The incomplete story of the Zerg Spellcasters

At present, I think the Zerg Casters need some major work.

They're obviously incomplete, but how would you like to see them completed? Or how do you think they should be completed?

First off we have the Queen, the first caster in the game. Right now, I think the Queen is in pretty good shape. It's the AA specialized Queen of olde. I think it's three abilities are pretty good. Transfusion is a little weak... but otherwise, she's great.

My only concern is that she's very, very vulnerable. She gets taken out by 10 reapers with ease, and she rarely has time to burrow. I think that a possible solution for this might be a lair and hive stat upgrade. Not as drastic as the large/huge queen upgrade from when she was first introduced, but just something to give her a bit of durability. I don't know if that's a good idea, though.

Second is the Overseer. Right now this guy is just... blatantly unfinished. To the point that his tooltip mentions he's supposed to have Fungal Growth. Which could be a good ability for him, I suppose. Otherwise, this guy just needs some abilities besides spawn changeling. My personal favourites from what have been connected to him are Spore Cloud and that sight-range extension ability. But there are quite a few other options.

Finally we have the Infester. Right now I find the Infester to be a lot of fun. He's just lacking some teeth. Neural Parasite only affects biological targets, but at the same time they've greatly reduced it's energy cost. So you can mind control A LOT of enemy units. Conversely, though, the units it affects have so little HP it often isn't worth it. The biggest targets he can hit are the Brood Lord and Ultralisk for the Zerg, and then the Marauder, Ghost and Zealot for Protoss and Terran. I haven't managed to affect any of these units with the spell as of yet.

Fungal Growth is a lot of fun. If you get a lot of Infesters it's very easy to stop an entire infantry army in it's tracks. It's especially fun when you can get it off on a melee unit like the Zealot and then use Siphon Life to wittle his health away. Otherwise, this ability isn't that exciting, though, and is rather limited in it's use.

Finally there is Siphon Life. An incredibly difficult ability to use as it has a short range. The Infester attaches itself to any enemy. (Works on mechanical units and BUILDINGS as well.) And then drains it's health and adds it to it's energy. It's a lot weaker than it sounds, though, but in part it makes the Infester into a bit of an attack unit. I'm not sure how I feel about this ability. It's REALLY tricky to use due to the Infester's vulnerability and the short range of the spell.

There are a lot of options and directions they could take the Infester in, and at this time I can't safely say what line-up of abilities I like on it. There aren't really any abilities that it can just pop-up with and screw over an entire army with. Like a neural parasite that could affect technological targets would be, or an Infest ability. But I really like Siphon Life and Fungal Growth, so I find it tricky to decide.

Thoughts?

As you said, I do like Siphon Life, and it is good and, let we say, balanced since it has short range, but it is great in combination with Fungal Growth. And about Neural Parasite, only if they changed it cost to 25-50 it is worth it, but even then it is really a crap ability now that doesn't affect Mech units...

Even that Zerg is my favorite race, I am getting more and more disappointed by the changes. Didn't like removing Lurker and Infested Terran at all! Roaches seems strange as Nicol Said in his Blog. Ultras nerfed hard, Overseers losing Acid Spores. And Hydras seems really strong since they do 12 damage to all kind of units, imbalanced, just as Corruption from Corruptors(30 sec, ROFL) and Nydus Worm :/
Also Corruptors losing their ability to make Corrupted Mass sucks even more...

At least Zerglings and Banelings stayed the same... Don't know what to think of Zerg... I hope they will see how many Broken and Unfinished stuff they have so they will fix them. :/

Also maybe I am wrong at some points, I don't play the beta, that is just what I saw from all streams and videos...

Hydralisks are not imbalanced. Those bastards are really expensive, and they don't have many Hp for their cost. Getting a big Hydralisk army takes a lot of gas.

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Neural Parasite only affects biological targets

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Oh, screw that! It's not like anyone but the Zerg has any significant bio targets.

I think the Infestor should be able to mind control casters as well (psionic creatures are currently immune to NP), to give it more versatility, but otherwise the Zerg caster lineup looks good enough. What function do you need filled? That's the main question. Giving a unit additional abilities because one feels like it is hardly good game design.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Hydralisks are not imbalanced. Those bastards are really expensive, and they don't have many Hp for their cost. Getting a big Hydralisk army takes a lot of gas.



Oh, screw that! It's not like anyone but the Zerg has any significant bio targets.

