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Hear hear!Quote:
Originally Posted by Romla
In reality, each of the races have a bit of problem -- atleast I think it's a problem, it might be a perk, but each race has a large amount of units with the same form of locomotion.
Protoss have many four-legged walkers, the Terran have many two-legged walkers, and the Zerg have many six-legged walkers.
I just think there's no focus to the Thor's visual design. It's like a walking box with random guns glued all over it.
in comparison, mechwarrior/battletech designs pack just as many weapons, without looking too ridiculous. I'm not saying the thor should look like the following, but just compare the streamlined and more realistic nature of the two mechs.
Wow, Thor doesn't get any love at all, any kind of robot for that matter. sigh.... another opinion thread. I already know it doesn't look realistic, but I am still a lover of mecha. I can never hate the Thor.
The thor will flip over when those guns go off, don't you think?
No, because it's a game. I don't care about realism in a game with psychic magic aliens. I don't care about realism in a space fantasy setting. I loved the Thor the minute I saw it. I just like mecha. Believe me when the Thor is actually more realistic than more outlandish mecha designs. The Thor isn't even Gundam like humanoid. It's more like a tanks with legs. The only thing I would like improved about the model is sturdier legs like Metal Gear Rex. Other than that it's cool.
New model would be good. But what Thor real need is a new portrait. Like i said before in the forum:
''I hate that ridiculous headbanger showing his tonge. Sometimes the Blizzards Badass style bother me... just because the Thor is big, his pilot dont need to be a 'bad radical guy'. If I had an army i would put a trained pilot to guide a expensive vehicle as the Thor....i would never put a retarded in that function.''
I think realism is the least of anyone's worries. ;) Besides, they gave the Thor a sieging mechanism on the legs. I'm not sure it implants itself when it barrages now, but Blizzard gave it some thought during its release.Quote:
Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk
I find it somewhat ironic how one of the main arguments against the Terran Thor is realism! Yes, it has stubby legs. Yes, it's got more guns than the space to even hold the bullets. But it's a mech! By its very nature the thing is impractical no matter how you cook it.
Now, surely people will rebuttal with something on the lines of "I meant it more as to be not so ridiculous," but give me the ridiculous. It's not as if he transforms those guns out of tiny sticks that somehow transform into multiple guns like how they do it in cartoons.
And another silly is how there are several concurrent suggestions for the new Thor, whether it be Macross, Mechwarrior, or Terminator. If Blizzard did pander to one suggestion, I'm sure the guys who suggested another point would continue their rabid campaign for 'their' Thor change. :p
The Thor is the epitome of the Rule of Cool. I say leave the poor guy's dignity. I'm all for replacing the unit as long as they keeping him Single Player in his intro incarnation (SCV-buildable and siege cannons). But don't touch the guy's model. :D
No, it's not. How do you know what everyone is worried about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kacaier
It may not be.Quote:
But it's a mech! By its very nature the thing is impractical no matter how you cook it.
By no means is that silly. You are suggesting that Blizzard shouldn't change anything? Like no change to first Siege tank model, no change to Infestor? That's your opinion and it's just as silly as ours.Quote:
And another silly is how there are several concurrent suggestions for the new Thor, whether it be Macross, Mechwarrior, or Terminator. If Blizzard did pander to one suggestion, I'm sure the guys who suggested another point would continue their rabid campaign for 'their' Thor change. :p
Evidently everyone has his own opinion what is cool and what is not.Quote:
The Thor is the epitome of the Rule of Cool.
You guys really seem to have only watched the video I posted and not read my opinion...
I think the proportions are wrong, it's too wide! like a walking wall!Quote:
Originally Posted by Josue
If it had at least Macross proportions (narrower but thicker) it would look better!
The size is not that bad as long as that change is made! In fact if you look at the original concept desing, even though it's not that cool, the better proportioned width is what makes it work!
Well we will see what direction Blizzard takes with the Thor for beta, and hopefully, it is a good direction. Because, as it sits right now, the Thor intrudes on the role of other Terran units in lesser tiers. It is not so much the design on the Thor that is bad (at least to me) it is more of less that it is a square peg in a round hole. It just DOESN'T belong whenever I see Terran square off.
StarCraft is a sci-fi game. If we are to base a conclusion on the "realism" that Blizzard intends to put into StarCraft 2, we ought to look towards StarCraft 1—or, of course, what they've shown of SC2. I don't believe I need to be the one to list the innumerable impossibilities found within the StarCraft franchise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Romla
But I don't have to (hopefully). It's a game. It's soft science fiction. It's alright for it to be unrealistic. There were several threads in the Lore section outlining some of the stuff that makes no sense in the universe. To argue that Blizzard seeks realism to the nth degree is an undefendable position.
