Idea: Particle Path (Protoss Macro Mechanic)

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Name: Particle Path

Type: Active Ability

Tech level: 2.5

Resources: No energy, 2 gas units per second.

Caster:
http://www.sc2armory.com/img/protoss.../nullifier.jpg

Definition: A powerful beam emitted by the disruptor into a building under construction that reduces build-time by a fraction of the original time. Each second, the ability will consume 2 units of gas and reduce the build-time by 1/10 of the original value. The ability can't be stopped by the player. If the disruptor is destroyed while the ability is active, the building will take the original time to build.

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This ability will give the protoss a way to fast expand, like the terrans and the zergs. Other strategies will be possible, but my thoughts involve a key advantage for protoss' expanding. Zergs and Terrans expand "faster", each in its own way. Zerg's hatcheries are much cheaper and Terrans can lift command centers into new locations or use a "build, secure & expand" tactic.

Never mind.

The_Blade, dude, there is some kind of math going on with regards to stuff like the distinction between each race's expansion thingys. It's not just with units and combat, all of this are intertwined so that though each race receives certain lows and highs here and there, each one is balanced to each other.

This thing will cause another Hitler Parody on youtube.

I'm not even sure where to begin, there's just so much wrong with this idea >_<

Is it time for a Hitler Parody now?

Well, this idea was presented at first by a friend. At first, I was hesitant and didn't liked it. He sort of argued with me for a moment and eventually he made me like the idea in some way.

My point: Well, it is easy to bash out an idea that sounds strange or different. While if you present some of your own arguments you get the chance of making a constructive critic about the topic. (Doesn't applies to DS.) I don't like the idea very much, neither I hate it like the thor. Else, I feel it can improve and become a nice mechanic.

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Originally Posted by The_Blade

While if you present some of your own arguments you get the chance of making a constructive critic about the topic. (Doesn't applies to DS.)

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Rofl, DS doesn't apply lmao.

But the idea isn't that good. Maybe altering the stats...

I dunno. Why do Protoss need this? Pay up some extra gas to shave 12 seconds off Nexus build time? You're going to use this once, maybe twice per game? Doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Once you finish buildings, the ability has no use. It just doesn't sound fun or even worth my time to use, even if you tweaked the stats.

It's interesting to have increased build speed, but what do you mean by "reduce the build-time by 1/10 of the original value"? Considering that the ability uses 2 gas/second, it's still more confusing.
Why the ability cannot be stopped by the player? And why the ability does nothing if the Disruptor is destroyed? Where did all the gas go?

I've never been a fan of resource cost abilities. Call it theorycraft but this ability could be abused on a photon cannon rush.

I would say 'nay

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Originally Posted by The_Blade

My point: Well, it is easy to bash out an idea that sounds strange or different. While if you present some of your own arguments you get the chance of making a constructive critic about the topic. (Doesn't applies to DS.) I don't like the idea very much, neither I hate it like the thor. Else, I feel it can improve and become a nice mechanic.

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I know. Figures -- you weren't there back when we've discussed this sort of thing before. I feel sorry if I've somehow stepped on something you're serious about. I hope you're not attaching yourself to the idea too much.

My sincere apologies.

I think if you were to give the protoss the ability to increase build speed you would need to remove or nerf there abilty to warp in a buildings with out a worker standing ontop of it like the races seems like to big of a dvantage to have both, even late in the game.

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Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk

I know. Figures -- you weren't there back when we've discussed this sort of thing before. I feel sorry if I've somehow stepped on something you're serious about. I hope you're not attaching yourself to the idea too much.

My sincere apologies.

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No worries. I kind of followed the Macro Titan for a while, yet I didn't got into any serious devate. After some point it was just archer fighting his last stand, though.

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Originally Posted by screw_ball69

I think if you were to give the protoss the ability to increase build speed you would need to remove or nerf there abilty to warp in a buildings with out a worker standing ontop of it like the races seems like to big of a dvantage to have both, even late in the game.

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Guess that kills the ideas, and sets me back to my normal criteria level. Jeje, I just kind of thought out of the box for some time. Guess I just gave the idea a lot of expectations, yet it has to die.

Just as a note: Many new mechanics were builded this way, like the reactor and warp-in. Just guess this one didn't fit.

