Three-Gate Zealot

The first seemingly broken build. I played 5 games vs. Protoss, and 3 of them involved me losing to this build (as the Zerg). (FYI: one of the others was against some guy who didn't know what he was doing, and the other was against a guy who contained me with cannons because I wasn't paying attention and exhausted me).

I'm far from convinced that it is invincible, but it is very tough. 4-pool back when Spawning Pools cost only 150 minerals tough.

One of the problems I ran into was even finding out if it was happening. Granted, I didn't Drone-scout, but that may be the only way to know what's up.

The other problem is the counter. Roaches and Banelings, either of which can probably do a good job, cost a sizable quantity of gas.

There was this one game where I almost beat the guy who went for this. It was on Lost Temple. I went for a super, super fast gas. Extractor before Overlord, fast. But I only put two Drones on. That gave me enough surplus gas by the time the Baneling Nest came out that I could do something. You also get early speed for the Zerglings.

I fought off his early attack (Spawn Larva was utterly vital to keeping up with his output). He tried to set up some Proxy Pylon BS, but I shut that down quickly enough. The problem was that I moved out with my SpeedLings and morphed Banelings a little outside of his base. I did it in a spot he wasn't watching, so he didn't catch me with half my army down. The problem was that, while my Banelings were Morphing, he sent way too many Zealots around in a direction I wasn't watching. My army just couldn't get back in time.

Looking back on it, I almost certainly should have used my advantage to expand, with Zerglings and Banelings keeping those damn Zealots out. Alternatively, I could have gone for Roaches; those might have worked better defensively.

I can tell you this much: don't fast expand against Protoss unless you're sure he's not going 3-Gate Zealot.

What's your thoughts on Chrono Boost? Do you think it plays a large part in this build?

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What's your thoughts on Chrono Boost? Do you think it plays a large part in this build?

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No question. There's no way the Protoss could get the money for that many Zealots without some kind of aid.

I was quite surprised that you could use right off the bat. Couldn't they lay it off until CyberCore?

Hell, I was surprised it didn't cost money. As a Zerg, I have to pay 150 minerals and wait till a Pool finishes just to get access to a Queen.

Protoss? Wait 25 seconds.

The ability itself is good; it's just way, way to early for that kind of thing. Not unless they increase the production time of Probes to compensate.

I remember coming across a bunch of zealot rushes, not sure if they were 3gate.


Perhaps we can test this out tomorrow

But I've always been able to do fine with roach/ling -- but im not the type to take a fast expand.


Though now that I think about I have won alot of games with just zealots -- I think chrono is going to ended up coming after gateway or somthing

Ive gone two gate chrono boost zealot rush 3 or 4 times today. Won every time, not even close.

Chrono-boost just seems so nutty right now.

I think I need to rethink my PvZ right now. I've been trying out an 11 hatch -11 pool, dual-queen economic build and fast zealots seems to beat me every time.

I'm not a great player by any means and I'm pretty sure both PvZ games I've played so far involved me battling superior players, but when the guy has as many Stalkers as I do Zerglings in the middle of the game... yeah, jeez.

drone scouting sounds wise, but it sucks to be forced to slow down your early econ-accel. just to be able to tell if the enemy is using his initially superior econ-accel. to rush you! but you gotta do what you gotta do...

what are your defensive options? spine crawlers are still made by queen? my sc/bw-based intuition tells me to go for spine crawlers and try to cover them from melee with other buildings as far as possible. (-> letting them engage buildings befre attacking with 'ling /drone) ... Im guessing thats hard to do if it works at all. but crawlers are more fragile than sunks were, correct?

obvious as this may be, to try to keep up / catch up / get ahead in econ you obviously need to keep at it with drone production, so (if you scout a strong-econ-zeal rush) try to see the zeals comming and stay off making zerglings preemtively unless you want to try to harass with them.. just hatch the lings "with perfect timing" as you need them.


... i love this sort of stuff. Question is if i really have any sort of clue, and if ill be able to keep up with changes.

What build are you guys using for this? Ive got some time later today to try it out.

Is this 3 gate protoss beating Terran as well?

Maybe the spine crawlers aren't strong enough. Why not do what they do in BW and just build 5-6 spine crawlers... or is that only viable vs terran?

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Originally Posted by REF

Is this 3 gate protoss beating Terran as well?

Maybe the spine crawlers aren't strong enough. Why not do what they do in BW and just build 5-6 spine crawlers... or is that only viable vs terran?

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I can't even GET to Spine Crawlers generally. That's probably my build order, though. But anyway, Spine Crawlers suck against zealots regardless. The best thing is probably a fast Roach or Baneling build. So fast spawning pool, early gas... but then you're kinda screwing yourself over economically.

Yeah, that Chrono Boost sounds too early and free. I expect them to fix that soon, if it's that obvious.

goddamit I wish I play to get a better understanding...

So basically the 3 gate, they load up 5-6 zeals, rush ur base and constantly reinforce? Or is it more of an all in 20+ zeals?

If it's a 20+ zeals, 'should' have enough time to get your nat up and build at least a small handful of crawlers + lings. Now if you're getting attacked from the get go, yeah this Chrono Boost deal should only available after cyber core.

Terran : Mule -> ebay -> orbital command @ cc
Zerg : Queen -> Spawn pool -> morph @ hatch
Protoss: Chrono Boost on the get go??????

Ya, imba just on the freakin build order!

Did you try with mass Lings? Since, basically, that is how they were defending vs Zealot rush as Zerg, mass lings and put 2-3 Sunkens. I am not saying that it is viable here too, just that you can try it. It seems tough but not unbeatable.

