Things that may have been overlooked.

I'd like to see a collection of little things you've noticed that haven't gotten much discussion time.

For example, Creep tumors. Wonderful little things; they make creep that makes your units faster, and allows your crawlers to move further.

But did you know that a Creep tumor could build another Creep tumor? Each one can only do it once, and only after about a 7 second delay from when they were first produced. I haven't investigated the range of this ability, but they can only make another tumor on creep. When a Creep tumor has extended a creep bud, it closes its eyes to show that it has expended itself.

This means that a little Queen energy goes a long way. Connecting your primary to your natural with creep:

1: Doesn't cost you loads of Queen energy.

2: Doesn't require Lair tech.

That last part is crucial, as doing this kind of thing can be absolutely critical in holding off early-mid pushes with Crawlers. It also helps your Queen get where you want, as well as make defending with fast Zerglings or Roaches easier.

So, anyone else have any similar insights into something that others might have missed?

Also, I was compiling stats for units yesterday, when I noticed something odd.

The Queen is listed as "Psionic, Biological". Notice anything missing? That's right: she is neither Light nor Armored. That means most damage bonuses never apply to her.

As if we needed less competition with spawn larva :rolleyes:

Interesting. I thinked that was removed a long time ago.

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The Queen is listed as "Psionic, Biological". Notice anything missing? That's right: she is neither Light nor Armored. That means most damage bonuses never apply to her.

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She's still unbelievably vulnerable, though that is very cool.

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As if we needed less competition with spawn larva

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Spawn larvae doesn't really need competition... the only legitimate competition for spawn larvae is transfusion. Which is hard to use anyway. Sorta think they should make it auto-cast... but eh...

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

She's still unbelievably vulnerable, though that is very cool.



Spawn larvae doesn't really need competition... the only legitimate competition for spawn larvae is transfusion. Which is hard to use anyway. Sorta think they should make it auto-cast... but eh...

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She's less vulnerable when you have air against her, but yeah she's very very fragile.

I don't know...extended creep, how often are you really going to want that? Or, more accurately, how often are you going to want that more than extra larvae? I just think the ability needs to either A) be changed or B) have some amazing new cool thing discovered about it.

Maybe the Queen can nest on the Hatchery so it doubles the larva spawn rate but the Queen can't do anything while nesting.

IMO

Queen Nesting = larva spawn rate increase
MULE Build Assist = increase construction speeds
Chrono Boost = direct unit construction/upgrade/research speed increase

structures build times suffer no benefit from Crono Boost

hes ssuggestiong something not saying how it is now

Imao you really want to have a zealot rush before minute 2:30? Yea but I get your point... ^^

What made you think I was implying construction time boost? I specifically said unit construction, research and upgrades.

hmmh i guess i was tired and draw conclusions since you were implying suggestions about the otehr races mechanics.

I have to say that as a P player - I love Chrono Boost. LOVE it.

~LoA

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

Spawn larvae doesn't really need competition...

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Um ya it does. Unless we want to get into the old "making units from extra larva is decision making but making units from extra minerals isnt" debate again.


*gets out macro boxing gloves*

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Originally Posted by SaharaDrac

I don't know...extended creep, how often are you really going to want that? Or, more accurately, how often are you going to want that more than extra larvae?

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When you have enough larvae. That's the thing. You want as many minerals as possible, at the same time, there are only so many larvae you could want.

And spawn larvae is cheap enough and takes long enough that you can cast creep tumour in-between spawning larvae. Even at tier 1. Plus the use of being able to move your Queens from one base to the other is GREAT, and you usually only need two creep tumours.

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Um ya it does. Unless we want to get into the old "making units from extra larva is decision making but making units from extra minerals isnt" debate again.

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Got nothing to do with that. Spawn larvae has a low enough energy cost that you can cast both it and creep tumour. And if you want one for Transfusion you can build another Queen. The only real concern is that she costs a lot of supply.

But I suppose you're talking about how 'mindless' spawn larvae is otherwise. But it's just... not. The Queen has so many other roles and things to do. She's an early game base-defender, she can spread the creep, she heals buildings and units... she's very versatile.

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Maybe the Queen can nest on the Hatchery so it doubles the larva spawn rate but the Queen can't do anything while nesting.

