Need Help PvZ and PvT

Okay - so straight up I'm like a 90% P player and I'm having a hard time countering a well-timed reaper rush and a well-timed roach rush.

Normally I do something like a 2g rush with 4z (depending on the map), continue to pump and tech to stalkers so if it doesn't work out I'm not screwed.

However, when a terran walls and I can't scout the fast reaper (or even if I know it's coming), I'm having a hard time countering correctly? Thoughts?

Similarly - roaches just eat my zealots alive and stalkers aren't really that good without enough to do something. What can I use to survive?

What about taking out Hydras without having to rely on Colossi?

Mutas? (stalkers suck) and unless I know they're coming I don't normally bring pheonixes?

What have you other P players been doing?

~LoA

Ive been having the same problems. For Reaper and Hydra I suggest Zealots with quickly upgraded Charge supported by Senties. Mutas are a bitch... still working on a counter.

I think for Mutas you need to scout them and get Phoenix. Or just assume they're coming and get Phoenix anyway (note: I'm saying this as a Zerg player, so take my opinion with a grain of salt). Void Rays are pretty worth-while anyway if you do go SGate, and there isn't much Zerg can do against air right now.

Roaches and Reapers... I think Squids onto something with the Sentinel shield idea. That combined with Stalkers could work pretty well. That's a pretty hefty gas cost, though.

Honestly, Roaches and Reapers are just... really powerful units right now. I have no idea how to stop a reaper raid... especially as Zerg.

I think we've found the first really broken unit: Reapers.

Hmm.. It's hard to say what to do against reapers... Roaches are a bit easier...

Reapers: I would say you need one of the following combinations

a) Zealots with charge and Sentries (Casting guardian shield) - Sentries have 1 additional range than reapers and do bonus damage vs biological. Zealots should be able to last longer with guardian shield over them.

B) Stalkers and Sentries (Casting force field) - You should be able to cast force field and keep the reapers out of range, but still in range of the stalkers.

I'm not really sure if this will work, as there may be an imbalance here with the reapers. They do seem incredibly strong against both zerg and protoss...


Roaches: Here I would suggest Immortals. Roaches are "armored" and immortals do 20 damage + 30 to armored. So, thats 50 damage every time they shoot at the roach. Immortals also have better range and should be able take down the roaches fairly quick. I have seen them kill roaches fast.

If Reapers get surrounded somehow (ling, zealot) they cant 'jump out' can they?

yeah but for the videos i have seen so far is very difficult to surround the reapers with lings in the begging of the game.

Your biggest tool against reapers is map presence, if you own most of the towers you'll see them coming. I havent had problem with reapers I knew were coming yet.

Also reapers are gas heavy units, if they rush to reapers - and fail to do any damage there front is vulnerable since they dont have any tanks!

I think rushing to the charge upgrade might work. I dont know though I think they are probably going to get nerfed.

I don't see why you have so much problems with Reapers, as Zerg you can so easily counter them with lings and roaches :/ How many Reapers do they attack you with?

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Originally Posted by LXM

I don't see why you have so much problems with Reapers, as Zerg you can so easily counter them with lings and roaches :/ How many Reapers do they attack you with?

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8-10, problem is their Attack on buildings which does 40 damage... 10 Reapers can easily take out your Lair before you can kill them... At least that is what I saw on some videos. And yes, on the same video I saw that Terran player losing to that Zerg, even if he did destroyed his lair really early on. Reapers are gas heavy and then Terran didn't have nothing but bunch of Marines.

Loa, did you tried Sentries vs Mutas? And I mean a bit more than a few Sentries, since as far as I know, they work great vs Mutas. Even in they description says that they are Strong against them. Just a suggestion.

Sentries with stalkers should work.


Immortals on roaches if they arnt too far off techwise.

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Originally Posted by Islandsnake

Your biggest tool against reapers is map presence, if you own most of the towers you'll see them coming. I havent had problem with reapers I knew were coming yet.

Also reapers are gas heavy units, if they rush to reapers - and fail to do any damage there front is vulnerable since they dont have any tanks!

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this sounds very wise.