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Don't know, yes they cost 100/50 but with that attack speed and damage... I saw they utterly destroyed big Marine Army, I mean come on, Hydra takes 4 shots to kill a Marine... And you said that you destroyed a lot of Ultras with just Hydras, I mean it doesn't really mean that they are imbalanced but they are pretty strong.

And about neural parasite, I don't know if it affects Psionic units now... :/
If it doesn't, then it really is worthless...

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And about neural parasite, I don't know if it affects Psionic units now... :/
If it doesn't, then it really is worthless...

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You can mind control 16 zealots with 4 infesters with full energy.

That's... not... that impressive or game-turning, but it's something.

Still, I'd prefer a higher energy cost and the ability to affect mechanical units.

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Originally Posted by RamiZ

And about Neural Parasite, only if they changed it cost to 25-50 it is worth it, but even then it is really a crap ability now that doesn't affect Mech units...

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Take it easy will you? It's not like having an ability that can take over 4 Ultralisks in a few seconds is worthless. That actually sounds like a tide-turner to me. Abilities don't have to be equally useful against every race, after all.

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Originally Posted by RamiZ

Ultras nerfed hard, Overseers losing Acid Spores.

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Now every Zerg player has to think of alternatives to teching to Tier 3 and demolishing the enemy with Ultralisks. Plain horrible, indeed! :rolleyes:
Ultralisks were okay in SC 1, so having extra hitpoints and a bit more armor enhances that role, if anything.

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Originally Posted by RamiZ

And Hydras seems really strong since they do 12 damage to all kind of units, imbalanced,
just as Corruption from Corruptors(30 sec, ROFL)

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What Nicol said about hydras, plus AoE damage really hurts them. Hydras are strong, but that's not a bad thing, is it? The lack of versatility is one reason they were constantly moved from tier 1 to tier 2.
Regarding Corruption, it gives Zerg more raid options. 30 seconds deprivation of a geyser or a production building should be a good reason to get Corruptors, giving them a bit more versatility. Maybe 30 seconds is a bit too much, but it shouldn't be much lower than that.

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Originally Posted by RamiZ

and Nydus Worm :/

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With this, I agree the most. Nydus drops can kill an opponent right off, and a too quick Nydus Worm greatly reduces the chance to fight back.

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Originally Posted by RamiZ

Also Corruptors losing their ability to make Corrupted Mass sucks even more...

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Why? Having their damage nerfed was way worse in my opinion. Corrupted Mass does not move, and competitive players will move their units out of it's small range if they get to be an actual threat. The Corruptors new ability more than makes up for it.

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Take it easy will you? It's not like having an ability that can take over 4 Ultralisks in a few seconds is worthless. That actually sounds like a tide-turner to me.

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Know what else is a tide turner? 10 +2 Hydralisks (Hydras have a 2 damage mod, so that's 16 per shot). Why would you even build Ultralisks in ZvZ? Roaches are more effective.

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Regarding Corruption, it gives Zerg more raid options. 30 seconds deprivation of a geyser or a production building should be a good reason to get Corruptors, giving them a bit more versatility.

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Utterly pointless versatility. The corruption ability has nothing to do with what the corrupters supposed to DO.

The corrupter is an anti-air unit. Tech-wise it is accompanied side-by-side by the Mutalisk. That means the corrupter itself doesn't have to be versatile. It's free to be a reactive unit. And if Blizzard's air model is worth a damn, it'll see plenty of use. Especially if the Hydralisk stays at tier 2...

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Know what else is a tide turner? 10 +2 Hydralisks (Hydras have a 2 damage mod, so that's 16 per shot). Why would you even build Ultralisks in ZvZ? Roaches are more effective.

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Good point. Then again, the Ultralisk might be made stronger, or you might use it to turn the tide in a hydralisk battle. Hydralisks being hard to mass, that might become more important than is currently thought.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

Utterly pointless versatility. The corruption ability has nothing to do with what the corrupters supposed to DO.

The corrupter is an anti-air unit. Tech-wise it is accompanied side-by-side by the Mutalisk. That means the corrupter itself doesn't have to be versatile. It's free to be a reactive unit. And if Blizzard's air model is worth a damn, it'll see plenty of use. Especially if the Hydralisk stays at tier 2...