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Ick, no, that'd be terrible... she's awesome right now. IMO.

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She's less vulnerable when you have air against her, but yeah she's very very fragile.

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True. She's actually not bad against Mutalisks... the problem is you don't build a lot of Queens, so she can get outnumbered and swarmed really easily before you can even react. But I have kinda slow reaction times, so eh, might just be me I admit.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

But I suppose you're talking about how 'mindless' spawn larvae is otherwise. But it's just... not. The Queen has so many other roles and things to do. She's an early game base-defender, she can spread the creep, she heals buildings and units... she's very versatile.

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But were talking about the ability itself.

I HATE these APM sink macro mechanics. Feeling forced to use them every X seconds is the single worst thing they've added to the game. Having to remember to cast Chrono Boost is driving me nuts.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

I HATE these APM sink macro mechanics. Feeling forced to use them every X seconds is the single worst thing they've added to the game. Having to remember to cast Chrono Boost is driving me nuts.

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My love for the new mechanics just tripled :D




By the way, while I still have reservations about chronoboost, I will definatly admit that it is incredibly fun!

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

My love for the new mechanics just tripled :D




By the way, while I still have reservations about chronoboost, I will definatly admit that it is incredibly fun!

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Fuck no its not. If I miss it once, I lose. Its bullshit. Especially against Terran who have leeway with MULES. It makes me want to punch you even more than usual.

I was surprised to hear about the tumors ability to propagate the creep (DSquid first showed me on his stream). That means that after the initial placement with 25 energy, a Zerg player could very well extend their creep indefinitely with very minimal effort.

Given that, I see no reason why they shouldn't blanket their entire surrounding base with the fluid since presumably it still prevents non-Zerg structures from being built on it, as well as augments their ground unit speed. It'll reduce the threat of cannon pushes. The notion behind this is exciting, but I can't see how it'll last in its current state. Only reason not to do this is in team games where you could be interfering with building placement.

When an expansion is created, it's a no brainer for Zerg players to connect them with creep to speed passage between.

Questions:
1) Are Terran/Protoss buildings still unable to be produced on creep?
2) Can a Terran building land on creep?

What is the range on making a new creep tumor? It would be cool if it could be used at any range as long as it was connected by creep.

People don't understand how good creep tumor is. If a terran player is going bio, a player could make a quarter of the map filled with creep. If he comes to attack, the zerg player could simply attack with banelings. The terran player doesn't even have time to react. A zerg in the platinum league used this strat and it absolutely raped.

Creep makes retreating impossible.

With 4 creep tumors, a player can cover the entire map in creep if they had good apm. Building an extra queen for those tumors isn't a massive sacrifice.

Creep tumors all over the map gives unprecedented vision of the map. Nothing would be hidden. Puttting creep tumors of every expansion would allow you to wipe out expansions as soon as they try to put one up.


I'm sure I am only skimming the surface of the strategies creep tumors allow.



EDIT: To Blazur above me, I have seen a few streams where a nydus worm made creep in a terran base. He couldn't land buildings or make them in the area the nydus worm came out.

I'm debating with myself if creep rush into an enemy base would ever work... protoss can't get detection for a while.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

If I miss it once, I lose. Its bullshit.

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There is absolutly no way this statement is true.

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Originally Posted by Kraziliak

I'm debating with myself if creep rush into an enemy base would ever work... protoss can't get detection for a while.

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There's certainly value in it. If you punch a worm through an enemies base, giving it the opportunity to exude creep around it...you may as well pass your queen along with any other units. From there you can quickly drop a tumor and retreat to your base, securing that patch of creep until the player gets detection. Last I heard tumors are invisible to players.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

But were talking about the ability itself.

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And why would we do that? The Queen is what's important.

New overlooked thing:

Units that have damage bonuses add their damage modifier into their bonus damage for +1 upgrades.

So the humble Reaper gets 5 +6 vs. Light x2 damage. With +1 this becomes 6 +7 vs. Light x2. They effectively get +4 against their preferred target from one upgrade.

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When an expansion is created, it's a no brainer for Zerg players to connect them with creep to speed passage between.

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It does take time. And if you don't have much APM to begin with, spending it on leap-frogging creep isn't the most important thing you could be doing.

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What is the range on making a new creep tumor? It would be cool if it could be used at any range as long as it was connected by creep.