Reaper's aren't that bad, at least to me. They're just really strong early on, especially against Zerg. I do admit that the D-8 Charges need a small damage reduction, maybe replaced by a quicker firing rate for the charges. I'm just Theory-crafting, but Roaches seem like a decent counter to Reapers since they count as Armored, right? The Sentries seem like a decent counter for the Protoss, or at least help mitigate their bonus damage with Guardian Aura.

hells yeah. one roach can kill like 3 reapres i think. becsue their 2 starting armor realy does wonders aswell.

but i guess, with zergling speed & creep it isnt even really needed. but its an option if nothing else.

to speak quite freely, i think reapers would still be very usefull with an EXTREME nerf to the d8-damage ... 15 damage a pop would be enough!
but it might be mor intresting to keep it at 20-25 and give it a longer cooldown isntead, to promote hit & runs / target switching even more.

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to speak quite freely, i think reapers would still be very usefull with an EXTREME nerf to the d8-damage ... 15 damage a pop would be enough!

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I think I'd prefer they just stick the D8 charge back into the game... =\ Though if that still affects buildings it might be even worse...

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

I think I'd prefer they just stick the D8 charge back into the game... =\ Though if that still affects buildings it might be even worse...

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It wouldn't be much worse, but as ability had only CD, no energy or resource cost, could kill all your workers, and couldn't be destroyed... So they basically could just put 10 mines, and finish workers and then run-away, come back when they have CD again, destroy your building or two, repeat...

it looks to me like toss going for like some wallin and phasecannons to fast voidrays are kinda like "immune" to the mentioned rushes.

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Originally Posted by Drakkart

it looks to me like toss going for like some wallin and phasecannons to fast voidrays are kinda like "immune" to the mentioned rushes.

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Walling in is very important. I usually build my first pylon and gateway or two to mostly block off my choke, leaving a space big enough for a unit to still get through, then use a zealot or later immortal to fill up that hole to act as kind of door. Its not nearly as effective or cheap as the Terrans supply depots which can now rise and lower, but it gets the job done.

Eh, isn't walling in with Zealots usually better?

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

Eh, isn't walling in with Zealots usually better?

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Not for me. I need to build these things anyway, might as well put their HP to good use.

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10 Reapers can easily take out your Lair before you can kill them... At least that is what I saw on some videos.

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The Zerg player deserved to lose his Lair. Speedlings absolutely dominate any number of Reapers quickly and completely. If he couldn't get a decent number of Zerglings out by the time the Terran got 10 Reapers, he didn't deserve to have a Lair.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

The Zerg player deserved to lose his Lair. Speedlings absolutely dominate any number of Reapers quickly and completely. If he couldn't get a decent number of Zerglings out by the time the Terran got 10 Reapers, he didn't deserve to have a Lair.

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Oh, posh. The things are insanely fast and can climb up and down terrain. They can kill your lair WELL before you get any army units besides your Queen over there. Granted, that probably means I should scout more, but still. A 75/25 unit that deals 45 damage to buildings is nuts. And tech-wise, you actually can't scout it because it has the same tech requirement as the Marauder. And the Marauder counters completely different things.

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They can kill your lair WELL before you get any army units besides your Queen over there.

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That could only be true if you didn't have any other units in your base. Which means that your army was out of position, and you left no defenses in your base. And that is exactly what a harassment unit is designed to punish.

Punishment earned, punishment delivered.

I always leave 10-12 Zerglings in my base vs. Terrans. And I use self-replicating Creep Tumors and Overlords to make sure that my SpeedLings are damn fast on defense.

Reapers are nothing that you can't deal with. The only problem (as a Zerg) comes when you choose not to deal with them, when you do things that will allow them a chance to hurt you. And overuse of Reapers is very easy to punish; just kill their Reapers, break their front, and feast on the SCVs.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

I always leave 10-12 Zerglings in my base vs. Terrans. And I use self-replicating Creep Tumors and Overlords to make sure that my SpeedLings are damn fast on defense.

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Even if they're in my natural, a good sized army of reapers can bring down a Lair before they get back there.

Depends on the map. But on something like Desert Oasis it's very easy to mess up. 45 damage to buildings is just flat out WAY TOO MUCH. They don't even need to research it.

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Even if they're in my natural, a good sized army of reapers can bring down a Lair before they get back there.

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Again, do you have a Creep path from your main to your natural? If not, why not? If you have a Lair, you certainly can build one, even without Creep tumors.

Also, what is a "good-sized" army, and how is it that the only tech you have against them (since it takes a lot of gas and time to build one) is Zerglings?

Generally, if a Terran player is going to seriously Reaper-rush, kill their Reapers, make Banelings and bust their front. Works almost every time. They can't recover from losing their Reapers fast enough to stop 5 Banelings from breaking the front.