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I think Blizzard knows what the corruptor is supposed to do, they made the game. It could be a purely reactive unit, but that's exactly what the main criticism of it was earlier. More versatility for the Corruptor is not a bad thing, especially if you can shut down enemy buildings with it. There are few 1-trick ponies in SC 2 and that's how I think the game should be.

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I think Blizzard knows what the corruptor is supposed to do, they made the game.

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Then they should know the spellcasters and anti-air units are completely different things... corruption is the perfect spell on something like the Overseer or Infester IMO.

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It could be a purely reactive unit, but that's exactly what the main criticism of it was earlier.

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It's a completely baseless criticism as far as I'm concerned. Scourge and Corsair are some of the most used units in StarCraft 1. They serve pretty much NO other purpose, other than anti-air. As long as it's cheap, and is accompanied by a pro-active unit tech-wise (which the Corsair didn't even have... the Scout was worthless), there's nothing wrong with reactive ATA units.

Though, I suppose the Corrupter having Corruption is kinda like the Corsair having Disruption Web... or the Vulture having spider-mine... but eh. I just find Corruption on the Corrupter really awkward.

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I think the Infestor should be able to mind control casters as well (psionic creatures are currently immune to NP), to give it more versatility, but otherwise the Zerg caster lineup looks good enough. What function do you need filled? That's the main question. Giving a unit additional abilities because one feels like it is hardly good game design.

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What function needs filling is more like it. The Overseer should serve a purpose beyond being a detector if it's going to cost 100 gas. And the Infester should definitely be a worthwhile unit. Right now, like I said, it's lacking any sort of teeth. Siphon life is fun, but it's proven just a nice way for the Infester to get itself killed for me so far. And Fungal Growth's AoE is difficult to use and aim due to it's size. Especially against flying units. But that might just take some getting used to with the 3D engine. And then... Neural Parasite just doesn't really... work on anything significant that you'd want to control for 10 seconds.

So it's not the race that's flawed, it's just lacking in any cool or significant casters. And that *IS* a problem.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

Then they should know the spellcasters and anti-air units are completely different things... corruption is the perfect spell on something like the Overseer or Infester IMO.

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They needn't be. It's not like the other AA-s don't have abilities that make it more useful all round. Having a air unit that can poke into the enemy base, F up macro and be useful against enemy air is what the Mutalisk should have been all along. That it used to be a different unit isn't an explanation why it shouldn't be that way right now. Especially since that was way before beta!

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

It's a completely baseless criticism as far as I'm concerned. Scourge and Corsair are some of the most used units in StarCraft 1. They serve pretty much NO other purpose, other than anti-air. As long as it's cheap, and is accompanied by a pro-active unit tech-wise (which the Corsair didn't even have... the Scout was worthless), there's nothing wrong with reactive ATA units.

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You answer that quite well in your own next paragraph. :) Keep your mind open and explore the tactical possiblilities!

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

What function needs filling is more like it. The Overseer should serve a purpose beyond being a detector if it's going to cost 100 gas.

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It's a free scouting unit dispenser. That explains a bit of the cost, but 100 gas seems a bit too much, I'll give you that.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

And the Infester should definitely be a worthwhile unit. Right now, like I said, it's lacking any sort of teeth. Siphon life is fun, but it's proven just a nice way for the Infester to get itself killed for me so far. And Fungal Growth's AoE is difficult to use and aim due to it's size. Especially against flying units. But that might just take some getting used to with the 3D engine. And then... Neural Parasite just doesn't really... work on anything significant that you'd want to control for 10 seconds.

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I think that all makes it worthwhile, setting up ambushes and destroying the enemy like that is a perfectly awesome strategy, or it might just prevent them from getting to their base in time to kill off your own attack, especially if you use multiple Infestors. That's game-changing if I ever heard of it.
Siphon life might need a range boost if what you say is true, but that's as close to Consume I'd like it to get. Making everything immobile constantly does not make for fun games.
As for Neural Parasite, try it against Zerg some game. It may not be as useless as it seems.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

So it's not the race that's flawed, it's just lacking in any cool or significant casters. And that *IS* a problem.

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Wait at least a week before calling casters "uncool" or "insignificant". They do have a lot of unexplored potential, and I bet Jaedong could beat most of this Forum with just Zerglings, drones and infestors/overseers/corruptors without even straining himself.

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Originally Posted by LegacyofTerra

You answer that quite well in your own next paragraph. :) Keep your mind open and explore the tactical possiblilities!