I agree. Playing as Protoss, chrono boost makes everything too easy at this point. One problem is its low energy cost and the nexus' regen rate is pretty fast - plus, there aren't any other abilities on which the nexus uses its energy, so it's just chrono spam.

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Originally Posted by imdrunkontea

I agree. Playing as Protoss, chrono boost makes everything too easy at this point. One problem is its low energy cost and the nexus' regen rate is pretty fast - plus, there aren't any other abilities on which the nexus uses its energy, so it's just chrono spam.

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I used it on my Robotics core to pump out Collossi - Collossi were one of the best counters I could find against hydras (as P ofc). However, I feel like the Pheonix is next to worthless... So decent anti air was hard to find. I love the phasm prism but it has to be backed up or its insta death...

~LoA

I'd love to see your matches, especially your suggested builds. Are you going to upload any?
(That was to Nicol, in case anyone is wondering.)

Either we find a nerf towards the protoss macro mechanic or we will face faster builds for zergs and terrans. On a thought, I guess it would be great to have the 150 spawning pool back for the SC2 beta.

I think its those early few probes you get that throw things off - if you had to wait until gateway to unlock it (and it costed say 100 minerals) i think it would be fine..



So this is kinda off topic but have you guys had any proxy pylon warpgate nonsense happen to you :D

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if you had to wait until gateway to unlock it (and it costed say 100 minerals) i think it would be fine.

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Actually, I'm starting to think that this isn't the problem. Pylon costs are going to slow down your Probe production. It's really the Gateways that are the big problem.

If you let your energy fill up to 100, then get 3 gates, and then constantly Chrono them all, you're going to get many Zealots stupidly fast. Or if you divide this energy between one Gateway and your Nexus, you'll get a big econ and Zealots.

The main thing is the stockpiling of energy early on. So if they're going to delay Chrono, they also have to delay energy at the Nexus.

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So this is kinda off topic but have you guys had any proxy pylon warpgate nonsense happen to you

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No. I got photon cannon contained once, but that was due to my own deep, personal stupidity.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

No. I got photon cannon contained once, but that was due to my own deep, personal stupidity.

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Nico made me laugh. This day will be remembered.

Anyone found a way to stop this rush by now ?

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Originally Posted by The_Blade

Either we find a nerf towards the protoss macro mechanic or we will face faster builds for zergs and terrans. On a thought, I guess it would be great to have the 150 spawning pool back for the SC2 beta.

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Well, just by making it an upgrade to the Nexus, it would be in the same timing than SL, right? Not difficult to fix, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

The main thing is the stockpiling of energy early on. So if they're going to delay Chrono, they also have to delay energy at the Nexus.

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They should get the energy only after the upgrade to CB. That should fix it.
Probably it starts with like 50 energy, right? Maybe just setting it to 0 starting energy would be enough to fix it.

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I think it might be a good idea to require a gateway before you can use chrono charge... Similar to a queen requiring a spawning pool. It wouldnt completely even things out, but it would at least be a delay.

Have you tried 8 pool, defense against the first wave chrono zealot rush? I'm referring here to the fast 3:00 zealot attack. Chrono zealots come at least at 5 mins in mass. So, if you can defend and counter attack it would push the toss off balance?

Have you tried this Nicol?

Can someone verify that in a 2v2 - Terran paired with Protoss, that Chrono can be used on terran buildings? - I SWEAR I saw this this morning and the guy built all over the place. Gifted said it doesn't work. (?)

1. Chronos Boost works on YOUR buildings, not your allies.
2. To elaborate for those outside of the beta:
- Queen requires Spawning pool to be created and costs 150. It builds directly from Hatch (no larva)
- OC costs 150m and is requires barracks as a pre-req. It's also important to know that you can not build scvs while you are upgrading. It negates about 2-3 scvs during that time period.
- Chronos boost is natural to the Nexus. you start with 0 mana and gain 1 mana every second. It's cost is 25 and the nexus can have 100 mana total. You use it on a building to increase the production speed of units or researches in that building by (50 or 100%) for the duration of the buff.

Elaborating the basics from my observations

To help people unaware of how it increases your build.. When you use chronos boost at 25 seconds into game, you boost probe 8/9/10 out. Assumping a pylon at end of 9, you gain just enough minerals after it finishes to have gateway out, instead of waiting the extra 8-10 seconds. During this time, Chronos boost is still active from before, allowing you to punch out another probe and a half.

By the time that chronos boost is over, you should have around 40 energy, allowing 10 more seconds to doubleboost gateways. This times about 4 seconds before a second gateway is out.

In my best case scenario I pulled off all three gateways at 10/10/11 in my build order, pumping out 5 zealots by 15 probes. I think LoA does a slightly different build that involves an 8 zealot push at about 16 probes.

I have not tried this build all that often, but the mineral boost form the first chronos is significant.

IMPORTANT NOTE: While it doesn't explain the Reapers all that well, it does contribute to the overabundance of roach builds as it's a well and good counter to this build. I've seem one build that involved hard zerglings speed tech to speedlings which demolished this start. I will examine the replay and provide results when I get the time. To do an efficient roach counter, I've done overlord at 10, extractor at 10, redrone while waiting for overlord. The extra mineral boost helps ease out the build.

It can be cast on your allys too X_x

UNless it just dose nothing

I was having demo cast it on my tech lab to get out stim and shield faster

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9403/screenshot001qz.jpg

Chrono Boost absolutely works on allied buildings.

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1. Chronos Boost works on YOUR buildings, not your allies.

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I can verify I have seen this - was used on a reactor (and/or barracks?) and pumped out Marines like rabbits