I've been wondering something for quite some time and I want to see if anyone else shared this concern. Do any of you feel that there might be too much crowd control overlap between Vortex and Time Rift?
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I've been wondering something for quite some time and I want to see if anyone else shared this concern. Do any of you feel that there might be too much crowd control overlap between Vortex and Time Rift?
I think Vortex is mainly for large masses of units and the time bubble is mainly for disabling buildings and really, really slow units. I don't see them overlapping eachother much, but it could be argued that together they provide the Mothership with way to much crowd control.
It still drives me nuts that you can only build one. I'd rather revert it back to extremely high supply, gas, and mineral amounts.
Actually, I wish it was campaign only so it could be given the proper glory it deserves.
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I really think they should consider dropping Time Rift back to High Templar (combos great with psi storm) and restoring Planet Cracker to the mothership as an AoE DoT.
Btw anyone else find it hilarious that the mothership short story shows it using and ability it doesnt even have any more.
http://starcraft2.com/images/artwork/ss107-hires.jpg
Whats funny about gameplay is that things tend to do more or less than what they do in "reality".
I think giving the bubble to the HT would still create an awkward relationship since the HT already has Phase Shift.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Also, I think the Planet Cracker is still there lore wise, but they won't use it in game since fellow Protoss are on the surfaces of the planets they are deployed to. However, I do think they should have some sort of highly destructive, damage-dealing ability — something on the order of a Terran nuke, but more powerful and not as instantaneous. I actually came up with an idea once, but I'm not sure if I can find it on this forum.
I definitely agree with this, or giving it glory during the campaign as well as having it like is in multilpayer.Quote:
Actually, I wish it was campaign only so it could be given the proper glory it deserves.
Aoe Dot just isn’t fun since any smart player will simply move units out of the motherships range and terrans will just lift off their buildings. It’s a good skill lorewise (ie it’s designed kill zerg) and definitely should be put into singleplayer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wankey
Repaired :p
Considering how little we know of what Temporal Rift actually does, no.Quote:
Do any of you feel that there might be too much crowd control overlap between Vortex and Time Rift?
It's not using the Planet Cracker. That's the purification beam.Quote:
Btw anyone else find it hilarious that the mothership short story shows it using and ability it doesnt even have any more.
It's kind of hard to move Turrets and Bunkers. And I'm pretty sure that units that go into a Vortex only come out when the effect ends.Quote:
Aoe Dot just isn’t fun since any smart player will simply move units out of the motherships range and terrans will just lift off their buildings.
Can you imagine a Mothership/Nuke combo where you scout or bait the enemy army into a vortex, then time a nuke to drop right when it expires?
I would shit myself in awe.
I made a suggestion back in blizzforums to make the mothership into a composite unit with multiple parts, each part (or trisector of the MS) would house the "hardware" that supports each ability. Each part had its own HP and shields and were individually destroyable. And you also had to upgrade/build the components individually.
Basically, I suggested that the mothership be like a PC-motherboard, and each "add-on" was used as a stand alone unit. The maximum number of components you could have on the mothership was 3, but the possible components were 4-5. So you could tailor your mothership to have 3 abilites but not overpowered to have all of them.
If the possible abilities/components are cloaking field, planet cracker, vortex, time rift, wormhole transit, recall, stasis field and normal attack --at 1 time, you could only have 3 of them in your MS. You can choose to overlap time rift and vortex but, making the MS an AOE monster, but you may have to sacrifice mobility or normal attack or cloak.
But back then, I was also suggesting to bring back the mothership as a unique unit as it was a time when the news was that you were allowed multiple motherships. So, it did not go over very well with the folks at blizzforums.
With the current news and taking into consideration this thread, what do you guys think?
Mother actually got 5 of them: Attack and cloak, passive one.Wormhole transit (25E), time rift(50E) and Vortex(75E). The MS got 200E, so considering it has not energy upgrade, you can still do a lot of stuff.
It's clearly a super-arbiter with something we can now name attack.
Another good reason to return Planet Cracker on Mothership:
You can combo cloaking and Planet Cracker. When you move you MS at the opponent he doesnt know if you have cloaked troops underneath or if your preparing to blast him.
Another thing that I noticed from the recent Mothership footage is it appears the Mothership has adopted and attack pattern similar to the Salamander in C&C 4. The Salamander for instance has four different missle pods that each have a "attack cone" in four different directions around the unit.
It appears that the Mothership has been given a similar setup where if you put the Mothership in the middle of the battle it will be able to deal 3 times as much damage. now what ability would be perfect to use if there are enemies on all three sides of the Mothership? You guessed it Planet Cracker
A baseless assumption. At no point was the Mothership directly over-top of any units to prove your hypothesis. It attacked in the direction of the enemy, like every other unit does.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
It attacked from only one side. Not like every other unit does.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
OK, I'll rephrase.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
The Mothership has no distinct front or back. It shoots in the direction of the enemy, like every other unit. You have NO PROOF (as usual) of your position.
In the video we see if firing from the side closest to the enemy. All three sides are eventually fired. Well see whos eventually right Demo. Dont worry Ill remind you ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
Another thing to notice is that the Mothership is asymetric. If you look at the large floating circles two are on the same side.
It fired from the side closest to the enemy. It always fired from the side closest to the enemy. That doesn't mean it can fire from two or three sides at the same time like the Salamander.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Until we see it firing from two or three sides at once, you are full of shit.
I think high templars phase shift overlaps with temporal rift and vortex :\
Firing from only one side when the player knows it can fire from all three sides would be absolutly horrendous aesthetic design.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
Then I guess the design sucks, because you are wrong as usual.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
I look forward to quoting you in the future when its revealed the mothership works the way I predicted.
Now back on topic, yes Brutaxilos, I agree that Vortex and Time Rift overlap heavily with Phase Shift. Thats why I would like to see HTs drop phase shift and add time rift.
It's a matter of concentrating energy, the MS armament got 3 output but only one energy core, so it can always fire at the closest enemy. Where is the problem??Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
EDIT: You know, I really want to see both of you in front of each other one day...
In what way? Phase Shift targets a unit. TR and Vortex target areas. A unit cannot avoid Phase Shift; it is gone. Period.Quote:
I think high templars phase shift overlaps with temporal rift and vortex :\
You can't avoid Vortex when it's cast right on top of you. But Vortex and Phase Shift have an important difference: your units can most past the target. If you throw Vortex down on a ramp, the enemy isn't going down that ramp, but you're not going up it either. If you Phase Shift someone on the ramp, both you and the opponent can still get up there.
And again, we don't know what Temporal Rift does yet. So it can't possibly overlap with anything.
In short: no. They don't overlap. You will use them for different things.
lol if Demo and I ever met face to face :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Gt2slurp
Yes Nicol we know there are differences. That doesnt mean they still dont overlap. Look at what situations you would use one over the other. Now compare it with abilities on other spell casters like the Nighthawk. You cant say hunter missle overlaps much with say defense point droid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
What I think would be nice is if the "Time Rift" ability would act as a shield instead of a "slowing ability" effectively preventing all ranged attacks from hitting a certain area. Considering that "Stasis" in the original StarCraft had both an offensive and defensive use this would be like splitting it into two differnt abilities but with the added benefit of the units beneath the "Time Rift" dome still being able to attack everything outside (if they possess a ranged attack). Furthermore if (as someone had suggested before) this version of "Time Rift" and "Vortex" would share a single cool-down period it would add a strategic choice to the use of the Mothership.
HSM and defense drone are all on the same unit. Whereas Phase Shift and Vortex are on different units. The minor overlap between the two is warranted, especially since they're on units that are on completely different trees.Quote:
Look at what situations you would use one over the other. Now compare it with abilities on other spell casters like the Nighthawk. You cant say hunter missle overlaps much with say defense point droid.