Again, I'm sure though, an argument of the degrees of the suspension of belief are what is in debate, rather than absolute realism. However, I think even that can be technobabbled easily:
That uses existing StarCraft mechanics and it not outlandish to imagine if you accept the positions of Terran artificial gravity and practicality. In my opinion, it'll be queer to complain that one's suspension of belief is broken. I suspect instead that the aesthetics are in question, rather than realism or suspension of belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by Technobabble
I definitely don't want to bring up another discussion on the practicality of bipedal mechs. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Romla
Unless you're actually postulating mechs are feasible (realistically, real-world, the universe that we reside in) machines, then I could reasonably say that you're in the minority. I am absolutely confident that the majority people enjoy mechs for its rule of cool rather than it being a smart war machine. If, however, this is something you absolutely believe in and are not just pulling this to just discredit a part of my post, then I will be happy to debate the practicality of bipedal 'mechs' in the Lore or Off-Topic forum with you. :)
True enough, I concur with you. Some things Blizzard should have changed. But this was more through popular outburst (original Siege Tank, Soul Hunter, Stalker). Perhaps I was wrong to call the opposition 'silly.' I'll retract that opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Romla
However, I remain stalwart in saying, Thor ought to stay as is. I don't believe there is enough opposition to warrant a Thor change. Now, if there was, it wouldn't matter what I would argue anyhow. But I am part of the 'static movement' concerning the Thor that represents a large opposition from a sweeping popularity for change. ;)
Also, my overall sentiment in the quoted segment, was that people are suggesting the Thor should be 'this' or 'that', thus representing multiple different opinions on what they see the Thor as. I argued that if Blizzard chose to go with 'Macross-like Thor', then 'Mechwarrior-like Thor' and 'Terminator-like Thor' guys would still complain. There's no obvious concerted movement in the regard of what the Thor should be (though I suppose you could label them all for change).
What I said was a hyperbole. I am very well aware there are personal views on what is cool. What that statement was more along the lines of Blizzard designing with that virtue in mind. Plus it was my conclusion reinforcing the fact that realism should not be a concern. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Romla
I think if the legs were larger or if the model were scaled down and smaller, people wouldn't pick on this stupid unit so much.
I personally feel like they were trying too hard when they made a Thor. It doesn't feel like Starcraft, and yet somehow the Goliath really felt like Starcraft.
The Goliath only feels like SC because it was in SC. If the Goliath had never existed in SC1 and suddenly the Viking was introduced in SC2 everyone would be like "Transformers and Mechs don't feel like SC."Quote:
Originally Posted by Asfastasican
^ goliath is a low tech kind of mech. lets move on people, this is sc2 we don't want to make the terran to mediocre of a scifi race thus the thor and viking.
The thor is big or fat because all the terran armor seems like that, they don't seem to sleek except only for the ghost. Just take a look at the marine not sleek looking at all but very bulky like.
I like the thor only problem is its weapon choice. Projectiles? Flak canons? Please, the terran has already too much of those and the thor needs something way different and better. The year is 2500, other mech would pwnd this thor mech easily with their all around arsenals including energy weapons. Improvised and mount some of those bc laser technology to the thor and we have the most impressive terran ground unit. Right now, the way it shoots is just bland, the marauder power rockets looks more impressive and devastating.
Personally I've never liked the Thor's mech design and I've always thought it could do with an overhaul, be it to the Mass Effect Leviathan that Woland proposed or the Terminator HK Tank that Romla proposed doesn't really matter, just as long as they lose the mech.
Side topic - What do people think about combinable mechs?
Not to the extent of say Voltron/Power Rangers, but more like Archer + Hippogryph combination.
Say two smaller vehicles or mechs that combined into a bigger mech. Is it too sci-fi and not very Terran?
Don't like it much, but then I find mechs as a whole to be a bit deplorable on a battlefield.
To Kacaier:
1. I am absolutely aware of the absurdities in Starcraft Lore, but that doesn't mean every monstrosity must be automatically accepted.
2. You have completely ignored my suggestion - to get rid of the bipedal Thor for good. Or at least make him smaller, because giant skyscraper on two legs certainly isn't something what I find interesting or even cool.
3. People would still complain isn't any argument. Some people will always complain. I am not so sure if the Thor is really so popular as you say. Definitely there is a lot of debate about him.
4. If reality should not be a concern then flying hamburgers and talking squirrels can easily be in Protoss war arsenal. Reality must be a concern - to a certain extent. It only matters what is someone willing to tolerate and what not. I will survive if the Thor stays as it is, but if that can change I am definitely for it.
