Help - Zerg midgame vs Terran

My Zerg midgame vs Terran seems to be extremely weak. I keep getting steamrolled by Tanks and Thors with Infantry support. It seems to be an extremely hard nut to crack with Tier 2 Zerg units.

I've been avoiding a Brood War mentality, but I get the impression that Zerg still need to stall Terrans at Tier 2 and get Hive tech ASAP in order to beat them. I 'accidentally' did that strategy and came close to winning. If I had actually entered the game with that strategy in mind and not hanged around Tier 2 for so long, I think I could have won that game.

What do you guys think? Rather than preventing the Terran player from acquiring such an army, is it possible for Zerg to actually fight Terrans head-on in a Tier 2 war?

I think the key to ZvT right now are Speedling/Speedbanes and Hydralisks. The speedlings can take out the factory tech and the speedbanes can take out or at least soften up the infantry. Hydralisks can take out the Thor or if they get Hellions.

Fungal Growth or Mutalisk harassment might help too. I'm not sure.

I don't really play Zerg, but i suggest trying to get some multilisk out to counter the siege, and if the Terran goes Battlecruiser, go corrupter.

If that doesn't work out, banelings are a risk but can really get you out of some tight spots, just be careful about how you use them.

It seems clear that the difficulties Zerg have at Tier 2 revolve around whatever is missing from the Overseer. Give it a useful spell for dealing with a mixed force like that (acid spores was great), and you're good to go.

That being said, if a Terran player can power out both Thors and Siege Tanks, one of two things must have happened:

1: He expanded.

2: You left him alone and didn't attack.

#2 means you're an idiot. If a Terran wants to make it to Tier 2, make them earn for it.

#1 means that you have some opportunities to harass and contain. Also, it's important to remember that Corruption works on all buildings. Missile turrets included. Unless they have a Thor sitting in the mineral field of both bases, you can pretty much raid at will unless they spend lots of money.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

It seems clear that the difficulties Zerg have at Tier 2 revolve around whatever is missing from the Overseer. Give it a useful spell for dealing with a mixed force like that (acid spores was great), and you're good to go.

That being said, if a Terran player can power out both Thors and Siege Tanks, one of two things must have happened:

1: He expanded.

2: You left him alone and didn't attack.

#2 means you're an idiot. If a Terran wants to make it to Tier 2, make them earn for it.

#1 means that you have some opportunities to harass and contain. Also, it's important to remember that Corruption works on all buildings. Missile turrets included. Unless they have a Thor sitting in the mineral field of both bases, you can pretty much raid at will unless they spend lots of money.

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Did you even read the rest of my post or stop after the first paragraph? I know how much it matters to harass, but my question is whether or not Zerg can take on Terrans in a head-on fight in Tier 2. Just assume both sides leave each other alone until the midgame with no harassment and then have a Tier 2 war.

You seem to agree that the onus is on the Zerg player to harass the Terran and that Zerg's Tier 2 tech is insufficient to deal with what the Terrans can field at that tech level.

So heres my zerg build i've been using vs toss and terran


Drones
Overlord - 10
Drone
Drone
Drone
Hatch - 13
Pool - 12
Drone until pool half done and make a ovy somtime towards end ( i think)
300 minerals when spawning pool pops - make queen/lings

At this point your scouting overlord should be to there base if not quickly send a zergling scout. Take both extractors asap once you think your safe, remember to bring in your queen to any fight and maintain good macro with her.

Once you have enough for lair POP it and take your expand gas, and start speedling upgrade. At this point you might need some more lings or even a spine crawler or two, but usally not -- remember to drone up when you feel its safe!

When your lair is done put down ure spire asap, and make sure you own all the towers on the map still and know what hes up too in general (taking a expand or going factory or going MnM). When your spire is half done begin saving larva ( you might find the money to add a 3 hatch a bit before this point I usally do) Keep using your queen and make as many muta as possible when spire pops.

Take your 6-8 muta to there base and do damage but keep them alive at all cost -- You will win alot of games right now haha but try to pick off scvs or depots and keep them in there base, deny a expo if they dont have one already.

Drone up and take a expo while putting down your hydra den....look at the map and make sure that you have good map vision and decide what expo you want to take and take it. Also plop down your baneling nest.

Your muta harras will be coming to the end at this point ( or earlyer) Make sure your pumping hydras when your den pops and make some banelings when you feel its right -- and get speed upgrade and range when possible, usally asap as well.

Your hydra only army CAN last vs MnMnM but once he adds tanks its going to get rolled so be carful. Now as the game transitions into late game make sure you add yet another hatch in your base. You usally need 2 queens to support 4 hatches but really you dont even need it you have like infinte larva with one queen and 3 hatcheries. Make sure your expo is secure and get a massive force of lings banelings and hydras.

Late late game:

Take expos as possible.
Get corruptors like 5-6
Get Hive
Get greater spire and ultra cavern
Morph your brood lords -- and start ultra upgrades

Play defensively and get ultras asap so your end game amry is Ultra Hydra baneling ling brood lord.

Note: This build has not lost to toss yet, but the toss has never survived mutas either haha

Note 2: Hydras are amazing units on creep, make sure your using your queens abblity to spread creep and overlords to drop it all over the damn place, seriously hydras + creep make them so so much better.

Note 3; There is room to get upgrades in this build -- do so when you feel its right.

Note 4: HAVE MAP PRESENCE, specially vs reapers, for instance if you own both towers with 1 ling each on lost temple your pretty much immune to reapers.

What about speedlings + roaches ?

I heard that the brood lords are overpowered. Shouldn't we attack the mineral line from behind with a few of those to destroy their economy?
It would work damn well, and even 6 of them could take out a base with medium resistance and the right conditions.

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Just assume both sides leave each other alone until the midgame with no harassment and then have a Tier 2 war.

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Why? That's like saying, "Hey, I want to lose! I'm going to adopt a play-style that causes me to lose."

Victory is first achieved by choosing to win. The question of whether the Zerg can handle the Terrans getting that army composition is irrelevant to the question of why you're allowing it to come to be in the first place. No strategy should revolve around allowing the opponent to do whatever the hell they want. That is a strategy bound for failure.

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So heres my zerg build i've been using vs toss and terran

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How does that survive fast-Reapers? You expand before pool, so SpeedLings aren't even in the picture. They should easily be able to get 8 Reapers in to sack your natural.

That's way too greedy of a build to actually work. And there's no way you can hide or disguise it; you have only Drones to defend with for a long time. The only way this could possibly work is on a large 4-player map, cross-spots, and that's only if the Terran somehow scouts you as late as possible.

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Note: This build has not lost to toss yet, but the toss has never survived mutas either haha

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There is no way that thing can survive 3-Gate Zealot. No chance in hell. You'll be getting maybe 8 Zerglings out by the time 4 Zealots show up. At best, you'll have one Sunken finished, but more likely it will still be in production.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Why? That's like saying, "Hey, I want to lose! I'm going to adopt a play-style that causes me to lose."

Victory is first achieved by choosing to win. The question of whether the Zerg can handle the Terrans getting that army composition is irrelevant to the question of why you're allowing it to come to be in the first place. No strategy should revolve around allowing the opponent to do whatever the hell they want. That is a strategy bound for failure.

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Listen to yourself - you're not even disagreeing with anything I'm saying. :p

In a Mid-lategame PvZ, you might hear advice like: "get Zerglings and Hydras to beat Stalkers, Zealots, and Immortals with Sentry support" or "get Mutas to counter Colossi with ground support". In a mid-lategame TvZ, the strategy is simply: "Don't let them get that army."

A simple "yes" would have sufficed. :p