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Meh... rather have a good anti-air unit. Than a mixed caster/anti-air unit that isn't that great at either. (Corruption is just blatantly imbalanced right now, can completely shut down any static defenses.)

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It's a free scouting unit dispenser. That explains a bit of the cost, but 100 gas seems a bit too much, I'll give you that.

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Uh, not really. Spawn Changeling isn't all THAT useful. I mean the observer can cloak, and it costs a fraction of that. (Though, granted, Overseers provide supply.)

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I think that all makes it worthwhile, setting up ambushes and destroying the enemy like that is a perfectly awesome strategy, or it might just prevent them from getting to their base in time to kill off your own attack, especially if you use multiple Infestors. That's game-changing if I ever heard of it.

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It sounds it. But I find the spell really difficult to use effectively. I'm gonna keep trying, though.

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As for Neural Parasite, try it against Zerg some game. It may not be as useless as it seems.

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Zerg vs. Zerg is exactly the same match-up it was in SC1. You get Mutalisks asap and whoever has more Mutalisks or has better Mutalisk micro wins. There's zero opportunity to go Infesters as far as I see right now.

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Wait at least a week before calling casters "uncool" or "insignificant".

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I am jumping the gun a bit, I admit that. I'm pretty sure Fungal Growth is an awesome ability. But Neural Parasite is really bleh, and siphon life is so tricky... but it'd be so ridiculously powerful with long range. They just kinda all work on the same targets... low-hp biological units. He needs some more spell variety.

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They do have a lot of unexplored potential, and I bet Jaedong could beat most of this Forum with just Zerglings, drones and infestors/overseers/corruptors without even straining himself.

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Probably... that... doesn't mean anything, though. I mean when Boxer ghost rushes people it's not like everybody goes "OH! WE WERE WRONG ABOUT GHOSTS ALL ALONG!!!"

Ghosts are difficult to use, but have still been effectively used by many. I'll never forget how FBH lockdowned a huge amount of carriers and in a later game, BC-s :D

,utas, really? dont corrupters beat them? arnt hydras quite cost effective vs mutas now? try armor upps on 'em, its great vs the glave-wurm bounce.

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Originally Posted by Todie

,utas, really? dont corrupters beat them? arnt hydras quite cost effective vs mutas now? try armor upps on 'em, its great vs the glave-wurm bounce.

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Corrupters are okay. I didn't have much luck with them... but he'd outproduced me with Mutas for the most part.

I think Corrupters might just be a little too slow.

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Zerg vs. Zerg is exactly the same match-up it was in SC1. You get Mutalisks asap and whoever has more Mutalisks or has better Mutalisk micro wins.

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Hydralisks own the hell out of Mutas. You need a mixed force of Muta and Roaches to be able to stop mass-Hydra, and sheer weight of numbers might still be against you.

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dont corrupters beat them?

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The only advantage Corruptors have over Mutalisks is that they have more Hp than Mutas. But that's it. And they still cost 50 more minerals.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Hydralisks own the hell out of Mutas. You need a mixed force of Muta and Roaches to be able to stop mass-Hydra, and sheer weight of numbers might still be against you.

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I haven't had much luck with Hydras in any capacity. I find them really awkward to get at tier 2. But then I find tier 2 is really awkward for me in general.

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The only advantage Corruptors have over Mutalisks is that they have more Hp than Mutas. But that's it. And they still cost 50 more minerals.

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What about range?

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I find them really awkward to get at tier 2.

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That's only because you're not used to it.

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What about range?

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They don't have the speed to exploit it. They get a first shoot off, but that's it.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

That's only because you're not used to it.

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Ah, maybe. I don't have a huge amount of SC experience to be honest. I played War3 a lot more seriously.

Still, the lack of Zerg tier 1 anti-air is a pain. Makes scouting a lot more important. And scouting makes me nervous. Hehe.

Well Things I would like them to get

Overseer...
Definitely Spore Cloud: LOS blocker AND have it cloak all units in the Cloud as well
Then either Acid Cloud or the Corruption ability from the Corrupter.


Infestor:
Neural Parasite needs to go one of two ways:
1. Cheap (make it cheaper/longer duration and prevent it from working on massive units)
2. Expensive (allow it to work on mechanical units and massive units..keep the "Psionic" limitation though)
you might need a special rule to prevent building with SCVs and Probes though.

