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Q u o t e:
Is the Obelisk still in the game?
Karune said:
The Obelisk is no longer in the game. Instead, the time warp ability which allows a building to produce or research faster for a set duration is now on the Nexus. This opens up several new strategies and the development team is really looking forward to what players will be able to come up with utilizing this ability during beta.
Wow. Nicol got his wish.
Need more info before I can pass judgement.
This will definitely be interesting!
So now all the macro mechanics basically amount to "push button to go faster"
Was kinda hoping for alittle more depth than that...
Yep. No depth in deciding what to make produce and/or research faster. None whatsoever. :rolleyes:
That's far superior to the nothing of Proton Charge. This is an ability that can substantially affect build orders, much like supply drop for the Terrans.
Isn't gaining a resource/tech/army advantage the whole idea behind the word "macro" in this game? I thought the depth was supposed to come from the choices between multiple abilities. Like scan vs mule and maybe fast tech vs proton charge.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
There's incredible strategic depth to it. You basically are given a tool to speed production of anything in your build order, be it a research or unit. Although it's still gonna amount to "press the button every x seconds", but at least now players have some choice in what they want the button pressing to improve. And given multiple nexuses that'll just couple the decision making.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
So basically this ability allows you to channel faster time into units or research.
Proton Charge allows you to channel minerals into units or research or buildings or supply or....
The big thing here is that their is something about the communities pyschi that thinks they are getting new and more options. They had trouble understanding that more minerals means more choices but now that its relabled "time" their excited.
Shut the **** up. We're sick of your stupidity.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
A) THERE WERE MULTIPLE PROBLEMS WITH PC
B) THIS FIXES MOST OF THEM
You're a goddamn lunatic. Go somewhere where your kind of mindless drivel is appreciated. Like TL.
There are certain benefits that come from getting certain units out sooner. For example, it might open up new rush strategies. It might open up setting up faster expansions - more minerals. It enables to adapt faster which might save you and enable you to continue playing the game. Although I hate the concept of any race manipulating TIME ITSELF, it helps differentiate the races quite a bit. I am entirely for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Indirectly, the augmented mineral gain allowed for more units or research. But the decision making in this process was extremely mundane. TW at least allows for more strategic choices in terms of how a player wants to use it. If they want to amass Stalkers then they could TW their gates to pump out an army. Given multiple Nexuses a player will likely be able to double pump them.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Or, if players wish to shift tech to something else, they can TW the necessary buildings to speed tech.
Or, if players wish to secure a yellow resource node and harvest as much minerals as possible...they can TW the Nexus to produce a quick handful of Probes. All PC could have done was speed up an already existing handful of probes.
No, that's not how it works.Quote:
They had trouble understanding that more minerals means more choices but now that its relabled "time" their excited.
Proton Charge allows you to get more minerals. Notice the period on the end of the sentence. That's all it does. The multifaceted utility of minerals is irrelevant; what matters is what the ability does. It gives you more minerals.
Time Warp directly gives you the choice between faster unit production and faster research. So the ability has an intrinsic decision making quality. What you do with it is your choice.
Furthermore, you might have noticed "research" on that list. Minerals cannot make research faster, because research always requires some quantity of gas.
Also, this unit production increase is not the same as using minerals to spam more Gateways. It works on buildings that require gas, which PC does not. And it's temporary. If I need more Immortals right now, I can get that with this ability. But if I have a continuous need for more Immortals, this ability will be detrimental in the long run. It would be a better use of the Protoss's resources to invest in more RoboBays and spend Time Warps on research. Transitioning from one to the other is not obvious. When do you pick more RoboBays over this ability? That's a decision you'll have to make, and you'll have to live with the consequences.
So no: the two are not interchangeable, either in an isolated sense or in a global sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blazur
Yah. My biggest problem with it is how unimaginative it is. It feels like they just copy and pasted Spawn Larva. Expecially since Protoss already have a faster unit production mechanic (Warp-In).
Regardless Ill reserve final judgement till I play with it.
Where your draw the line is a factor of your minds interpretation of causation. Its like some players thinking Spawn Larva involves the decision to make units or workers. It depends on how far down the line you go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
I wonder how it is implemented. Does Nexus now how a mana pool? Are there 2 skills in the nexus, whereby both become on cooldown when you use one?
Is this skill a researchable skill?
Research!!!!! Spawn Larva doesn't help with that.Quote:
it feels like they just copy and pasted spawn larva.
Yes it feels like they copy pasted it and tweaked it for protoss. Its a spawn larva comboed with research acceleration. Nice try though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
I don't see how this is redundant from Spawn Larva. That ability is isolated to one building, with one purpose. TW can be extended to anything in the game which has a timer (research, train, etc). And for all we know Protoss players may be able to cast this on allied buildings (*squeel*). If that's the case, the strategic depth is suddenly compounded in team games.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
It's pretty imaginative if you ask me. What other RTS game has a similar mechanic? I've not played Supreme Commander or any of the latest C&C games, but I'm pretty sure a similar mechanic doesn't exist in Blizzard's games.
To me this is a pretty exciting ability. The name is kinda lame, but the strategic possibilities are endless.
