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I know. Figures -- you weren't there back when we've discussed this sort of thing before. I feel sorry if I've somehow stepped on something you're serious about. I hope you're not attaching yourself to the idea too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Blade
My sincere apologies.
I think if you were to give the protoss the ability to increase build speed you would need to remove or nerf there abilty to warp in a buildings with out a worker standing ontop of it like the races seems like to big of a dvantage to have both, even late in the game.
No worries. I kind of followed the Macro Titan for a while, yet I didn't got into any serious devate. After some point it was just archer fighting his last stand, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk
Guess that kills the ideas, and sets me back to my normal criteria level. Jeje, I just kind of thought out of the box for some time. Guess I just gave the idea a lot of expectations, yet it has to die.Quote:
Originally Posted by screw_ball69
Just as a note: Many new mechanics were builded this way, like the reactor and warp-in. Just guess this one didn't fit.
The protoss have such an hard time to build shit, of all the races
Interesting idea. However, this would not really balance the game any. Since we do not know sc2 figures just yet, let's assume building construction is balanced as in sc1 and see what this ability would do. Note before I start: time figures presented here are a combination of memory and educated guesses, please pay more attention to the concept of approximate balance as opposed to the numbers. Inserting the real numbers should provide a similar result. :)
Some assumptions: 1) all Terran and Zerg buildings started at the same time. 2) Expansion is not considered complete until the CC/Hatch/Nexus is complete
Terran: Average cost and build time structure, workers not sacrificed.
Zerg: Cheap cost and build times for buildings, but the worker is sacrificed.
Protoss: High cost, medium build times, but the worker only initiates the process.
Let's use a basic Sc1 set of T1 builds for an early game expansion.
Terran: 1 CC, 1 Barracks, 2 Supply Depots, 2 bunkers
Mineral cost: 950 plus 50 each for 6 SCVs is 1250 total. SCV cost is only a factor if all are SCVs are otherwise engaged. Let's make this assumption.
Approximate time cost is the time of producing the workers plus the time for the CC (the longest build of the bunch). Let's say 12 seconds per worker plus about 90 seconds for the CC for a total of (6x12)+90 = 162 seconds. Faster if you remove some or all of the workers from a nearly depleted mineral line, only the CC time of 90 seconds. Let's assume one SCV had to built, so time is now 90+12 = 102.
Zerg: 2 Hatch, 4 creep colony.
In this case, cost must include the drone figures because they are sacrificed for the build. Mineral cost: 300 plus 75x4 plus 50x6 = 900, plus any replacement drones that need to be made. Let's assume 6 for a mineral cost of 1200.
Time cost: drone: 10 sec, 80 sec for Hatch, 10 for replacement drone to mine resources = 100 sec. (approximately)
Note: some additional time and mineral cost must be considered if the drones need to be replaced immediately.
Protoss: 1 Nexus 4 pylon, 4 canon. Assume the Nexus is built first.
Mineral cost: 400+ 100x3 + 100x3 = 1200. Mineral cost is approximately balanced between the three races for this expansion. The extra cost seen here is recouped because only one worker need be moved. Similarly, the SCVs do not need to be replaced, and their cost is essentially spread across all the buildings on the map.
Time cost: Nexus 100 seconds. Similar to the SCV mineral cost spread, Probe time cost is spread over all buildings because only one probe is needed (barring destruction, of course). As probes build the medium time, let's add (11 sec/6 buildings = ) 2 seconds, which yields 102 seconds. Time is also approximately balanced. Perfect balance is not achieved because this would be impossible. This, as we can all attest to as SC1 players, is close enough.
Now let's add the proposed ability to protoss time cost. Let's assume the ability is cast on all 6 buildings so the nexus retains the highest time cost point. Let's assume also that 5 seconds have passed since the nexus build was initiated. Let's calculate the build time. Each second that ticks down has 10% of the original time cost added to it by the ability definition. So time remaining reduces by 11 each second
95/11 = 8.63636363 (63 repeats infinitely) which makes our Nexus now build in 5 expended seconds before ability useage plus 9 afterward = 14 seconds. The gas cost for each building (9x2 = 18 for the nexus plus the other buildings) would approach 100 gas with a much reduced time. Congratulations, you just destroyed the balance, unless you do something similar for the other races.
In sc2 terms, and Archer will no doubt comment on this macro addition, the obelisk/queen spawn larvae/whatever the terrans have imbalance compounds this imbalance.
Blade, your friend has a good idea, but the balance aspects are not so simple, as some as stated, even as simple as my example. A good idea that needs work. Maybe this could replace the obelisk ability in a nerfed form?
Edit: Blade, didn't see the second half of your most recent post, but using my example to start some balance work may be helpful. :)
Not sure if you factored it in, but the macro mechanics affect expansions as well. You broke down the basic cost and time used per individual builder, but there's a larger scope that you didn't cover - time it takes to fully cap out an expansion with workers.
Zerg can do this very quickly, if they have the resources to do so. Hatchery + Spawn Larvae means they can get 3 +4/SL drones at a time all at once. They can fully tap an expansion in a very short time.
Terrans can double produce SCVs (main + expo) while making use of MULE to make up for the time spent producing the first batch of SCV's. Terrans can also over-produce SCVs to make buildings, then send to expansion when buildings are completed
Protoss can double produce probes, but at the moment lack a macro mechanic as well as any secondary, use such as building creation. There's little reason to overproduce probes for an expansion. Protoss would be the slowest to reach expansion potential, in theory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flak4321
Archer's comment:
MULEs. They are called MULEs.
Hmmm... I kind of like it.. But it should cost more I think. And, there should be a limit to how much 1 disruptor can do.
Additional to the gas cost (or replacing the gas cost entirely), why not have a shield drain as well? 2-3 disruptors worth of shields for a 75-50% build time nexus? Also, the shields of the newly constructed building should not be full. A percentage drop on shields for buildings constructed this way perhaps?
This way, the mechanic does not OP the protoss on offensive building tactics but still get that expansion advantage.
Good response! I was only going so far as getting the buildings in place and static defenses. Beyond that, the complications rise exponentially. Choice of defense forces, number of workers to create/commit, offensive strategy around the board, and many more do affect this balance, without question. It would have been very difficult to take my example any further without risking brain overload. I greatly appreciate the help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron
Note: I don't know how you guys would factor offensive strategy, but I'm thinking at minimum enough to prevent or slow your opponent, and/or their efforts to slow you while your expansion builds. This opens the door for the human factor and how we each would handle this plethora of strategic interplay, which can't be shown in the numbers.
"Archer's comment: MULEs. They are called MULEs."
Thanks. Had a brain fart there. I knew what they were and just couldn't remember the name. Overload symptom. :)
the idea is that in starcraft 2 the races's gameplay will be more different than in SC1. so leave the fast expanding to the zerg.