Otherwise I like their abilites (Siphon life can be autocast I believe essentially making the Infester a weak attacker)
They just need some balancing. Perhaps make Siphon life castable while burrowed.

Corrupter:
Making Corrupted masses again... Definitely... maybe make it require energy...75 energy=implant spore (if unit dies it becomes a corrupted mass.) time ?20?.. can be auto cast? perhaps it slows unit movement as well

Not sure about the Building Corruption ability... that would probably be better on the overseer, and would need to be balanced.
As it is its like Disruption web but better since it hits friendly buildings too.


So
Infester: same but Tweak+balance

EITHER
Overseer: +Spore Cloud+Corruption/Acid cloud (keep changeling)
Corrupter: +Corrupted mass Ability (no energy)

OR
Overseer: +Spore Cloud (keep Changeling)
Corrupter: +Corrupted mass(needs energy) +Corruption

and then balance the abilities a bit

To balance the "Corrupted Mass" give it a long range ie 9 or 12 instead of just standard Turret range... or a long lifetime (so that its major benefit is area denial to ground+air)

The problem with Corruptors now is that they simply do not kill things fast enough. Putting that 150/100 into two Hydralisks (200/100) gives you far more stopping power. Yes, Corruptors fly, but when a quartet of Banshees comes into your base with a bad attitude, you need to kill them quickly. Corruptors currently operate on the idea that their large well of Hp will outlast the enemy.

That's fine when you're talking about Vikings, but Banshees are only interested in killing things quickly. And Void Rays love large wells of Hp; 3 of those guys can easily take on 4-5 Corruptors.

The Zerg are the only race now with a vulnerable macro mechanic. They should be able to stop threats like this quickly, or Queens need to be reworked. Corruptors, if they are going to be useful AtA fighters, must be more cost effective at stopping Banshees or Void Rays than Hydralisks.

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Definitely Spore Cloud: LOS blocker AND have it cloak all units in the Cloud as well

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I like Spore Cloud, but cloaking is overkill. Remember: Overseers are cheap.

I liked how every AtA unit in starcraft2 HAD influence on ground targets. Vikings could change mode to Walkers, Phoenixes have gravity beam, so they can pick up important targets, and Corruptors had Corrupted mass, which was my favorite from all 3. You actually punished players even more for going combination of Ground and Air, since when you kill air, you keep attacking ground with Corruptors...

Now I would like to see old Corruptors back and Overseers getting or Acid Spore/Corruption/Spore Cloud... As Krik said...

And Legacy, you quoted me on some things, mind controlling ultras is good, but as Nicol said, why would you even bother?

And about Hydras being strong, yes it is good, but as I said, it isn't bad, it is imbalanced. Yes they cost a lot, but why would I even bother to teaching to Tier 3? When I got Hydras that cost like Marauders but are more general units. I need just to mass them and making Nydus Worms all over the map...

There is really really no point in teaching to Brood Lords and Ultras and with this state of Spell Casters there is no point in making anything than Infestors occasionally... So people will end the game with just massing Lings and Hydras, with sometimes adding the Roaches and Banelings to the army(if needed...).

That is my point, they should be rebalanced so all has it use. And I hope Beta will show and do that!

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Yes they cost a lot, but why would I even bother to teaching to Tier 3? When I got Hydras that cost like Marauders but are more general units. I need just to mass them and making Nydus Worms all over the map...

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If my opponent had spent the money for those Ultralisks on Tier 3 Roaches (with the Roach upgrades), I would have been utterly murdered. One on one, Roaches are more powerful, and they cost half of Hydralisks. Or you could go for mass Cracklings, which is even more devastating. Either way. Tier 3 offers much to a Zerg player.

Hell, Fungal Growth + Banelings alone would have ended my little Hydralisk army. But he went for the big, flashy thing like so many SC players, rather than the less sexy-but-effective counter.

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There is really really no point in teaching to Brood Lords and Ultras and with this state of Spell Casters there is no point in making anything than Infestors occasionally... So people will end the game with just massing Lings and Hydras, with sometimes adding the Roaches and Banelings to the army(if needed...).

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In ZvZ you're right that Brood Lords and Ultralisks don't have much use. But they do have use in other matches. Well, BLs do. I still don't know what Ultralisks are for.

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I liked how every AtA unit in starcraft2 HAD influence on ground targets.

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I personally don't like that at all... but eh.

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And about Hydras being strong, yes it is good, but as I said, it isn't bad, it is imbalanced.