Also, it sounds to me like you're expanding way too soon, if you have a natural during the Reaper-rush phase. No wonder you're getting rolled.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Again, do you have a Creep path from your main to your natural? If not, why not? If you have a Lair, you certainly can build one, even without Creep tumors.

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The map I got my Lair taken out on was Desert Oasis. The natural is a bit too far away for a creep path. In this case, I can't remember what I had. I think I might have had Infesters/Hydralisks... but I can't remember. I'm assuming because my typical strategy at that time was to go into Lair-tech then Infesters and Hydralisks or Corruptors.

Bleh, also hard to scout on that map effectively. With the two path-ways and all.

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Also, what is a "good-sized" army, and how is it that the only tech you have against them (since it takes a lot of gas and time to build one) is Zerglings?

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I think he had about 10 reapers maybe?

Well, I've improved a lot since that match where my Lair got taken out, I didn't really have any idea how to use banelings back then. (Didn't realize you could auto-cast the 'attack building' spell.) And I've since learned how to do so.

Regardless, 45 damage against anything for a unit with a 50/50 cost and that kind of mobility is PRETTY crazy. I mean with Hellions they're only good against light units, and you can at least stop them with a wall-in, static defenses or some stalkers and maybe Roaches. A LOT harder to do that than with Reapers. Though they need to upgrade their speed.

And I also think the corresponding tech with Marauders is problematic.

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Originally Posted by rdragon87

Reaper's aren't that bad, at least to me. They're just really strong early on, especially against Zerg. I do admit that the D-8 Charges need a small damage reduction, maybe replaced by a quicker firing rate for the charges. I'm just Theory-crafting, but Roaches seem like a decent counter to Reapers since they count as Armored, right? The Sentries seem like a decent counter for the Protoss, or at least help mitigate their bonus damage with Guardian Aura.

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Just wondering, what does guardian aura do? Yah know, for those people not in the beta. Its not on scwiki lol.

EDIT: nvm, I got it off Triceron's thread lol. I forgot about it for a second XD.

I've been finding lately that Protoss have to play defensively against these tactics.

Roaches I have absolutely no idea how to beat without sentries. Every game I play now I rely on getting sentries, and using their shield on the ramp. By the time their roach rush comes, you can have some zealots, a sentry or two, and a stalker or two. Just shield after 3-4 roaches have come up the ramp, and kill that. It keeps you alive, and hurts the zerg enough that he can't attack.

After that I Have no problem, once you build up a stalker army roaches aren't a problem.

As for reapers, scouting with probes and just keeping a few stalkers in your base is the only thing I can do to prevent it. If i don't know what they're doing, I automatically keep a few in base.

(However, I also feel that they do way too much building damage, I once had 10 or something in my base and they literally just ran around 1 shotting pylons every volley) Ever since then I make sure I have enough stalkers to defend.

My experience with this has been the following:

Reapers:
If you scout and can detect early enough, get 2 canons in your mineral line with about 5 stalkers and a sentry and you should be good, odds are you're going to lose one or both canons. Keep the front sealed up with lots. The front generally isn't the problem, as most the time (map depending) the reapers just jump up into the back. Generally I don't have a forge at that point though, so it's a really quick change in tech to get it and the canons up. Also if you can get ground weapons 1 researched it's a HUGE help.


Roaches:
Had a couple of interesting roach experiences last night. One was the game of wack-a-mole. Someone had teched really fast on zerg and roaches just borrowed into my base without me even noticing then proceeded to pop up and down all over the place. Surprisingly someone on my live stream shouted out BUILD IMMORTALS (getting some coaching lol) so I did, and they litterally obliterated the roaches and fast. In face I got out 2 colosus and about half a dozen immortals, the zerg player came in for another scout, saw what I had and immediately gave up....

I find it quite easy to do worker raids with Reapers. I think they will definitely get a nerf.

What I noticed kills reapers off nice are Hydras. And of course Phoenixes with Graviton, but you'd need to have a bunch and do some fast micro.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Ive been having the same problems. For Reaper and Hydra I suggest Zealots with quickly upgraded Charge supported by Senties. Mutas are a bitch... still working on a counter.

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I'm even having problems as Terran with Muta worker raid rush, don't think a bunch of marines can stop them believe it or not...you're going to have to dedicate a lot. I'm just not prepared for that aerial assault so fast & having to always dedicate resources to prevent it sucks.