The protoss have such an hard time to build shit, of all the races

Interesting idea. However, this would not really balance the game any. Since we do not know sc2 figures just yet, let's assume building construction is balanced as in sc1 and see what this ability would do. Note before I start: time figures presented here are a combination of memory and educated guesses, please pay more attention to the concept of approximate balance as opposed to the numbers. Inserting the real numbers should provide a similar result. :)

Some assumptions: 1) all Terran and Zerg buildings started at the same time. 2) Expansion is not considered complete until the CC/Hatch/Nexus is complete

Terran: Average cost and build time structure, workers not sacrificed.

Zerg: Cheap cost and build times for buildings, but the worker is sacrificed.

Protoss: High cost, medium build times, but the worker only initiates the process.

Let's use a basic Sc1 set of T1 builds for an early game expansion.

Terran: 1 CC, 1 Barracks, 2 Supply Depots, 2 bunkers

Mineral cost: 950 plus 50 each for 6 SCVs is 1250 total. SCV cost is only a factor if all are SCVs are otherwise engaged. Let's make this assumption.

Approximate time cost is the time of producing the workers plus the time for the CC (the longest build of the bunch). Let's say 12 seconds per worker plus about 90 seconds for the CC for a total of (6x12)+90 = 162 seconds. Faster if you remove some or all of the workers from a nearly depleted mineral line, only the CC time of 90 seconds. Let's assume one SCV had to built, so time is now 90+12 = 102.

Zerg: 2 Hatch, 4 creep colony.

In this case, cost must include the drone figures because they are sacrificed for the build. Mineral cost: 300 plus 75x4 plus 50x6 = 900, plus any replacement drones that need to be made. Let's assume 6 for a mineral cost of 1200.

Time cost: drone: 10 sec, 80 sec for Hatch, 10 for replacement drone to mine resources = 100 sec. (approximately)

Note: some additional time and mineral cost must be considered if the drones need to be replaced immediately.

Protoss: 1 Nexus 4 pylon, 4 canon. Assume the Nexus is built first.

Mineral cost: 400+ 100x3 + 100x3 = 1200. Mineral cost is approximately balanced between the three races for this expansion. The extra cost seen here is recouped because only one worker need be moved. Similarly, the SCVs do not need to be replaced, and their cost is essentially spread across all the buildings on the map.

Time cost: Nexus 100 seconds. Similar to the SCV mineral cost spread, Probe time cost is spread over all buildings because only one probe is needed (barring destruction, of course). As probes build the medium time, let's add (11 sec/6 buildings = ) 2 seconds, which yields 102 seconds. Time is also approximately balanced. Perfect balance is not achieved because this would be impossible. This, as we can all attest to as SC1 players, is close enough.

Now let's add the proposed ability to protoss time cost. Let's assume the ability is cast on all 6 buildings so the nexus retains the highest time cost point. Let's assume also that 5 seconds have passed since the nexus build was initiated. Let's calculate the build time. Each second that ticks down has 10% of the original time cost added to it by the ability definition. So time remaining reduces by 11 each second

95/11 = 8.63636363 (63 repeats infinitely) which makes our Nexus now build in 5 expended seconds before ability useage plus 9 afterward = 14 seconds. The gas cost for each building (9x2 = 18 for the nexus plus the other buildings) would approach 100 gas with a much reduced time. Congratulations, you just destroyed the balance, unless you do something similar for the other races.

In sc2 terms, and Archer will no doubt comment on this macro addition, the obelisk/queen spawn larvae/whatever the terrans have imbalance compounds this imbalance.

Blade, your friend has a good idea, but the balance aspects are not so simple, as some as stated, even as simple as my example. A good idea that needs work. Maybe this could replace the obelisk ability in a nerfed form?

Edit: Blade, didn't see the second half of your most recent post, but using my example to start some balance work may be helpful. :)

Not sure if you factored it in, but the macro mechanics affect expansions as well. You broke down the basic cost and time used per individual builder, but there's a larger scope that you didn't cover - time it takes to fully cap out an expansion with workers.

Zerg can do this very quickly, if they have the resources to do so. Hatchery + Spawn Larvae means they can get 3 +4/SL drones at a time all at once. They can fully tap an expansion in a very short time.

Terrans can double produce SCVs (main + expo) while making use of MULE to make up for the time spent producing the first batch of SCV's. Terrans can also over-produce SCVs to make buildings, then send to expansion when buildings are completed

Protoss can double produce probes, but at the moment lack a macro mechanic as well as any secondary, use such as building creation. There's little reason to overproduce probes for an expansion. Protoss would be the slowest to reach expansion potential, in theory.