No, but then there's no basis in realism for it to be denied either. That's the point I'm trying to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by Romla
Apologies. I merely only scanned the suggestions through the thread. Specifically I was replying to your individual post and the overall sentiment within the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Romla
In my original post to this thread, I also was open to entirely replacing the Thor as well—as so long as it was kept in the single player portion in its full glory. ;)
I believe it is a valid argument if 'some' people complain is a valid argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Romla
On the terms of popularity, I don't think the polarity of the Thor was as wide as any other remodeled unit, say the Infestor, Stalker, or Siege tank. It would definitely have been nice to add a poll to this thread so we wouldn't just argue in ambiguity. However, SC:L isn't the only fan community either. It may be entirely fruitless to debate majority of SC2 fan community, except on what Blizzard decides what is majority.
Reductio ad absurdum. There is, of course, always a limit to everything. However, I pointedly argued the degrees of the suspension of belief, and easily solved the issue with some technobabble, which Blizzard does anyhow. I doubt it would be possible to argue for "flying hamburgers and talking squirrels." :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Romla
And as my per my previous post, it is most likely less of an issue in the case of realism, and more in the opinion of pure aestheticism. In this case, it is merely personal opinion and popular opinion. There is definitely no basis for the Thor argued against merely because of the argument of realism.
The Thor needs more guns.
Realism is not the point, the point is the lore has to be logical. We all know protoss aren't realism because the don't exist (no shit...) but they are logical has a whole race.
Terran has to be logical into the limit of the lore, even more than protoss or zerg because they are human with technology we know and somehow understand. Thor is not logical, it only follow the stupid rule of cool. Bigger -*> more cool, more cannon -> more cool, it is just pointless and stupid.
In a smaller proportion, the same apply for viking, this is not a logical unit. We accomodate more of this one because it add gameplay... and don.t take half of the screen.
To the above posters, I like the other mechanical units in SC2 and they feel like Starcraft to me. The Viking is a-ok in my book and the others look good as well. A lumbering oath of a mech coming out of a japanese anime doesn't do it for me! And YES, I will compare the Thor to the goliath because it has LEGS! The goliath felt right in Starcraft and so did the vulture and tank. Nobody cared that it looked similar to a Mechwarrior at the time and nobody cares now.Quote:
Originally Posted by electricmole
I think the most game-related argument I can make against the current Thor is that it is so large, so encumbered, so huge, that it looks awkward, clumsy and silly as it stumbles across the field. It doesn't look right because it's proportionally out of whack.
Other large ground units, such as the Colossus, Ultralisk, Siege Tank, Archon, etc don't have this issue, because the overall look of the unit, the shape, the size, the animations, all work with eachother to make it look believable and natural.
Simply changing out the current legs for treads would alleviate this. Now it will rumble along, and it will look believable and natural (assuming the tread base is large enough and wide enough to believably support the top portion).
It makes more sense than Banshees.Quote:
Thor is not logical, it only follow the stupid rule of cool. Bigger -*> more cool, more cannon -> more cool, it is just pointless and stupid.
People like big things. People like guns. People like to see something bristling with barrels on top of barrels. That's why people like old battleships, even though modern cruisers are far more effective.
People also like things that look human. Hence the Thor. A concept ridiculous and awesome enough to be made by the same people who thought that a tank that turns into an artillery piece was a good idea. Or who decided that what a space/air-superiority fighter really needed was a wing that pointed downward, just to make sure you couldn't possibly land it.
The Thor looks like a battleship with legs. Something more mundane, like tank treads or whatever, is merely a nod towards realism for a concept that comes entirely out of some guy's penile insecurity.
I've never understood this. What about the Thor's visual design looks at all like Anime? Anime mechs, particularly the most famous designs, are taller than they are wide. The Thor is not. The basic proportions are not even similar.Quote:
lumbering oath of a mech coming out of a japanese anime doesn't do it for me!
So where does this accusation of "Anime" come from?
I'm not sure I understand your argument here.Quote:
And YES, I will compare the Thor to the goliath because it has LEGS! The goliath felt right in Starcraft and so did the vulture and tank. Nobody cared that it looked similar to a Mechwarrior at the time and nobody cares now.
You say that the Goliath "looked similar to a Mechwarrior". But this is OK. Because it "felt right." But it's wrong for the Thor. Presumably because it feels wrong.
Many of the earliest and most iconic 'Mechs in "Mechwarrior" (ie: BattleTech) came from, get this, Anime! So it's OK if it looks like MechWarrior, which is derived from Anime. Because it "felt right."
Could you elaborate on what "felt right" actually means in terms other people could understand?
This is not a "game-related" argument. It has to do with how it looks, not how it plays.Quote:
I think the most game-related argument I can make against the current Thor is that it is so large, so encumbered, so huge, that it looks awkward, clumsy and silly as it stumbles across the field. It doesn't look right because it's proportionally out of whack.
As I said, the Thor HAS to be big. It's part of its role as a tank unit. It absorbs splash so it other units don't have to take it. It's big so it can block the path towards your much weaker units. The Thor does not intrude with the role of other units. It's just another thread with people not understanding the Thor's role and believe that their opinion about it is correct.
wow this looks really sweet. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Visions of Khas
What I propose is precisely get more from the Anime proportions! make the Thor narrower! I think it's tall enough but it's too wide, like a walking wall! Make it look more like thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Precisely! keep it big, just give it "realistic" proportions that make it look and feel correct! I.E. not that exaggerated width! it looks like a damn walking wall!Quote:
Originally Posted by flabortast
But how can they reduce the width if one its purposes is to be a big roadblock? You should be able to block small chokes with one Thor alone and wider ones with 2. How can they do that if you reduce it's width?
Maybe increasing it's height and making it thicker? I mean give it better proportions, make it look right, not too big nor too small! and for God's sake not a walking wall!Quote:
Originally Posted by flabortast
Wait, the Thor was based on Roseanne Barr? o_O;Quote:
You should be able to block small chokes with one Thor alone and wider ones with 2.
I do not think the Thor should be made to resemble an anime mech. There is no reason, however, it can't be made more sleek and efficient in its construction. The Thor is the result of years of dedicated research, mounting weaponry comparable to the most powerful battlecruisers. It is the Behemoth of the land. That said, the Blizzard art department has demonstrated, time and again, that they are capable designing superb units and structures; there is no reason in the world the Thor can't be large and intimidating, and sleek and powerful at the same time. As was said earlier by someone, at the moment it looks like a mobile box with an assemblage of guns haphazardly glued to it. Please, for the love of god, nix it and start afresh!
But... that's what it is. That's one of its main roles: to act as a mobile wall that shoots people. It has high Hp and takes up lots of room.Quote:
and for God's sake not a walking wall!
Again, sleek and efficient is Anime. It's what Veritechs look like. It's what Gundams look like. When I think "sleek and efficient Mech", I think "Gundam".Quote:
I do not think the Thor should be made to resemble an anime mech. There is no reason, however, it can't be made more sleek and efficient in its construction.
What the current Thor model looks like to me is something that was put together out of spare parts, ductape, and bailing wire, except they just kept adding parts. It fits very well with the "used future" aspect of the Terrans. It shouldn't be sleek and smooth. It shouldn't look futuristic or high tech. It should look rough, unfinished, barely functional, slap-dash, and so forth.Quote:
The Thor is the result of years of dedicated research, mounting weaponry comparable to the most powerful battlecruisers. It is the Behemoth of the land.
IMO they should make it a variation of the Terminator HK Tank, make th Sige Tank wheeled (like the Metal Gear Leviathan) and make the Hellion a hoverer like the old Cobra
I didn't realize Hideaki Anno designed the SR-71 Blackbird.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol
The more you know /rainbowQuote:
Originally Posted by Visions of Khas
Well duh, the SR-71 isn't exactly a mech is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Visions of Khas
They should make the Thor how it looked like in Thundergod, it seems different to me in game play.
I just think most posters haven't seen too mujch mecha anime. The Thor actually falls into the more realistic, tankish category. I have seen far more unrealistic and outlandish designs. Thor isn't even humanoid. It has no arms, hands, or fingers most anime mecha designs have. It is more in line with MechWarrior than Anime, but then MechWarrior designs were taken from anime. It's more like Metal Gear Rex only with a lower center of gravity. Also, whoever thinks that a MechWarrior mech is in any way more realistic than an anime mecha is flat out misinformed. Giant Mecha of any form is not practical in any way, but it shouldn't detract to our enjoyment of a fantasy setting.
I was emphasizing the "sleek and efficient" aspect.
If they are going to redesign the Thor, it still has to be wide for it's blocking and defense functions. It should have legs because I am sick and tired of seeing caterpillar treads. Just make sturdy looking legs that takes up 1/3 of the machine's structure. It should still retain the original model's relatively low center of gravity. Even the Viking/Goliath had a higher center of gravity than the Thor. They are working on banking effects for air units so they can just as easily animate it so it doesn't look awkward when moving..
To clarify, I always base everything on the gameplay model not the concept art. The in-game model looks drastically different than the concept art. Also, I'd like to see the "real" Thor in the same sense we've seen the "real" marine and "rea" viking through cinematics or in single player.
I look forward to see how a Thor looks in this hangar bay.
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/st..._DevStory1.jpg
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/st...god_Comic1.jpg
This is how I feel it should look.
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/st..._SC2_Game4.jpg
Its legs just need to be redone to make me happy.