It's like saying that the Reaver's AoE overlaps with Psi Storm. Yes in the most technical sense, this is true. But it doesn't mean that Reavers and HTs are interchangeable. And it most certainly does not justify giving Reavers Psi Storm, letting HTs throw Scarabs, or removing either ability entirely.
Time Rift and Vortex are on the same unit. Theres allot of potential issues here. One is the Mothership's abundance of CC. Another is the Protoss race's general abundance of CC.
Trust me. Im all for noncombat support spells. I love them. But not 4 variations on a theme. Concentrated coolness.
Yeah, you can't have a race that has a theme or anything :rolleyes:Quote:
Time Rift and Vortex are on the same unit. Theres allot of potential issues here. One is the Mothership's abundance of CC. Another is the Protoss race's general abundance of CC.
I like the fact that the spells for each race are separated into general themes. Terran spells tend to be about blowing things up: doing damage directly. Even EMP hurts shields as a secondary effect. Protoss spells tend to be about removing units from battle or limiting their maneuverability. Zerg spells don't have a general theme yet.
As for the differences between Temporal Rift and Vortex, I have yet to hear an explanation of what Temporal Rift actually does. Until someone can actually say what it does, all comparisons between them are BS.
You're right, Nicol. The abilities have been distributed to match each race's basic concept. Terrans are glass cannons; therefore, it's important for them to end fights as quickly and decisively as possible rather than draw them out. Ergo, big, direct damage is key. The Protoss while numerically inferior, can just about out-punch everything else out there. Hence, their abilities focus on dividing up the enemies and dealing with the threats bit by bit. The Zerg are all about numbers. Their abilities focus on exaggerating it as much as possible and (probably) making use of those numbers (e.g. trading Banelings).
Thats not the issue (Nicol just twisted around the word theme). No one ever complained about overlap between hunter seeker and Nukes.
Numbers. Zerg spells are about increasing your own troop numbers. Summoning units, taking control of enemy units, whatever. And dehabilitation of enemy units as well.Quote:
Terran spells tend to be about blowing things up: doing damage directly. Even EMP hurts shields as a secondary effect. Protoss spells tend to be about removing units from battle or limiting their maneuverability. Zerg spells don't have a general theme yet.
Protoss I'd say is about manipulating the battlefield in different ways.
Uh... anyway, I wouldn't say anything overlaps between Temporal Rift, Vortex or Phase Shift. They all do different things, and are on very different units. Anyway, from the looks of things, Temporal Rift slows down the attack, spellcasting and movement speed of all units caught in it's effect. That doesn't really overlap with Vortex other than them both being area control spells.
That just goes to show my point. The argument about the overlap between Phase Shift and Vortex is just as valid as the argument about overlap between HSM and Nukes. They both do single-shot damage over an area, and they're both avoidable.Quote:
Thats not the issue (Nicol just twisted around the word theme). No one ever complained about overlap between hunter seeker and Nukes.
If you think that Phase Shift overlaps unnecessarily with Vortex, then you must also conclude that HSM overlaps similarly with Nukes. Otherwise you're just cherry picking PS and Vortex for some other reason not explained.
If that's what it does, then you wouldn't really use them in the same situations. TR is best for units that you want to continue to shoot at; it's an area debuff. TR combos well with Psi Storm (assuming Psi Storm's effects are not hampered by TR). Vortex is more about removing units from combat; you want to deal with fewer enemy units right now.Quote:
Anyway, from the looks of things, Temporal Rift slows down the attack, spellcasting and movement speed of all units caught in it's effect. That doesn't really overlap with Vortex other than them both being area control spells.
Both of them combo reasonably well with Force Field, to force enemy units into the location of interest.
Protoss having 4 different CC abilities isn't really an issue since they each do something unique and they compliment each other; there is a lot of uses for them in the offense and defense. Despite the game not having been released yet, some people have illustrated through discussion and blizzcon matches how creativity can go a long way...