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Originally Posted by flak4321

In sc2 terms, and Archer will no doubt comment on this macro addition, the obelisk/queen spawn larvae/whatever the terrans have imbalance compounds this imbalance.

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Archer's comment:

MULEs. They are called MULEs.

Hmmm... I kind of like it.. But it should cost more I think. And, there should be a limit to how much 1 disruptor can do.

Additional to the gas cost (or replacing the gas cost entirely), why not have a shield drain as well? 2-3 disruptors worth of shields for a 75-50% build time nexus? Also, the shields of the newly constructed building should not be full. A percentage drop on shields for buildings constructed this way perhaps?

This way, the mechanic does not OP the protoss on offensive building tactics but still get that expansion advantage.

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Originally Posted by Triceron

Not sure if you factored it in, but the macro mechanics affect expansions as well. You broke down the basic cost and time used per individual builder, but there's a larger scope that you didn't cover - time it takes to fully cap out an expansion with workers.

Zerg can do this very quickly, if they have the resources to do so. Hatchery + Spawn Larvae means they can get 3 +4/SL drones at a time all at once. They can fully tap an expansion in a very short time.

Terrans can double produce SCVs (main + expo) while making use of MULE to make up for the time spent producing the first batch of SCV's. Terrans can also over-produce SCVs to make buildings, then send to expansion when buildings are completed

Protoss can double produce probes, but at the moment lack a macro mechanic as well as any secondary, use such as building creation. There's little reason to overproduce probes for an expansion. Protoss would be the slowest to reach expansion potential, in theory.

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Good response! I was only going so far as getting the buildings in place and static defenses. Beyond that, the complications rise exponentially. Choice of defense forces, number of workers to create/commit, offensive strategy around the board, and many more do affect this balance, without question. It would have been very difficult to take my example any further without risking brain overload. I greatly appreciate the help.

Note: I don't know how you guys would factor offensive strategy, but I'm thinking at minimum enough to prevent or slow your opponent, and/or their efforts to slow you while your expansion builds. This opens the door for the human factor and how we each would handle this plethora of strategic interplay, which can't be shown in the numbers.

"Archer's comment: MULEs. They are called MULEs."

Thanks. Had a brain fart there. I knew what they were and just couldn't remember the name. Overload symptom. :)

the idea is that in starcraft 2 the races's gameplay will be more different than in SC1. so leave the fast expanding to the zerg.

I'm posting this separately as it was an additional thought: Warcraft and Age of Empires each allow multiple workers to build a building, with WC at a minor additional resource cost per second. Why couldn't something similar work here? Terrans would be a straight copy, Zerg would be a partial copy wherein the additional drones could be made to "manipulate the growth" of the building while one drone would still be sacrificed, and Protoss would simply have multiple probes initiate the warp-in for a speed bonus. In addition, Protoss would now have a reason to over produce probes for an expansion, albeit a minor one. Or we could just implement Blade's original Protoss suggestion in this one's place.

OK ill wade in here. IMHO The speed boost mechanics you guys are talking about would be much more suited from research speed rather than building speed. Speeding up building speed, in addition to speeding up research speeds, also impacts defensive buildings, expansions, and unit production.

A much more focused approach is to give a race the ability speed up research speeds. This can be checked by the absolute building speeds of the research buildings. This allows you to create a tailored system where the player has to make choices about which research to boost without leading to things like fast tower rushs. Researching historically has rarely been "fleshed out" to its true potential, something which I believe makes it hard for new players to engage and learn and have fun with this portion of the game.

I am currently working on a proposal where multiple queens can speed zerg research much like WC3 humans peasant building.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

A much more focused approach is to give a race the ability speed up research speeds. This can be checked by the absolute building speeds of the research buildings. This allows you to create a tailored system where the player has to make choices about which research to boost without leading to things like fast tower rushs. Researching historically has rarely been "fleshed out" to its true potential, something which I believe makes it hard for new players to engage and learn and have fun with this portion of the game.

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Interesting. I will admit that a more focused ability can be more effective and easier to balance. More focus means less variables to deal with, usually. I like the research focus here as it is something I would definitely use, if only to open strategic options sooner.

I could see this benefitting each race if done correctly. I could see some abuses/excessive uses also. Example: a weak player would have to learn/adopt a more aggressive playstyle if his/her tier 1 units keep getting nuked before his/her tier 2 is reached. Not that this means the research speed up is OP, just used better by one player than another.

Macro abilities should be situational and not affect permanency. The common theme between all Macro abilities is that it's all relative and temporary. Even Spawn Larvae is not permanent, and the mechanic is a balance factor to other races having increased production methods (Terran Reactors, Protoss Warp Gates). Researches are permanent, and once you're finished all research, you have no use for the macro ability.

I'd rather see Zerg get something that's practical throughout the entire game. I'm also against putting an emphasis on quick research as an advantage. The few seconds you save off getting attack upgrade 1 or zergling move speed isn't going to help a whole lot in the full scope of the game unless you're intentionally rushing.

There are many factors against this idea that I just don't agree with. It's a unique take, but it's not a compelling cyclic function. It's like giving units more abilities that can only be used once.

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Originally Posted by Triceron

Macro abilities should be situational and not affect permanency. The common theme between all Macro abilities is that it's all relative and temporary. Even Spawn Larvae is not permanent, and the mechanic is a balance factor to other races having increased production methods (Terran Reactors, Protoss Warp Gates). Researches are permanent, and once you're finished all research, you have no use for the macro ability.

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Researches are permanent but their are many upgrades. In that same line of thought mining is permanent because you can run out of minerals.

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I'd rather see Zerg get something that's practical throughout the entire game. I'm also against putting an emphasis on quick research as an advantage. The few seconds you save off getting attack upgrade 1 or zergling move speed isn't going to help a whole lot in the full scope of the game unless you're intentionally rushing.

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Faster research is practical throughout the game and can in many situations be extremely benificial. Just ask the guy who was prediciting speed ultralisks while protoss still has stalkers :p

Which is a problem, not a tactical strategy.

It's the same problem the Soul Hunter faced, where it gets a permanent upgrade after killing 3 units. It's a unique feature, but it's not a compelling gameplay mechanic considering A: The mechanic doesn't change how you use the unit and B: The damage gap between new units and veteran units makes balance more difficult.

Like I said, the speed researching doesn't do much to affect the game as a whole - UNLESS you're planning on a rush. This affects rush strategies much more, and in effect, you're promoting rush/speed tech tactics.


Let me pose a question - Is there any legitimate reason not to use your Macro ability when you plan to research an ability? And I don't mean a bullshit excuse like "Because the queens used up all their energy lol"

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Originally Posted by Triceron

Let me pose a question - Is there any legitimate reason not to use your Macro ability when you plan to research an ability? And I don't mean a bullshit excuse like "Because the queens used up all their energy lol"

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Thats not a bulshit excuse at all. Your sacrificing additional larva (which is key) for faster researching. This is especially important because of scaling. Faster research is much more valuable the earlier in the game but so are additional larva.

That's ONLY if you consider Spawn Larvae a priority over research abilities. If this is is so, then your Macro idea fails, because the player is still choosing Spawn Larvae as a priority over a speed boost on a PERMANENT UPGRADE.

Otherwise, people would prioritize the Research Boost over Spawn Larvae every time. Why wouldn't you save energy for a research speed boost when you KNOW it's a one-time thing worth saving energy for?

This is like if you gave the Ghost an ability that cost 75 Energy and gives it a permanent +2 damage upgrade. Every new ghost you make will have this ability. This isn't a choice-driven mechanic. It's 75 energy that you could be using for any other ability, but you're only going to need to use it ONCE to get the permanent effect, why would you not?

Besides, Queens are not limited in Energy. You can make multiple queens, meaning you can benefit from Spawn Larvae on the side. The only case you have an energy limit is if you only had 1 queen, and research speed is not important to you (ie, you're not rushing).

The idea is to balance it so the player has choice in which strategy to take (more larva vs faster research). This is the same idea behind balancing MULEs and Scanner Sweep.

Your multiple queens arguement assumes that the player's production of queens can keep up with larva, research, healing and creep demands.

It's not a fair choice-driven mechanic. It's a binary choice of either using it, or not using it. There is no middle ground.

You have an ability that affects a permanent upgrade. Not using this ability is like telling a worker to stop mining. If the player decides to use this ability, they could wait on Spawn Larvae after the research finishes. For this player, there is no compelling reason not to research first since you only need to do it once. If you really need more energy, make more queens.

