Re: How much have fans helped against SC2 ?
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Originally Posted by
MattII
Actually they don't mention the change. Besides, why are you adament that Blizzard only dropped it due to fan pressure, their reasons seem perfectly good to me, nothing like the 'too much of an emotional connection with the original unit' that we got with the Tempest.
I never said that they dropped it only due to fan pressure, and, considering the points they put forward, they clearly didn't. They probably do things based on a multitude of points. What I'm pointing out is that fan opinion is a major one, whether people accept it or not.
You have to think of it from a business perspective; fans are customers. The number of vocal fans represent literally millions of buyers. Another point to consider is that vocal fans likely represent the more extreme buyer, and the average buyer will not be so swayed, but the point of view is still critical to observe.
As a business, you want to make your customers happy, but obviously you can't do everything they want. You can't give your product away for free, or you can't produce it at a loss, just because you're trying to make them happy.
What I'm saying is frequently, Blizzard will listen to the vocal fans and say, "Ok, that's a good point, we'll do this, drop that, change this, but on our terms," so they may change some things, or keep others, or slightly alter another, because, just like balancing WoW, you can't make everybody perfectly happy, and making the game perfect really isn't possible.
Just as well, though, they need to recognize when fans are just being overly critical and/or whiny, and they need to ignore us.
Re: How much have fans helped against SC2 ?
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Originally Posted by
Nicol Bolas
I don't remember any particular outcry against the Tempest.
Then you have worse memory than i do, and that's serious :p. I remember most people being very pessimistic about the ship mechanics, and few supporters. When it got scrapped, a sizeable amount of people started complaining about the unit being scrapped for nostalgia motives.
Even then, they don't exactly said that:
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The Carrier - yes, you read that right -the Carrier has returned along with its interceptors. The "dark carrier", the Tempest, is out. Dustin said that the Tempest didn't feel right and that there was too much of an emotional connection with the original unit. He mentioned that if you asked someone what his/her favorite Protoss units were, the Carrier is one that is always near the top of the list. And he's right.
The first thing that he says is "the Tempest didn't feel right" followed by "and there was too much of an emotional connection with the original unit".
That means, that the primary motive was that "the Tempest didn't feel right", just like the Soul Hunter.
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Originally Posted by
ManjiSanji
Actually, I think for the most part, when it comes to creative suggestions, Blizzard ignores them, because using them could turn in to the whole, "well, they used my idea, so I should get credit for it," that they want to avoid.
I doubt it, they stealed taken inspiration from every place they could :D.
(no strike-thru, lame).
Re: How much have fans helped against SC2 ?
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Originally Posted by
Norfindel
The first thing that he says is "the Tempest didn't feel right" followed by "and there was too much of an emotional connection with the original unit".
That means, that the primary motive was that "the Tempest didn't feel right", just like the Soul Hunter.
The SH was dropped because it had serious readability and balance issues, while the Tempest was dropped because of 'too much of an emotional connection with the original unit', but that would have come from the alpha-testers, not us, the sideline fans.
Re: How much have fans helped against SC2 ?
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Originally Posted by
ManjiSanji
Hmm, that's a fair point. I wonder if there's been any precedent for that?
Or I wonder if any game-producing company has approached a fan who has produced something worthwhile (I've seen a number of ideas, and in particular, artistic concepts that would be fantastic material for some games) and offered to purchase the idea or hire the person.
Seems a good business decision to me, most notably if said artist consistently produces unique and high-quality concepts.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there've been a number of units that share a conceptual similarity with things I've suggested in the past. Whether Blizzard read them before or not is questionable (which is entirely my point) and I've thus far not been offered a job there yet. :D
So yes, I think there's precedence where either two people think alike or one's copied the other and everyone just thinks they think alike.
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Originally Posted by
MattII
The SH was dropped because it had serious readability and balance issues, while the Tempest was dropped because of 'too much of an emotional connection with the original unit', but that would have come from the alpha-testers, not us, the sideline fans.