I think the decision of when to use this ability in a defensive, or offensive way will be very strategic. Specially if you want early tech, or late tech, or quick defenses or quick nexus expansion warp-ins.
possibilities are endless. great mechanic
And therefore not copy and pasted.Quote:
Yes it feels like they copy pasted it and tweaked it for protoss.
And regardless of its origin, it's still fundamentally superior to PC. Hell, it's superior to Spawn Larva, due to having built-in decision making.
We don't know that. Or, if you do, please cite a source.Quote:
TW can be extended to anything in the game which has a timer (research, train, etc).
Spawn larva is associated with a unit though, this new macro is used by the Nexus. The Queen has to be near a Hatchery to use Spawn Larva, while Nexus can seemingly be used on any building instantly.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Karune:
The Obelisk is no longer in the game. Instead, the time warp ability which allows a building to produce or research faster for a set duration is now on the Nexus
The main reason I don't see this as similar to spawn larvae is because I would very rarely expect it to ever be used for faster production.
The wording makes it sound like it only affects one building. How often are you going to sacrifice your economy or tech in order to get an extra unit out of that gateway? It sounds like an "oh shit" button for when you're on the verge of a death. Larvae on the other hand, is pure production.
Please read the statement I quoted. It said, "TW can be extended to anything in the game which has a timer (research, train, etc)."Quote:
Karune:
Things with timers include more than what Karune stated. Like shield and energy recharge, cooldowns, etc.
But you'll be using it consistently. Which means it acts as additional Gateways/Robo Bays/StarGates/etc. Or as research increase. If you need the production from 3 Robo bays, but don't want to spend the money/time on them, then getting 2 and this ability may cover your needs. Plus, you don't have that 3rd Robo sitting there doing nothing if you tech switch later.Quote:
The wording makes it sound like it only affects one building. How often are you going to sacrifice your economy or tech in order to get an extra unit out of that gateway?
I think this is an important point they should include in the ability:
Disables the ability of the Nexus to build Probes or Mothership(s) for a time after the ability is cast.
Its the most surefire way of scrubbing out any APM sink-like traits.
Isn't this basically the ability I came up with like 8 months ago?
I like this version of it, I guess. I don't really like it on the Nexus, though... and I wonder how much it advances the production and research.
You misunderstood or I didn't convey properly. In my statement I was referring to any action you commit on a building which takes time to complete. Examples:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
- Training of units.
- Committing researches.
- Building production.
Cooldowns, shields and energy recharging are not something I'd assume would be affected by TW.
Seems like everyone and their mother is claiming ownership of this idea already. It's not like it's something revolutionary enough that everyone here hadn't thought of it at one point or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Either way, we have to yet to know if it's gonna stick and be final. Also I do wonder about recharge shields/power abilities on the Obelisk and their ultimate fate.
Karune did not specifically mention "Building production." And he did not describe the power as generically as you. So I'm still wanting a source for including "Building production" on that list.
They've already said it's going to be in the beta. And if they're shooting for a mid-2010 release date (anywhere from May to July), there won't be enough time to rip out a macro mechanic, add a new one, and still do adequate balance testing/tweaks.Quote:
Either way, we have to yet to know if it's gonna stick and be final.
This is a very old idea from the very begining of the macro debate. Kinda makes you wonder if Blizzard was reading the forums back then: rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Raisk
Also Karune has said the Obelisk and Argus Link are out. Presumably Shield Recharge is too.
Repeat after me "When its ready."Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Yo dawg I heard you like decreasing macro so we added a decreasing macro effect to your macro mechanic so now you can decrease macro while your increasing macro!Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
Yeah, that's an assumption made by me. I've asked for clarification on this in the official thread. More importantly, I'm eager to hear if the ability can be used on allied buildings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
If you follow professional SC at all, you'll know how important relative timing windows are. Time Warp is going to make predicting a Protoss opponent much more difficult, and therefor SC2 in general is less predictable.
Good.
Hey you know what ability would have great energy tension with time warp?
Proton Charge.
I see your point. Ill get back to you on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Yeah, if Proton Charge wasn't BROKENQuote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
We haven't really seen anything indicating it's gone, have we? Right now it's in that weird limbo along with a lot of other abilities throughout the game. I think PC is still in the game :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Edit: oh god double edit because squid just edited.
Blues have said its gone. And no Demo PC was not broken. Blizzard said why they removed it and it had nothing to do with your paranoid "mass effect" ravings.Quote:
Originally Posted by rcp181
=| Well, maybe, but then I was the only person who suggested and discussed it for a while. At least as far as I saw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raisk
I'm not saying Blizzard got the idea from me, but... uh... I did suggest it. And as far as I saw I was the only one... in fact I recall people IGNORED it as a suggestion! Grr! Damn you all.
I don't remember that... I'm going to find where I made the suggestion and discussed it with Matt II... but I can't remember where it was. Sigh.Quote:
This is a very old idea from the very begining of the macro debate. Kinda makes you wonder if Blizzard was reading the forums back then: rolleyes:
C'est la vie I suppose.
No, they specifically said PC (and Argus Link) was gone.Quote:
We haven't really seen anything indicating it's gone, have we?
Link please.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Edit: Oh yeah, I remember. What I meant to say is that a similar resource ability is not necessarily gone. :s
Allot of people ignored it because it was so old. Recently I think Nicol resurrected it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius