scarcer than minerals, but I also agree that vespene shouldn't be so limited. Late game is much more interesting when it's played with higher tech units (especially casters). Late game units cost gas, and it seems that by the time most players reach late game, they'll be getting most of the way through their vespene reserves.
Perhaps, as others suggested, there ought to be some way to exchange minerals for gas. Or at least a way to continue to get tiny amounts of vespene from (mostly) depleted geysers.
I'd vote for a min->gas mechanic, so long as it's identical for all three races. Well, I guess it doesn't have to be identical, but do we want yet another thing to balance?
i suggest minerals should be depleted and rise back slowly just like in red alert. the moment you have tons of minerals in sc, half of the excitement and strategy is lost, you just mass build anything you want.
I've come up with all sorts of resource mechanics, some better than others. One of them took the original gas mechanic and had a limited number of times it could be done, each time increasing mineral cost and decreasing gas yield. At some point I tried to combine it with a mineral mechanic that allowed workers to get a +M per trip boost for a fixed number of trips at a fixed gas cost. That combination made resources extremely flexible, potentially allowing a player to turn a build order on a dime and do something completely different.
A few days ago I thought about blizzard's direction with the macro mechanics and decided it might be interesting to make the Terrans the only ones with mineral/gas resource mechanics, as it suits their theme better than the other two races. My most recent incarnation of the gas mechanic is the ability to increase not the total amount in each geyser but rather the per trip yield for workers gathering gas. Purely as an example, let's say a Refinery costs 100 minerals and SCVs gather gas at a rate of 4 per trip. This mechanic would allow the player to spend something like 50 minerals to increase that rate to, say, 6 per trip. You increase your gathering rate as if you had gained a partial geyser, but you don't get any more total gas than you would have had you just left the geyser alone. So, you still need to expand, but you can accelerate the advancement towards high-level units and tech if desired.
Anyway, just another one of my random ideas :p
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Originally Posted by n00bonicPlague
Right - because T needs another way to get fast reapers :p
I think the issue needs to be balanced. I see what Blizz is trying to do by limiting gas and for the most part I agree. Don't forget these are all official "Blizz" maps - they'll be tons of recreations of SC maps that will be awesome and have more gas.
~LoA
I think the big thing is that there is a difference in whats good for gameplay early game and whats good for gameplay late.
Let's just keep it simple:
Minerals-->Gas
Depleted Gas Drilling
-Depleted Assimilator/Refinery/Extractor has a Drill ability costing X minerals
-Vespene Geyser gets Y quantity of Gas which can be extracted again
-Drill can be used Z times before vespene geyser becomes completely depleted thus becoming exhausted of resources.
This way you can "Pay" for more gas with minerals
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josue
Thats making it more complicated.
Let's just keep it simple:
Depleted Gas Drilling
-Depleted Assimilator/Refinery/Extractor has a Drill ability costing X minerals
-Vespene Geyser gets Y quantity of Gas which can be extracted again
-Drill can be used Z times
Err what? isn't it the same thing I said but just reworded? Anyways, That's what I was going for.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
I clipped off the end.
That means that any base with only 1 geyser is going to get 0.75x the gas rate of BW. I hope that can be modified in the editor, so if you want to give the players faster gas income you aren't forced to put 2 geysers everywhere. Specially because minerals can be gathered at faster rates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Remember that there needs to be a correlation between number of Bases and "Player-power". Gas is pretty much the only limitation on how strong a Player can get under ideal conditions since Mineralincome can get "too much" with proper Macro Mechanic ussage.
I think the resource to nexus/cc/hatch is like 1 square closer in comparison to that of scbw.
Also, if you look at worker harvesting in scbw, SCVs have a slight delay when turning, probes have even slighter ones, and drones turn quickly.
All I'm saying is that the diversity is gone.
Why? It shouldn't be modifiable (not without going UMS). Why would you want to make bases with one geyser?Quote:
That means that any base with only 1 geyser is going to get 0.75x the gas rate of BW. I hope that can be modified in the editor, so if you want to give the players faster gas income you aren't forced to put 2 geysers everywhere. Specially because minerals can be gathered at faster rates.
The whole point of Blizzard doing it this way is to make gas cost more. If you want gas, you have to pay for it. You have to pay 50% more in overall costs for the extractor, and 100% more in workers for it. By changing this, you're changing the fundamental resourcing model around which all unit and building costs are based.
That is not acceptable.
That kind of "diversity" isn't a good thing anyway. Basic mineral income should not be something that differs between races.Quote:
Also, if you look at worker harvesting in scbw, SCVs have a slight delay when turning, probes have even slighter ones, and drones turn quickly.
All I'm saying is that the diversity is gone.