If the player values Spawn Larvae over research as a decision, then it proves the mechanic does not work - because it's valuing a situational production boost over a PERMANENT upgrade. To this player, research speed would be a waste of energy. This is akin to the PC vs Energy/Shield Battery mechanic that just didn't work. Shield Battery was considered a waste of PC energy.

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Originally Posted by Triceron

It's not a fair choice-driven mechanic. It's a binary choice of either using it, or not using it. There is no middle ground.

You have an ability that affects a permanent upgrade. Not using this ability is like telling a worker to stop mining. If the player decides to use this ability, they could wait on Spawn Larvae after the research finishes. For this player, there is no compelling reason not to research first since you only need to do it once. If you really need more energy, make more queens.

If the player values Spawn Larvae over research as a decision, then it proves the mechanic does not work - because it's valuing a situational production boost over a PERMANENT upgrade. To this player, research speed would be a waste of energy. This is akin to the PC vs Energy/Shield Battery mechanic that just didn't work. Shield Battery was considered a waste of PC energy.

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Once again balanced so the player has to decide whether they want faster larva or faster research. You could cast research and wait for more larva to appear. Or you could cast larva and wait for research to finish.

Consider the choice between a worker mining or making a building. It's a decision that affects impacts early game, since resources are scarce. As the game progresses and you gain more workers, this has relatively no economical impact since you can make buildings and gain resources at the same time. The choice of using a worker to mine or make a building is completely a non-issue when you have an abundance of workers.

Spawn Larvae and Research falls into this bell curve situation, where the choice impacts your early game the most, but after that becomes a non-issue. Just like if taking workers away to make buildings.

What is the choice for your workers? Priority is mining. You take em off the line only when you need to make a building. The same is for research. You will spend energy on SL until you need to research, at which point you take 1 queen and dedicate it there. After research is done, you continue focusing on SL.

There is no persistent choice-driven mechanic. Compare this to the persistent choice of whether to use MULE or save energy to COMSAT. The importance of both abilities does not bell curve in any phase of the game. You will want to save energy for both abilties and choose to spend on either when the situation asks for it. There is no situation that will force you to use Research over SL, because ultimately you control the situation.

How many upgrades in the Zerg tech tree? Id count but im busy handling the Beta investigation.

15 for the general upgrades (5*3), plus the individual unit upgrades and abilities.

How much total?

Okay, 15 + Burrow = 16, then we get into the individual ones:
Drone: 0
Zergling: 2
Queen: 0
Baneling: 1
Hydralisk: 1
Roach: 1
Infestor: 4
Lurker: 1
Ultralisk: 1
Overlord: 3
Overseer: 1
Mutalisk: 0
Corruptor: 1
Brood Lord: 0

So that's 32 altogether including abilities, but that's going just by what they've said, rather than by what we think there'd be (like power limit upgrades for every spellcaster), and some of the abilities could be made researchable rather than ready-equipped at a later date. For now though, it's 32.

ok good so I just wanted to point out something. Lets say you did a research every 30 seconds like SL, MULE, and PC. Do know when you would run out of abilities to research? About minute 15. And the average game length is 20.

Oh, my, Arch, it just struck me. What if macro abilities like that of PC actually slow down (or totally disable) probe production while it is active? Have you met an idea like this before?

My apologies for the off-topic.

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Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk

Oh, my, Arch, it just struck me. What if macro abilities like that of PC actually slow down (or totally disable) probe production while it is active? Have you met an idea like this before?

My apologies for the off-topic.

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A macro mechanic that discourages macroing? No we havn't explored that avenue yet :p


I know you guys have the best intentions but sometimes it really seems like micro favored players are trying to diminish macro. You cant borrow macro from peter to pay paul.

Research in the game could have been made instant, but the Research Time mechanic is put in place for a very specific reason. It paces game so that players can upgrade their units, but they can't gain a huge advantage due to the time it takes between each upgrade. Messing around with the pacing is not a good thing.

And again, macro mechanics that affect permanency is NOT a viable option. The fact you can make limitless Queens means you don't have to worry about competing energy between SL and Research. You can have 1 queen dedicated to research at all times, meaning Zerg gets X bonus to research always. If a Zerg player is even interested in increased research speed, they can afford 1 queen for that X% speed bonus.

Bottom line is you're only giving Zerg a tech advantage. There's no interesting choice involved. It's not a choice, it's a binary option.