...For example example,shield the pathways to your mineral line to protect probes (buy time for your ms to teleport in if its not at home base)...and if the enemy somehow gets around that and have detection to breech MS' cloaking, drop a vortex to retreat your probes.
The aoe slowdwould be a good way to intervene an incoming nuke. Sure, it doesn't interupt it, but maybe buy enough time to kill the ghost before it drops. (especially if a medivac is healing it- the slowdown would reduce the healing/second no?). In combination of shields, protoss could make a sound retreat without being overrun.
The mothership video was an excellent display of how to use the CC to decimate an army AND prevent the opposing force from doing anything about it. (I noticed that the second vortex sucked in some air units, including one corruptor and hydralisks, so the vortexes were casted for different purposes: one was to trap the army for a prepared colossi/ psi storm attack, the other to protect the mothership from zerg anti air)
As displayed in a 1v1 match, disruptors planted shields to prevent zerg army from running away. It gave marching zealots and colossi enough time to get in range and decimate them.
You can probably transit to cloak you entire expo, and if the enemy got detection you vortex your own probe (it don't do any damage beside targeted unit?) the time you army come in.
I cant wait to watch a TvP game where someone thinks they are so badass with their army supported by their awesome mothership...
And then it gets EMP'd.
Suddenly, it cannot teleport away, it has 100 less shields, it cannot use any abilities and all cloaked units are revealed for 5 seconds so you know exactly whats coming. All it can do is flee painfully slowly and attack. And no one at blizzard thinks that this isnt a very real possibility? That your 400m/400g unique mothership gets reduced to nothing in less time than it takes to tell? I mean, ghosts are expensive up front, but their spells dont need research and, lets face it, MS is at the top of the tech tree and EMP should be a common sight against toss, especially that late in the game.
No one else is worried by this?
Last I heard, Temporal Rift (Time Bomb) does:
There isn't Time Bomb ability any more in the current game and High Templar has Temporal Rift ability.
Temporal Rift creates a distortion field at the target location. Ground units caught inside of this field have their movement speed, attack speed, and ability cast times slowed by half. And it lasts 30 seconds.
http://www.worldofraids.com/wow-blue...ts-lasers.html
Yes its referring to the old HT ability, but if they just moved it back to the MS, having movement, attack rate and ability cast times cut in half is pretty darned powerful.
Well, that's the problem with putting all the eggs into the same basket. Specially when the eggs are spellcasters, and there's an instantaneous energy-wiping ability from a cloaked unit.Quote:
Originally Posted by KneeofJustice
Wormhole should be timeout-based.
I think that the Arbiter was much better. It died much quicker than a Mothership, and it's attack was useless, but you could build more than one, and it would be able to do nearly the same than a Mothership, and even more (Recall !!!). Not to mention, that while pretty slow, it had acceptable speed.
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It's a possibility, but ghosts are ground units, it's gonna be kinda hard to sneak up on the mothership and cast that spell if she's surrounded by her army. It'll be cloaked, and there will likely be observers nearby.Quote:
Suddenly, it cannot teleport away, it has 100 less shields, it cannot use any abilities and all cloaked units are revealed for 5 seconds so you know exactly whats coming. All it can do is flee painfully slowly and attack. And no one at blizzard thinks that this isnt a very real possibility?
Plus even with 100 less shields, she's not defenseless, and her energy will recharge quickly enough.
Part of the units purpose is that she's not a one-protoss army, she needs support and defense, she will easily be overwhelmed by enemy numbers.
Judging from the recent video, I can tell that Time Bomb (or whatever) slows unit movement, as the Ultralisk under it ran extra slow. However, I don't know if it still has any effect on projectiles. I'm thinking that its function/purpose is similar to the Corsair's Disruption Web.
And speaking of Phase Shift, I'm still pretty pissed that, last we heard, you can't use it on your own units.