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The Zerg player deserved to lose his Lair. Speedlings absolutely dominate any number of Reapers quickly and completely. If he couldn't get a decent number of Zerglings out by the time the Terran got 10 Reapers, he didn't deserve to have a Lair.Quote:
10 Reapers can easily take out your Lair before you can kill them... At least that is what I saw on some videos.
Oh, posh. The things are insanely fast and can climb up and down terrain. They can kill your lair WELL before you get any army units besides your Queen over there. Granted, that probably means I should scout more, but still. A 75/25 unit that deals 45 damage to buildings is nuts. And tech-wise, you actually can't scout it because it has the same tech requirement as the Marauder. And the Marauder counters completely different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
That could only be true if you didn't have any other units in your base. Which means that your army was out of position, and you left no defenses in your base. And that is exactly what a harassment unit is designed to punish.Quote:
They can kill your lair WELL before you get any army units besides your Queen over there.
Punishment earned, punishment delivered.
I always leave 10-12 Zerglings in my base vs. Terrans. And I use self-replicating Creep Tumors and Overlords to make sure that my SpeedLings are damn fast on defense.
Reapers are nothing that you can't deal with. The only problem (as a Zerg) comes when you choose not to deal with them, when you do things that will allow them a chance to hurt you. And overuse of Reapers is very easy to punish; just kill their Reapers, break their front, and feast on the SCVs.
Even if they're in my natural, a good sized army of reapers can bring down a Lair before they get back there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Depends on the map. But on something like Desert Oasis it's very easy to mess up. 45 damage to buildings is just flat out WAY TOO MUCH. They don't even need to research it.
Again, do you have a Creep path from your main to your natural? If not, why not? If you have a Lair, you certainly can build one, even without Creep tumors.Quote:
Even if they're in my natural, a good sized army of reapers can bring down a Lair before they get back there.
Also, what is a "good-sized" army, and how is it that the only tech you have against them (since it takes a lot of gas and time to build one) is Zerglings?
Generally, if a Terran player is going to seriously Reaper-rush, kill their Reapers, make Banelings and bust their front. Works almost every time. They can't recover from losing their Reapers fast enough to stop 5 Banelings from breaking the front.
Also, it sounds to me like you're expanding way too soon, if you have a natural during the Reaper-rush phase. No wonder you're getting rolled.
The map I got my Lair taken out on was Desert Oasis. The natural is a bit too far away for a creep path. In this case, I can't remember what I had. I think I might have had Infesters/Hydralisks... but I can't remember. I'm assuming because my typical strategy at that time was to go into Lair-tech then Infesters and Hydralisks or Corruptors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Bleh, also hard to scout on that map effectively. With the two path-ways and all.
I think he had about 10 reapers maybe?Quote:
Also, what is a "good-sized" army, and how is it that the only tech you have against them (since it takes a lot of gas and time to build one) is Zerglings?
Well, I've improved a lot since that match where my Lair got taken out, I didn't really have any idea how to use banelings back then. (Didn't realize you could auto-cast the 'attack building' spell.) And I've since learned how to do so.
Regardless, 45 damage against anything for a unit with a 50/50 cost and that kind of mobility is PRETTY crazy. I mean with Hellions they're only good against light units, and you can at least stop them with a wall-in, static defenses or some stalkers and maybe Roaches. A LOT harder to do that than with Reapers. Though they need to upgrade their speed.
And I also think the corresponding tech with Marauders is problematic.
Just wondering, what does guardian aura do? Yah know, for those people not in the beta. Its not on scwiki lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by rdragon87
EDIT: nvm, I got it off Triceron's thread lol. I forgot about it for a second XD.
I've been finding lately that Protoss have to play defensively against these tactics.
Roaches I have absolutely no idea how to beat without sentries. Every game I play now I rely on getting sentries, and using their shield on the ramp. By the time their roach rush comes, you can have some zealots, a sentry or two, and a stalker or two. Just shield after 3-4 roaches have come up the ramp, and kill that. It keeps you alive, and hurts the zerg enough that he can't attack.
After that I Have no problem, once you build up a stalker army roaches aren't a problem.
As for reapers, scouting with probes and just keeping a few stalkers in your base is the only thing I can do to prevent it. If i don't know what they're doing, I automatically keep a few in base.
(However, I also feel that they do way too much building damage, I once had 10 or something in my base and they literally just ran around 1 shotting pylons every volley) Ever since then I make sure I have enough stalkers to defend.
My experience with this has been the following:
Reapers:
If you scout and can detect early enough, get 2 canons in your mineral line with about 5 stalkers and a sentry and you should be good, odds are you're going to lose one or both canons. Keep the front sealed up with lots. The front generally isn't the problem, as most the time (map depending) the reapers just jump up into the back. Generally I don't have a forge at that point though, so it's a really quick change in tech to get it and the canons up. Also if you can get ground weapons 1 researched it's a HUGE help.
Roaches:
Had a couple of interesting roach experiences last night. One was the game of wack-a-mole. Someone had teched really fast on zerg and roaches just borrowed into my base without me even noticing then proceeded to pop up and down all over the place. Surprisingly someone on my live stream shouted out BUILD IMMORTALS (getting some coaching lol) so I did, and they litterally obliterated the roaches and fast. In face I got out 2 colosus and about half a dozen immortals, the zerg player came in for another scout, saw what I had and immediately gave up....
I find it quite easy to do worker raids with Reapers. I think they will definitely get a nerf.
What I noticed kills reapers off nice are Hydras. And of course Phoenixes with Graviton, but you'd need to have a bunch and do some fast micro.