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Because Hydralisks are REALLY vulnerable. Hellions, Marine + Medivac, Colossi + Psi Storm. They cost about 1.5x as much and still have the same HP. They may be more offensively powerful, but defensively they're more vulnerable than ever.

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with this state of Spell Casters there is no point in making anything than Infestors occasionally

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Infestors are pretty worthwhile. They combine well with Hydralisks actually.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

I personally don't like that at all... but eh.




Because Hydralisks are REALLY vulnerable. Hellions, Marine + Medivac, Colossi + Psi Storm. They cost about 1.5x as much and still have the same HP. They may be more offensively powerful, but defensively they're more vulnerable than ever.
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Which is why a good change for Them might be to make their Range upgrade +2 instead of +1

(since that would let them get equal/greater range than most units except Siege units)


And I do like that the AtA all have some ground effect, just weaker than their air effect.
Corrupted mass was the best.

Wort,

I was thinking about this just the other day...how coincidental.

From my observations, I've come to find that the Zerg, both in SC1 and SC2, are perhaps the most mobile side in the game, with all of their units being considerably fast and able to rapidly strike and retreat...or to simply swarm so quickly and so suddenly that by the time reinforcements arrive there's nothing left...

With this in mind, I think that Zerg "caster" units should have abilities to support these traits.

Firstly, the Corrupter. From what I've seen its potent, but perhaps just a wee bit weak in its AtA, as has been stated here. I haven't seen the "Corruption" ability in action, but it sounds powerful; I daresay it should only deactivate a refinery/factory for about 10/15 seconds, but the effect should stack so that additional Corrupters should be able to extend its "out" period...of course, the maximum should be probably 60 seconds, to avoid "ovrpwrd.exe" [aka Win button; :P].

However, at the same time, this ability might be better in a different role; perhaps it should temporarily deactivate missile turrets/radar towers/force troops in bunkers to exit...in that case, 10 seconds would suit it I think.

With regards to the Infester, Neural Parasite should be expanded to cover Psionic units [except Archons] for sure. Lore-wise, one needs only look at Raszagul as a reference. They should be free to be used on almost all Zerg units, if not all period [what of neural parasitized Overlords?], as well as Zealots, Marines, Marauders, Ghosts, High Templar, Dark Templar, and maybe Stalkers and Immortals [I question the possibility of the last two on basis of their exoskeletons and cybernetic machinations not being so "neural"]...

Siphon Life is fine...perhaps they also, for a wee bit more "bite", should gain some sort of "Corrosive Acid"-style ability like the Devourer had in BW, but only as a low-cost special ability. Maybe with a little splash, though not as big as the Devourer had. Dunno about damage. If it is actually damaging, it should be more expensive energy-wise for sure.

I think the Overseer Spore Cloud should not only obstruct vision but also act as a light cover bonus, like you get when on superior elevation to those shooting at you [70% chance to hit]. In that case it would act as a sort of deluted Dark Swarm however...

Short on time atm, so I'll end my post here...comments? Ideas?

T.M.E.

Remember when the Corruptor was supposed to corrupt ennemies and change them into "towers" when they died?

The Infestor should have that ability, as an AoE spell; all affected units, if they die within X secondes, spawn broodlings or a stationary spore/suken colony.

This idea is seriously perfect.

After today's games, I'm going to have to re-think my concepts with regard to the Corruptor. They do seem legitimately capable against air units, though not necessarily cost-for-cost. However, I'm starting to think that Corruption may not be that bad of a mechanic after all.

Knocking out defensive buildings would be a great boon for dealing with base defenses. A couple of Corruptors to take out key Missile turrets or Photon Cannons could let a cluster of Mutalisks make someone's day very unpleasant.

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If my opponent had spent the money for those Ultralisks on Tier 3 Roaches (with the Roach upgrades), I would have been utterly murdered. One on one, Roaches are more powerful, and they cost half of Hydralisks. Or you could go for mass Cracklings, which is even more devastating. Either way. Tier 3 offers much to a Zerg player.

Hell, Fungal Growth + Banelings alone would have ended my little Hydralisk army. But he went for the big, flashy thing like so many SC players, rather than the less sexy-but-effective counter.

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Yeah, I am all for mass Tier 1 - 2 units than for "ZOMG ULTRAZZZ"...

Btw about Cracklings, with Tier 3, Hydras got 12 + 6 damage which is huge and they actually 2 shot Zerglings, would you think that at Tier 3 mass Cracklings would beat mass Hydras? I didn't played the game, but with all those numbers I am not convinced at all.

Also I do agree that he has many ways of beating you in ZvZ, but still this is beta, there are so much imbalanced stuf around, and I find overall looking, Zerg being really imbalanced(not imbalanced like Strong, but like they need a fix).

Meh, I still don't like Corruption ability on Corruptors... But that is my opinion.

Also Nicol in your Blog, you mentioned Roaches with speed upgrade many times. Did you try their regen upgrade at Tier 3 or did you tried Burrowed movement for them as assault units? I think they would be even worse than Reapers with Burrowed Movement, since you can see Reapers on the map, and if you don't expect Roaches, especially with Burrow, they are gonna make your life miserable!

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Because Hydralisks are REALLY vulnerable. Hellions, Marine + Medivac, Colossi + Psi Storm. They cost about 1.5x as much and still have the same HP. They may be more offensively powerful, but defensively they're more vulnerable than ever.

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Really? From all those counters you listed, I can see only Colossi + Psi Storm working. Hydras takes 4 shots to kill an Marine, and 5 to kill an Hellion, and since they have longer Range than Hellions and Hellions need good positioning, I don't think both of those are counters. I can also Kill Medivac in few shots. Yes, I see that they are "vulnerable", but they aren't more Vulnerable than they were in SC1 and they are now a lot stronger, but I guess it is the price for having them at Lair Tier after all.

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Originally Posted by B~E

The Infestor should have that ability, as an AoE spell; all affected units, if they die within X secondes, spawn broodlings or a stationary spore/suken colony.

This idea is seriously perfect.

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nice ability. but on the corruptor? not sure.

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Originally Posted by Krikkitone

Overseer: +Spore Cloud (keep Changeling)
Corrupter: +Corrupted mass(needs energy) +Corruption

and then balance the abilities a bit

To balance the "Corrupted Mass" give it a long range ie 9 or 12 instead of just standard Turret range... or a long lifetime (so that its major benefit is area denial to ground+air)

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energy or cooldown based, i like this. the problem i had with corrupted mass was always that it seemed to random for the thing to trigger only if corrupters were the ones to finish it off. an activated ability that triggers it no matter who actually kills it makes this all better.

its a really interesting & nifty concept to have an ability that makes enemies into turrets. its a new kind of territory denial. something that might be welcome with lurker gone (good riddance)

however, as Nicol says, corrupter might be fine, with some tweaking.

i have barely even seen it in action, but im guessing the corruption duration is unnecesarily long and that it could use a slight boost in general damage. (not too much: it aught to retain its speciality vs massive?)

spore cloud would be cool. but no cloaking. i'd suggest a small radius and low cost & that teh enemy litteraly cant ee through it - its like terrain, extended to even air units (?) so you need to have a spotter on the otehr side to see! that makes it problematic with the units inside the aoe though, how do you even see and target them? you cant be expected to fly an observer right in tehre just to see them?.... a non circular target area would be best for this, but im not sure how that would actually work. what with angles etc.

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Originally Posted by RamiZ

Btw about Cracklings, with Tier 3, Hydras got 12 + 6 damage which is huge and they actually 2 shot Zerglings, would you think that at Tier 3 mass Cracklings would beat mass Hydras? I didn't played the game, but with all those numbers I am not convinced at all.

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hydras get one per upgrade and that gets cancelled out by ling armor upgrades so its 3 shots. but it makes sense to either lead with ultras/roaches or to support with brood lords if your massing ling vs hydra (no i dont have beta either so im not SURE)

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From all those counters you listed, I can see only Colossi + Psi Storm working. Hydras takes 4 shots to kill an Marine, and 5 to kill an Hellion, and since they have longer Range than Hellions and Hellions need good positioning, I don't think both of those are counters. I can also Kill Medivac in few shots. Yes, I see that they are "vulnerable", but they aren't more Vulnerable than they were in SC1 and they are now a lot stronger, but I guess it is the price for having them at Lair Tier after all.