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I'm not sure to be honest. I'll check when I get home.

I know it's not "arbitrary location", because I tried and failed to reach a patch of isolated creep made by my Overlord.

Could you check the armor upgrades, i'm just wondering if it increases by 1 for every unit or 2 for some? All units now start with either 1 or 2 basic armor, which made me wonder ;)

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All units now start with either 1 or 2 basic armor

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No, they do not. Certainly not if you're Zerg.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

New overlooked thing:

Units that have damage bonuses add their damage modifier into their bonus damage for +1 upgrades.

So the humble Reaper gets 5 +6 vs. Light x2 damage. With +1 this becomes 6 +7 vs. Light x2. They effectively get +4 against their preferred target from one upgrade.

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Wow, no wonder units seem to just melt away in SC2 - weapon upgrades shoot damage through the roof.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

No, they do not. Certainly not if you're Zerg.

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Uh i meant with either 1 or 2 or none:o
But not with 3 like some units in sc1.

The thing to do to make Spawn Larva compete with Creep

1. Stop this "Creep Tumors" From Creep Tumors...make ALL Creep tumors have to come from the Queen

2. Make Creep tumors Cheap... say 3-7 energy per creep tumor (possibly make them neutral as well, or at least reduce their sight)

3. Limit the Creep from Hatcheries/Lairs/Hives (give them a shorter range just slightly more than needed for a Spawning pool ie 3-5), and to some degree from Overlords as well (slightly bigger but not pylon-sized)

4. Allow 'Inactive' Creep tumors to be placed off the Creep... when they get covered by creep they become Active. (so the Queen can 'prebuild' that Creep bridge, and have it slowly get filled in)


There is the Bigger problem of how to solve the fact that you can just make more Queens.

Best one I can think of.... Give the Queen a version of Drain Life... but she can only use it on friendly buildings...but she can use it on Multiple friendly buildings at once.

Then eliminate the Queen's natural energy regeneration.

This way the Zerg player has to build more buildings if they want to have more energy for Transfusion/Spawn Larva/Creep Tumors.

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Wow, no wonder units seem to just melt away in SC2 - weapon upgrades shoot damage through the roof.

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Except for the Zerg, of course, since most of their units:

1: Don't have a damage mod > 1.

2: Don't have multiple attacks.

3: Don't have damage bonuses.

Honestly, I don't see what the point of the ranged attack upgrade is. Roaches and Hydras benefit from it, but the difference between 16 and 17 damage isn't even 10%. Whereas Zerglings get a 20% boost. Banelings have a damage mod of 2, so they get +4 vs. their primary targets.

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The Queen is listed as "Psionic, Biological". Notice anything missing? That's right: she is neither Light nor Armored. That means most damage bonuses never apply to her.

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The ghost too.

I've spread creep across the entire map before or at least half....it makes hydras very sexy units!

I'm not in Beta so I don't know how common this is but I have seen people use phoenix to lift queens and snipe them. Very cool.


Also, I would like to see a grudge match between Archer and Dsquid! Whoever wins the bo5 wins the giant macro thread. :D

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Also, I would like to see a grudge match between Archer and Dsquid! Whoever wins the bo5 wins the giant macro thread.

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That wouldn't even be fair. Archer loves macro and would quite obviously enjoy the repetition of it, which would give him a massive advantage because if you don't macro you'll lose.

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Originally Posted by Krikkitone

The thing to do to make Spawn Larva compete with Creep

1. Stop this "Creep Tumors" From Creep Tumors...make ALL Creep tumors have to come from the Queen
2. Make Creep tumors Cheap... say 3-7 energy per creep tumor (possibly make them neutral as well, or at least reduce their sight)

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me no like. havnt played to know but ppl seem to think its rather cool as it is, there are other better ways to provide more tension for queen use ( see below)

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3. Limit the Creep from Hatcheries/Lairs/Hives (give them a shorter range just slightly more than needed for a Spawning pool ie 3-5), and to some degree from Overlords as well (slightly bigger but not pylon-sized)

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wouldnt this kinda be to make the creep-spreading a no-brainer apm sink?

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4. Allow 'Inactive' Creep tumors to be placed off the Creep... when they get covered by creep they become Active. (so the Queen can 'prebuild' that Creep bridge, and have it slowly get filled in)

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this, i like. they should have reduced vision before they get nourished by creep though.

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There is the Bigger problem of how to solve the fact that you can just make more Queens.

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one per hachery. if it becomes a problem i think increased supply cost would "fix it" nicely.

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Best one I can think of.... Give the Queen a version of Drain Life... but she can only use it on friendly buildings...but she can use it on Multiple friendly buildings at once.

Then eliminate the Queen's natural energy regeneration.

This way the Zerg player has to build more buildings if they want to have more energy for Transfusion/Spawn Larva/Creep Tumors.

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she eats the buildings for energy? no thx.


my suggestion: (first posted in the macro thread earlier today)

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Originally Posted by Todie

spawn larva also kind of looks like an apm sink, even though its your choice what you use the extra larva for, there's no reason not to get the larva.

so how about an ability to increase a units vision for a couple of minutes? i can think of a few variations of this:

increase affected units vision only when it stands still or lays still - burrowed (like old overseer ability)

and / or :

gradually increase the units vision for the next 1-2 minutes, and then gradually decrease it (back to normal) again. (could work with the one above : gradual increases, but only while standing still)

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Edit: one more unrelated thing:

Spawn Larva, it doesnt have a cooldown, correct? so you can include this in a queue of orders?

this shoudld mean that you can, in theory, spawn larva on your hach, then make a move queue back and forth in base that takes almost 40 sec, then queue the queen to cast it again on the hachery! similar if you have several hacheries.

.. it should work similar to how you can tell an scv to build a new one (or to do wahtever really) after hes done building...

the only thing i can see standing in the way of this working is the queens energy pool.. but with one queen per hach im sure you can make it happen. somoene confirm it works? discuss!

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

That wouldn't even be fair. Archer loves macro and would quite obviously enjoy the repetition of it, which would give him a massive advantage because if you don't macro you'll lose.

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Not to mention that you can know the game very well, and be able to judge what is fun or not for at least a part of the gaming population without being good at execution.

There are probably people out there that don't minds to do repetitive tasks that involve no decisions, so both of them could be right for some % of the gaming population.

I think that if some meaningful amount of the people playing the game would hate to use the macro mechanics, they should be optional. A macro player and a micro player should be tied if both have the same skill in their area of expertise. Otherwise, the game is biased towards a playing style. BW was very macro biased. Reducing that bias could lead to richer gameplay.

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Spawn Larva, it doesnt have a cooldown, correct? so you can include this in a queue of orders?

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The ability itself doesn't. But the Hatchery can only have it cast on itself every 45 seconds or so.

Spawn Larvae certainly doesn't feel like an APM sink to me by any means. There are just too many other things your Queen can do in the interim, while it's casting. And buying multiple queens isn't really worth it because her abilities are so cheap. Generally speaking, it'll depend on what your opponent is doing.

Plus while you always WANT more Larvae you don't always NEED more Larvae. Especially in the late-game where you'll have lots of Hatcheries, you won't need to cast Spawn Larvae as often.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

The ability itself doesn't. But the Hatchery can only have it cast on itself every 45 seconds or so.

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hence you should be able to do what i said:

presume you have a queen with 100 energy. Using cued move commands in between, you should be able to build an order queue that effectively executes spawn larva just a often as is "required" ... if you do this you can focus on micro completely for that period of time, and not feel like your missing out on macro too much (since you can still make units without even glancing at your base)


.... just sayin'

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Spawn Larvae certainly doesn't feel like an APM sink to me by any means. There are just too many other things your Queen can do in the interim, while it's casting. And buying multiple queens isn't really worth it because her abilities are so cheap. Generally speaking, it'll depend on what your opponent is doing.

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"many other things" ? you can make some tumors, thats it. unless shes needed for defence.

tell me then. in what situation other when at times you are under attack is it rational to NOT spawn larva at your hatchery? (once the timer from the last one runs out).. you know, one could argue that if you have so many hatcheries that "you dont need to" you have wasted too much money on hatcheries.

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

That wouldn't even be fair. Archer loves macro and would quite obviously enjoy the repetition of it, which would give him a massive advantage because if you don't macro you'll lose.

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I'd love to see that as well. Perhaps SCL could arrange it and upload the vids to YouTube?

My money is on Archer.