Well, the same was true about the Mothership, Queen, Thor and Ghost, amongst numerous others. Yet, they continue to this day. Regarding readability, that's an easily resolved issue. So clearly, something else must have contributed to its rejection. Fan response seems most likely/obvious.
Re: How much have fans helped against SC2 ?
EDIT: Screw it. This was a silly thing to argue over anyway.
Re: How much have fans helped against SC2 ?
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Originally Posted by
mr. peasant
Well, the same was true about the Mothership, Queen, Thor and Ghost, amongst numerous others. Yet, they continue to this day.
Firstly, what makes the Thor hard to read? Secondly, all those other units are spellcasters, they don't receive mega-upgrades to their attacks, whereas the SH did, that was what made it hard to read, you couldn't tell till it was too late whether it was at full power or not.
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Regarding readability, that's an easily resolved issue. So clearly, something else must have contributed to its rejection. Fan response seems most likely/obvious.
Actually, as stated, the SH was also too heavily targetted vs. Zerg, because it levelled up its attack by killing weak units, of which the Zerg have a lot more than the Terran or Protoss.
Re: How much have fans helped against SC2 ?
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Well, the same was true about the Mothership, Queen, Thor and Ghost, amongst numerous others. Yet, they continue to this day.
I don't recall them saying that there were "balance issues" specifically. Their statement was simply that they put it through testing and it didn't work out. Much like the Predator, Firebat-from-Factory, and many other units we never saw or even heard about (the Omegalisk, whatever the old Infestor model was for, etc).
The only difference was that the Soul Hunter was showcased in a video once. And that a lot of people said they didn't like it.
Re: How much have fans helped against SC2 ?
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Originally Posted by
MattII
Firstly, what makes the Thor hard to read? Secondly, all those other units are spellcasters, they don't receive mega-upgrades to their attacks, whereas the SH did, that was what made it hard to read, you couldn't tell till it was too late whether it was at full power or not.
Actually, as stated, the SH was also too heavily targetted vs. Zerg, because it levelled up its attack by killing weak units, of which the Zerg have a lot more than the Terran or Protoss.
I think he's more arguing that those units have been controversial and have gone through many changes trying to make them useful or to make them fit in.
If the developers want to keep a unit, then they will do their best to do so, as they have most notably proven with the Thor, Queen and Mothership in particular.
They could have altered the Soul Hunter's role if they really liked the unit, the model, or the idea, but they just flat scrapped it instead, which implies they didn't like it as much as they like those other units.
Re: How much have fans helped against SC2 ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MattII
The SH was dropped because it had serious readability and balance issues, while the Tempest was dropped because of 'too much of an emotional connection with the original unit', but that would have come from the alpha-testers, not us, the sideline fans.
I don't know what's the logic of reading "the Tempest didn't feel right *AND* there was too much of an emotional connection with the original unit" and taking that as "nostalgia was the only factor".
The unit didn't feel right, and i agree. How can a Protoss air unit capable of attacking other air units, but with no Shields against them and reinforced against ground attacks can feel right? The unit was basically a modified Carrier. It looked like a Carrier, and launched "drones" like a Carrier, but the modifications were far from practical, and were opened to very hard countering.
I think that bringing back the Carrier was the natural step, emotional aspects aside.
Re: How much have fans helped against SC2 ?
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reinforced against ground attacks
I don't recall it's shields being especially reinforced vs. ground attacks. It's more like it had disproportionately more shield strength overall, so that you can let ground units hammer away at it.
Speaking of shield strength, here's a possible reason why it went away. With shield regen being as fast as it is, even when only out of combat, the ability to attack for a while, take maybe 300+ points of damage, then fall back for maybe 45-50 seconds while you recover all of that may have been too strong. Plus, if you get too many of them together, you start getting Carrier critical mass problems, only it's much worse since they can take out the only units that are strong against them quickly (air units).