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powerful but fragile, thats the hydra for a. very suitable if you ask me. remember, they might not be more fragile than in sc1 but compared to COST they certainly are!

healed infantry with even minor artillery support is most likely a nut thats at least as hard to crack for hydras in sc2 as it was in sc1.. medevacs has some range, so tehy can be kept in teh back healing. marauders slow the hydras down, making it quite hard to reach back to the ST's or med's if your not flanking to begin with.

as a hydra counter, helions are harder to judge. its probably quite situational and i bet they too do well with support from ST's ... different types of splash is goodie.. also, ravens should be good. especially, they would make it even easier for terrans to hold chokes, with auto turrets and point-defenses.

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hydras get one per upgrade and that gets cancelled out by ling armor upgrades so its 3 shots. but it makes sense to either lead with ultras/roaches or to support with brood lords if your massing ling vs hydra (no i dont have beta either so im not SURE)

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So don't speak then :P :P :P Nicol clearly said Hydras got +2 damage modifier per upgrade and that he raped Ultralisks with Hydras, better for that cost making Roaches only!

And I am asking for Nicol to test it, I still think that after I saw few games, Hydras are imbalanced for 100/50. And yeah, Roach answer please asap! :D

And Nicol, I just have seen that Ultras still have AoE attack, remind me why they suck again? Maybe player you were facing wasn't good in positioning, but I just watched how Zerg destroyed Protoss with just massing Ultras vs Toss making Zealots, Colossi, Stalkers, Archons, HTs and Immortals... and yeah they were fighting in Protoss base with 10+ cannons...

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

After today's games, I'm going to have to re-think my concepts with regard to the Corruptor. They do seem legitimately capable against air units, though not necessarily cost-for-cost. However, I'm starting to think that Corruption may not be that bad of a mechanic after all.

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Oh, there's no doubt that it's a good spell. I just don't know if it's a good spell for the Corruptor.

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Nicol clearly said Hydras got +2 damage modifier per upgrade

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I got that wrong; it's only +1. They still own Ultralisks.

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Oh, there's no doubt that it's a good spell. I just don't know if it's a good spell for the Corruptor.

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Here's the thing. Any Corruptor is a potential Brood Lord. What it does in the meantime (kill air units, help Mutalisks harass, etc) is something of a bonus on top of that.

IMO Corruption should be its default ground attack with long cooldown, instead of a spell. If you attack a structure, it automatically corrupts it so it stays more in line with the Zerg style passive abilities.

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Originally Posted by flabortast

IMO Corruption should be its default ground attack with long cooldown, instead of a spell. If you attack a structure, it automatically corrupts it so it stays more in line with the Zerg style passive abilities.

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Actually, an energy ability is probably better for control reasons...
If the cooldown is very slow, then you have to seriosly micro your corrupters to "use the cooldown ability" as opposed to smartcasting it (where if I 'attack' a building only one corrupter will attack because the damage is negligible.)

I think a Corrupter with the dual energy abilities
Corrupt building (building deactivates for X time)
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Corrupt Air unit (unit turns into 'turret' if killed during Y seconds... possibly even unit takes dps or is slowed)..autocastable (say 25 energy ~20-30 sec)

Would be a way to do it. (possibly also give the 'turret' that ability on autocast)



As for Spore cloud... an air LOS blocker would be just about as much of a hindrance to the Zerg as a help.

On the other hand if Spore Cloud acted Both as a LOS blocker (which air units cancel out) AND as a cloak for units within it (which detectors cancel out)... that means the way to counter it would be with a flying detector... like the Overseer (so the presence of an Overseer would eliminate the disadvantage of being in the cloud or having enemies in the cloud.

This would give the Zerg
2 lesser air casters: each with 2 abilities

Balancing with the Protoss/Terran
1 major air caster: MS/Raven (3 abilities) and other units with 1 "supporting" ability

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As for Spore cloud... an air LOS blocker would be just about as much of a hindrance to the Zerg as a help.

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No it wouldn't. The existing LoS blockers help Zerg more than hurt them already, I think. Sure if you mess it up it could hurt you more than help you, but the same is true of Force Field.

Personally I think there were likely technical issues or exploits with the ability that needed fixing.

Know what'd be fun actually? If they gave the Infestors' Siphon Life ability to the Corruptor. Had it like grab an air unit in it's tentacles, preventing it from moving or attack and dealing damage over time, while healing the corruptor. Having it cast at melee range. I actually kinda love that idea.

Then have the Infestor be Fungal Growth/Neural Parasite/Infest.

Actually, I think the "Unit Corruption" ability could work like that.
Melee range, immobilizes unit (have it still attack) If it dies with a Corrupter attached then it becomes a turret.